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OfflineSenselessRebel
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Pan. Subbs?? Foes?? Neither???
    #5794318 - 06/26/06 10:54 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

hey guys i found these in MD over on the NIH campus in some grass. sorry the pictures aren't very good. my camera is literly falling apart. well heres the pics there are 6 caps. its been raining at NIH very very hard for the past 2 days so they were a very very dark color when i found them and i thought i picked 3 of 2 different kinds but now that they are dryer, they seem to be the same and their spore prints are both (i think) black. the stems have that texture on them like the subbs do. there are very prominent vertical lines running up and down the stem they definitely do not have a brown spore print like the mushrooms i found in my neighborhood (foes probably) but i was wondering if these were subbs??? or wether they are pans at all. thanks guys and heres the pics...





i'll post more pics as soon as i can cuz my limit is up for now but i'll post more tomarrow and probably have more mushrooms tomarrow
-SenselessRebel


Edited by SenselessRebel (06/26/06 10:56 PM)


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InvisibleCureCat
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Re: Pan. Subbs?? Foes?? Neither??? [Re: SenselessRebel]
    #5794407 - 06/26/06 11:24 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Those are most certainly Panaeolus, and most likely Pan. subbalteatus.  :smile:  The pics aren't so bad, cept for the one up-close shot.  Can you get a photo of the spore prints??  I bet they are black, but if you are unsure, I am certain some people here on the board can tell you if it's black or brown.  They look just like the subbs I have been finding, the gills are darker than foes and the stems appear to have a reddish-brown tint.
Nice Finds!!


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Invisiblebaycafe
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Re: Pan. Subbs?? Foes?? Neither??? [Re: CureCat]
    #5795661 - 06/27/06 11:54 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

They look alot more like the foenisecii than subbalteatus though the spore print would be a better indicator than the pics in this case.


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OfflineSenselessRebel
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Re: Pan. Subbs?? Foes?? Neither??? [Re: baycafe]
    #5800202 - 06/28/06 05:43 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

yea i found a shit load more today and yesterday and its been raining for the past three days!! my basement carpet is all wet!! lookslike im going to ahve to pull it up and get tile...fuck....
oh well
thos pics up there, there prints are black as night :smile: so that definitely means their p.subs??????
i found many many more!!
i hope they are subbs that would boost me sooooo much
today was the first day since sunday that it hasn't poored buckets of water from the clouds! and mushrooms are EVERYWHERE!! i found tons of other ones andim going to post em up on new threads. so since the prints are black they are definitely subbs????
can anyone else varify????

thanks guys(and chicks :smile: )
-SenselessRebel


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Invisiblemjshroomer
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Re: Pan. Subbs?? Foes?? Neither??? [Re: SenselessRebel]
    #5800265 - 06/28/06 06:03 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Just because the sporeprints may or may not be black is not an indication that the musrhooms are Panaeolus subbalteatus.

First off there are 22 species of Panaeolus in the genera.

About four of those are close to Pn. subbs but are only similar macroscopically. Under the microscope they are probably something other than P. subbalteatus. maybe olivaceus or microsporus, however, all the microsporus collected in the wild showed no chemical actrivity but the ones cultivated indoors did.

The stems look awful sinewy to be subbalteatus. They do resemble the typical Panaeolina foenisecii Maire.

mj


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Offlinepsychonaut_420
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Re: Pan. Subbs?? Foes?? Neither??? [Re: SenselessRebel]
    #5800475 - 06/28/06 07:19 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

i have been looking around in MD today too, but didnt find any actives but i did find some mushrooms that were in the paneoulous genus


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OfflineSenselessRebel
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Re: Pan. Subbs?? Foes?? Neither??? [Re: SenselessRebel]
    #5800598 - 06/28/06 08:06 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

huh...welll...can i eat em??? OR WILL IT KILL ME OR GET ME SICK!??!?!?!?!
also, if edible mushrooms are in a bag with poisonus ones and then i eat only the edible ones will i get sick/die???
thanks guys and what should i do about these pans??? i have tons of em and i wanna eat em!!
haha
thanks guys
-SenselessRebel


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OfflineSenselessRebel
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Re: Pan. Subbs?? Foes?? Neither??? [Re: SenselessRebel]
    #5800671 - 06/28/06 08:25 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

here is the spore prints from thos pics up top there

-SenselessRebel

mjshroomer should i put some of these spores under a microscope??? i only got one that goes to donno it says DIN40 0.65 on it sooo donno hhow much that is but what shouild they look like if they are subbs???
thanks


Edited by SenselessRebel (06/28/06 08:36 PM)


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OfflineSenselessRebel
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Re: Pan. Subbs?? Foes?? Neither??? [Re: SenselessRebel]
    #5800720 - 06/28/06 08:38 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

heres what i found yesterday

-SenslessRebel


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InvisibleCureCat
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Re: Pan. Subbs?? Foes?? Neither??? [Re: SenselessRebel]
    #5803221 - 06/29/06 01:02 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Nice nice... from what I have read, there are no poisonous mushrooms within the genus Panaeolus. Others on the board have concurred. They have been known to cause some stomach upsets for sensitive individuals. So as far as I know, you wouldn't die from consuming accurately identified Pan. mushrooms (perhaps PM a few of the pros for verification- i did, and they confirmed my suspicion).

Also, I don't stress about throwing a few poisonous mushrooms into my bag of otherwise edible finds- so long as the poisonous ones aren't squishing all over the edibles in the bag as you romp around hunting... As long as you are confident in your ability to sort the poisonous mushrooms from the edibles, which I would not trust most people to do. One mix up could mean liver failure.


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OfflineSenselessRebel
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Re: Pan. Subbs?? Foes?? Neither??? [Re: CureCat]
    #5804248 - 06/29/06 06:28 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

hey wanna give me a list of the "pros"
if you wanna don't worry bout it but
yea me too cure i also have found that no other pans are poisonus but yea i think they are subbs cuz i used my mushrooms demistifyed and used the di. keys in it (assumeing they are pans) anyone out there have any reason to think different??? i got a handfull more today too so...hope they are good!! :smile:))))
thanks guys(chicks)
-SenselessRebel


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OfflineSenselessRebel
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Re: Pan. Subbs?? Foes?? Neither??? [Re: SenselessRebel]
    #5806608 - 06/30/06 11:43 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

well i think im gonna try em tonight with my friend donno its not too much but i think im gonna pm some mods like cure suggested so thanks cure
but as stated before i definitely havn't come accross anything that says any pans are deadly poisonus.
ive used my dicot. keys in my mushrooms demistifyed book and it led to subbs
later
-SenselessRebel


Edited by SenselessRebel (06/30/06 11:52 AM)


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Offlineate
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Re: Pan. Subbs?? Foes?? Neither??? [Re: SenselessRebel]
    #5809449 - 07/01/06 11:25 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Any update?

It rained heavily here in southern MD for the past week and those are growing all over the place.


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Invisiblemjshroomer
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Re: Pan. Subbs?? Foes?? Neither??? [Re: CureCat]
    #5809537 - 07/01/06 11:55 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

CureCat said:
Quote:

Also, I don't stress about throwing a few poisonous mushrooms into my bag of otherwise edible finds- so long as the poisonous ones aren't squishing all over the edibles in the bag as you romp around hunting.




Never under any circumstances should anyone ever put any poisonous or different shrooms into their collection bags.

This is the stupidist advice I have ever heard.

A piece of a mushroom can easily break off into sevral poieces while romping and lodge itself into the cap of an edible or active shroom. I have seen this happen with people in the rain forest clearcuts in the PNW who were collecting P. pelliculosa in late November and had dozens of Galerina and Conocybe species in their bags. I have also seen people who pick liberty caps throuw other shroonms in their bags, and from people in Hawaii who collected Copelandia have numerous specimens of both Panaeolus sphinctrinus and/or Panaeolus antillarum in their bags.
Upon examing some of those collections I have found bits and pieces of broken shrooms lodged in the caps of the P. pelliculosa species, in caps of P. semilanceata and caps of Copes with Panaeolus sphinctr4inus and P. antillarum.

So please do not giove this advice to anyone.

I am sorry but I really cannot write anymore about this. As i noted above, that was reeally stupid advise to give to pickers CureCat. Let alone even suggesting it.

mj


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InvisibleCureCat
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Re: Pan. Subbs?? Foes?? Neither??? [Re: mjshroomer]
    #5809596 - 07/01/06 12:18 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

mjshroomer said:
CureCat said:
Quote:

Also, I don't stress about throwing a few poisonous mushrooms into my bag of otherwise edible finds- so long as the poisonous ones aren't squishing all over the edibles in the bag as you romp around hunting.




Never under any circumstances should anyone ever put any poisonous or different shrooms into their collection bags.

This is the stupidist advice I have ever heard.

A piece of a mushroom can easily break off into sevral poieces while romping and lodge itself into the cap of an edible or active shroom. I have seen this happen with people in the rain forest clearcuts in the PNW who were collecting P. pelliculosa in late November and had dozens of Galerina and Conocybe species in their bags. I have also seen people who pick liberty caps throuw other shroonms in their bags, and from people in Hawaii who collected Copelandia have numerous specimens of both Panaeolus sphinctrinus and/or Panaeolus antillarum in their bags.
Upon examing some of those collections I have found bits and pieces of broken shrooms lodged in the caps of the P. pelliculosa species, in caps of P. semilanceata and caps of Copes with Panaeolus sphinctr4inus and P. antillarum.

So please do not giove this advice to anyone.

I am sorry but I really cannot write anymore about this. As i noted above, that was reeally stupid advise to give to pickers CureCat. Let alone even suggesting it.

mj




I simply said that is what I do, but then I am extremely meticulous. I have read your discouragement of the habit, but I will not lie to people, simply to be on the "safe side", I prefer to explain the potential dangers or problems with a method, and if there are ways of avoiding it, explain. I think I explained that, if you are going to be rough with your collection, pieces of poisonous mushrooms could squish up against an edible- No good- or as you described, a piece could break off and become lodged in the gills. That being said, i think it is evident that you would look over your finds to make sure they are clean of any debri. If that was Not Clear, I am sorry for the miscommunication.
That is my method- as I said, I am very thorough with looking every specimen over. I did not advise it, I was responding to the question subjectively, as I see both sides of the coin (why not mix edibles and potentially poisonous mushrooms/ how to avoid the dangers).

Now, do you consider there to be any further dangers to this method beside the ones covered, that I have not addressed?? If so, inform me. I have no death wish, for myself or others.


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Invisiblemjshroomer
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Re: Pan. Subbs?? Foes?? Neither??? [Re: CureCat]
    #5810124 - 07/01/06 03:34 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

While that may have sounded agressive, CureCat, I apologize, However, I am just curious as to why you would collect poisonous mushrooms in your bags to begin with. Otherwise, most of the advice you give here is okay. I just felt the need to question that statement that you made about doing so.

Since I am on the subject, another point I want to mention is regarding the toxic bluing boletes since you recently brought them up in a reply to another post..

Over the years I have taught mushroom ID workshops and lectured at many conferences around the world.

Usually when I teach people to pick active shrooms, I always try to show them in detail, what they should not pick.

If someone is looking for magic shrooms they can knock out the majority of the deadly poisonous mushrooms by following a few simple rules.

One. You should be looking for magic shrooms with gills (Agaricales). Not musrhooms with pores (Boletes). The magic shrooms you are looking for should have Black (Panaeolus-Copelandia spp.) or chocolate-brown to purple-brown spores and spore prints (Psilocybes).

Forget the minor species of Gymnopilus and and Inocybes and those species which have white orange-cinnamon colored gills and prints. Elimenate those species.

Now. Do not pick any orange to cinnamon colored shrooms. The 3 dealdy species of Galerina and one species of Concoybe (C. filaris) have orange gills. AS noted above. They6 are deadly.

And avoid any white gilled shrooms. That would include all of the deadly Amanita mushrooms such as A. Phalloides, A. verna, etc.

Therefore regards of the mentioning of the bluing Boletes, you should always mention they are not gilled mushrooms so there is no need to bring them up except to verify they should not be eaten,

Later,

mj


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Offlineeris
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Re: Pan. Subbs?? Foes?? Neither??? [Re: mjshroomer]
    #5810181 - 07/01/06 03:57 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

I am just curious as to why you would collect poisonous mushrooms in your bags to begin with




I collect them sometimes, just for the sake of taking pictures or spore prints for later at home identification. At the same time, I don't throw them in the same bags with edibles or something I might eat.

Some days I go out just hunting edibles and that will be all that I put in my bags.

Other days, I will pick just about everything I find, for hobby and not plan to eat any of it ahead of time. When I already know I'm not gonna eat anything I don't care what gets in the same bag.

The proper practice for mushroom hunting is to store each collection individually by species. This is for those who hope to consume their collections.


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Invisiblemjshroomer
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Re: Pan. Subbs?? Foes?? Neither??? [Re: eris]
    #5810206 - 07/01/06 04:10 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Good point Eris.

O also separate shrooms when collec ting for prints and I wipe hands with those handi wipes before handing a second species. I would hate to sell someone a cope pritn and cubes grow because my hands had been handling other shrooms prior to picking the copes.

Some buffalo dung heaps in Thailand can have three to four species fruiging form the same large trurds. AS many here known I have show how big some of those buffalo heaps can be.

I have images of Copelandia,cubes, concocybe and Panaeolus sphintrinus i9 the same manure piles.

Anyway, idf collecting multiple species of mixed shrooms then use separate bags. If you want to mix yyour edibles together, there is no harm in that, but only if one knowns what they are doing.
mj


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InvisibleCureCat
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Re: Pan. Subbs?? Foes?? Neither??? [Re: mjshroomer]
    #5810608 - 07/01/06 07:07 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

mjshroomer said:
I am just curious as to why you would collect poisonous mushrooms in your bags to begin with. 

mj




I will address the bolete question when I return from work, I forget the context and need to look for the post to recall my reason for metnioning it.

As far as collecting poisonous specimens, I have not yet consumed any of my finds.  All of the mushrooms I have collected have been purely for the purpose of research, identification and experience.  I enjoy simply picking different species and examining them. 
I admit, when picking Pan. subbs which I intended to dry for later indulgence, I tended to avoid picking too many mushrooms I knew were poisonoues, hehe.  Not because I worried of later sorting them with my subbs so much, as I was worried the subbs would crush the poisonous finds and become inedible (i had a lot of subbs in a little bag).
I have moved into my new house and am looking forward to finally trying out these mushrooms on the 4th of July.  :smile:


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Re: Pan. Subbs?? Foes?? Neither??? [Re: CureCat]
    #5810655 - 07/01/06 07:26 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

mjshroomer said :
Quote:


Please try not to keep furthering the misidentification of mycological names of shrooms if you do not have knowledge of the nomencalture of the species.





Panaeolus foenisecii has always been used in countless publications over the years.....

In Stamets 96 ' he states :
( P M o t W )
" The fractionation of such a closely knit, naturally allied group of species into seperate genera seems artificial and uneccessary . Guzman and Perez - Patraca's ( 1972 ) treatment of the genus seems the most sensible to me : Each of the above - named groups is a subgenera within an expanded concept of Panaeolus . Gerhardt (1987, 1996 ) further articulated the case for an expanded genus. Georges M. Ola'h , after spending a lifetime studying these fungi, currently believes the taxonomy of these species are better served under Panaeolus as one genus. Therefore for taxonomic clarity, I consider these genera or subgenera to be accurately represented under the epiphet of one genus Panaeolus sensu lato - Panaeolus in the broadest sense ."

Also......under Stamets section for this mushroom in Stamets 96 ' ( P M o t W ) he has headed as the nomencalture of the species as Panaeolus foenisecii (Fries ) Kuhner


Please try not to keep furthering the misidentification of mycological names of shrooms if you do not have knowledge of the nomencalture of the species.

Click.....
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=5390043&dopt=Abstract
http://www.erowid.org/plants/mushrooms/mushrooms_article4.shtml
http://www.mushroomexpert.com/panaeolus_foenisecii.html
EDIT :
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=Panaeolus+foenisecii&btnG=Search
http://www.google.com/search?q=Panaeolus+foenisecii&hl=en&lr=&start=10&sa=N


--------------------
Worlds Largest 'Liberty Cap' (Cali Libs Confirmed !)
' Comments On Hallucinogenic Agarics And The Hallucinations Of Those Who Study Them '
Alexander H. Smith
Mycologia vol.69 1977


Edited by shroominDole (07/02/06 02:05 AM)


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