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InvisibletrendalM
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MDMA may damage the brain's defenses
    #5791821 - 06/26/06 10:19 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Just a heads-up on some current research for anyone who uses or is thinking about using MDMA!

Ecstasy may damage the brain’s physical defences

The drug ecstasy reduces the brain’s defences, reveals a new study of rats, leaving it vulnerable to invasion by viruses and other pathogens.

The researchers behind the study warn of "clinical considerations which may apply to the treatment of people who abuse MDMA". For example, anaesthetics could find it easier to penetrate the brain, "greatly increasing the risk of unwanted sedation". And they say infections could cause permanent damage to brain cells or alter the ability of the brain to function normally.

The brain is protected by a fence of tightly packed cells, called the blood-brain barrier. This prevents all but the smallest molecules from passing through. But the new experiments show that MDMA – the chemical name for ecstasy, or “E” – somehow forces open that barrier, allowing larger molecules access to the brain.

Bryan Yamamoto at Boston University, US, and colleagues gave rats four doses of MDMA over 8 hours. “We were trying to approximate a human dosaging pattern,” says Yamamoto. The scientists also injected a blue dye, made of molecules too large to get into the rats' brains under normal circumstances.

One day later, the researchers found the dye had made its way into parts of the brain, such as the caudate and the hippocampus. Ten weeks later, despite no further doses of MDMA being given, new injections of dye were still passing through the blood brain barrier.

Ten weeks in rats could be considered the equivalent of five to seven years in humans. “It does seem to be a very protracted opening,” says Yamamoto. But, as yet, he is unable to say for sure whether the breach is permanent.
Prior protection

Other new research on MDMA has investigated "binges" of ecstasy-taking in rats. Scientists found that rats exposed to many single doses of ecstasy as adolescents are protected from much of the harm caused by e-binges as adults.

Jerrold Meyer at the University of Massachusetts in Amherst, US, and colleagues gave pre-pubescent rats two doses of ecstasy over 4 hours, then repeated that every five days, until young adulthood - a total of 12 doses.

After a period to allow the rats to clear the drug from their bodies, they received up to four times the previous dose spread only over a few hours. The researchers monitored such things as body temperature, body weight and behaviour. A week later, their brains were studied for signs of neurotoxicity.

Typically after a big ecstasy binge, animals suffer hyperthermia, fatigue and lethargy and sustain damage to serotonin axons – the long fibres extending from serotonin-containing neurons. All these features were observed in control rats.

But the rats that had been pre-exposed to the drug were spared these symptoms, including damage to their serotonin system. “Exposure does have this powerful effect to protect animals,” says Meyer.
Therapeutic use

Whether any prior exposure, or only exposure during adolescence, can protect humans this way is not yet clear. “My hunch is that it might be specific to the adolescent period,” Mayer says.

But the mechanism remains a mystery. Among the possibilities is that the pre-exposed animals may be metabolising the drug more quickly, he says, or they may be ratcheting up antioxidant activity in their bodies, or they may be modifying their serotonin receptors.

Not all research on MDMA is into its negative effects. Stephanie Linley at Florida Atlantic University in Port St Lucie points out that the drug is now being investigated for clinical use in diseases as wide-ranging as schizophrenia, post-traumatic stress disorder and terminal cancer.

These papers were presented at the Society for Neuroscience annual meeting, in Washington DC, US.

http://www.newscientist.com/channel/heal...l-defences.html


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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InvisibleMezcal
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Re: MDMA may damage the brain's defenses [Re: trendal]
    #5791899 - 06/26/06 11:35 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Interesting stuff...

I've talked with Dr. Meyer before, he's a truly interesting fellow.

And I can personally attest to the fact that anaesthetics work much more effectively on MDMA- I literally passed out Friday night after 200mg MDMA and a single whippit. Usually I can handle a lot more than just one hit of N2O.


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OfflineJalruza
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Re: MDMA may damage the brain's defenses [Re: Mezcal]
    #5792031 - 06/26/06 12:26 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Yamamoto is a jack ass and this reserch is bogus


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InvisibleMushie_Man
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Re: MDMA may damage the brain's defenses [Re: Jalruza]
    #5792118 - 06/26/06 12:51 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Jalruza said:
Yamamoto is a jack ass and this reserch is bogus




Much of an MDMA user yourself?


--------------------
Ecstacy got me standing next to you
Getting sentimental as fuck spillin' guts to you
We just met
But I think I'm in love with you
But you're on it too
So you tell me you love me too
Wake up in the morning like "yo, what the fuck we do?"


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OfflineJalruza
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Re: MDMA may damage the brain's defenses [Re: Mushie_Man]
    #5792152 - 06/26/06 01:03 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

I do enjoy occasional roll......


--------------------
Time keeps ticking and running away
And It's taking us fast to a brand new free dimension
Too cool to mention well that's the intention
But some of us too dame blind to see
Jesus is the King Volume I
Jesus is the King Volume II
Shroomery MSN club
I'm talking to aliens!
Volcano Vap and Brain Chakras
Hilary Duff!!
:gethigh:


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Offlinehabitat0789
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Re: MDMA may damage the brain's defenses [Re: Jalruza]
    #5792178 - 06/26/06 01:14 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

im pretty much done with E, this kinda eases the pain a little


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ilove my woods...


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: MDMA may damage the brain's defenses [Re: trendal]
    #5792228 - 06/26/06 01:34 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

A few things to remember...

Almost all illegal drug research is biased. I don't believe a word of it until I read the methods and procedures and see two or three peer labs duplicate the results. Too many "we sufficated a monkey with cannabis smoke and it died therefore cannabis is deadly" or "we fed methamphetamines to a bunch of rats and then published a paper talking about the results of MDMA on the brain" type of crap. Also, a rat is not a person, typically... drugs often effect a rat differently than a person.

If MDMA does help other drugs pass the BBB, this could be big news for cancer treatments and the like. Many forms of cancer (and other) drugs cannot work on the brain because they cannot make it past the BBB.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: MDMA may damage the brain's defenses [Re: trendal]
    #5792424 - 06/26/06 02:44 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

one thing... rats are not humans.

Ever read Pihkal? That's real research. Test it on humans extensively first, and then post your conclusions. Animal testing is so bogus. Scientists that say "it does this to rats/dogs/monkeys/whatever so it must be the exact same for humans", is not science.


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InvisibleMezcal
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Re: MDMA may damage the brain's defenses [Re: Seuss]
    #5792513 - 06/26/06 03:18 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
A few things to remember...

Almost all illegal drug research is biased.




Meyer's lab is legit. He's a forward-thinking, grounded, true scientist with no preconceived notions about his results. He develops unique methods and executes his research with all of his attention to its scientific validity. I can't say the same thing about all MDMA researchers, but I can testify on his behalf.


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Offlinebarfightlard
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Re: MDMA may damage the brain's defenses [Re: Mezcal]
    #5792590 - 06/26/06 03:46 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

May be legit, but it's still flawed.


--------------------

"What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I fuck, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?" - Bill Hicks


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: MDMA may damage the brain's defenses [Re: Mezcal]
    #5792619 - 06/26/06 03:59 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

snyder said:

Meyer's lab is legit. He's a forward-thinking, grounded, true scientist with no preconceived notions about his results. He develops unique methods and executes his research with all of his attention to its scientific validity. I can't say the same thing about all MDMA researchers, but I can testify on his behalf.




Rats are not people. Therefore, it's invalid.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: MDMA may damage the brain's defenses [Re: Shroomism]
    #5792673 - 06/26/06 04:17 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

> Rats are not people. Therefore, it's invalid.

I doubt Meyer made any claim that what he saw in rats would happen in people.  The fact that it did happen in rats helps support the hypothesis that the same will happen in people.  However, the media likes to sell papers and isn't constrained by ethics the way scientists are.

> He's a forward-thinking, grounded, true scientist with no preconceived notions about his results.

Then he should know above all else that until peer review and validation, the findings are no more than interesting.  Mistakes in the lab happen; I know, I have made a few myself.  "That looks like an awful lot for a gram of cyclonite.  Oh $^#!!!  Hey, who the #^$%! switched the scale from grams to oz!!!"  :wink:


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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InvisibleMezcal
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Re: MDMA may damage the brain's defenses [Re: Shroomism]
    #5792880 - 06/26/06 05:31 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Shroomism said:
Rats are not people. Therefore, it's invalid.




The research was on rats. Research on rats is not invalid because rats are not people. Drawing strict conclusions that the effects and mechanisms are the same between species isn't what the article suggested- in fact it directly addresses that there is no evidence that the same effects appears in humans.

Quote:

Whether any prior exposure, or only exposure during adolescence, can protect humans this way is not yet clear. “My hunch is that it might be specific to the adolescent period,” Mayer says.

But the mechanism remains a mystery. Among the possibilities is that the pre-exposed animals may be metabolising the drug more quickly, he says, or they may be ratcheting up antioxidant activity in their bodies, or they may be modifying their serotonin receptors.




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InvisibleMezcal
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Re: MDMA may damage the brain's defenses [Re: Seuss]
    #5792891 - 06/26/06 05:34 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> He's a forward-thinking, grounded, true scientist with no preconceived notions about his results.

Then he should know above all else that until peer review and validation, the findings are no more than interesting.  Mistakes in the lab happen; I know, I have made a few myself.  "That looks like an awful lot for a gram of cyclonite.  Oh $^#!!!  Hey, who the #^$%! switched the scale from grams to oz!!!"  :wink:




Peer review is an important process, but it doesn't mean we can't draw any conclusions from a single laboratory's findings.

Not a lot of labs are doing research on longitudinal/developmental effects of MDMA use, especially in the area of pre-exposure. Hopefully results like those that Meyer's lab has been publishing for the last 3-4 years will convince others to do similar work.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: MDMA may damage the brain's defenses [Re: Shroomism]
    #5793173 - 06/26/06 07:00 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Rats are not people. Therefore, it's invalid.

Not invalid.

It's well known that many (most?) drugs have the same effect on animals as they do people. It's one reason animals are frequently used in experiments: because they're similar to us.

This is a consequence of evolution. We all came from common parent species and unless some selective pressure causes a change, whatever characteristics the parent has, the the child has too.

For example, a rat with a fever given asprin exibits a drop in temperature. Same for humans. A rat given cyanide dies. Same for humans. This theme repeats in many substances.

While the results presented in the study do not mean that they can be replicated in humans, they are clearly not invalid and should be used to guide further research in humans.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: MDMA may damage the brain's defenses [Re: Shroomism]
    #5793496 - 06/26/06 08:54 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Shroomism said:
one thing... rats are not humans.

Ever read Pihkal? That's real research. Test it on humans extensively first, and then post your conclusions. Animal testing is so bogus. Scientists that say "it does this to rats/dogs/monkeys/whatever so it must be the exact same for humans", is not science.




I'm sorry man but that's flat wrong. Animal research does work, because humans are animals ourselves. 98% of our DNA is the same as a fly's DNA - all the processes for cell metabolism, structure, replication, and such are very similar if not exactly the same across wide groups of species. A rat's brain is very similar to a human's brain on the cellular level - it is size and complexity that separate us.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Invisiblebadchad
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Re: MDMA may damage the brain's defenses [Re: trendal]
    #5793707 - 06/26/06 10:01 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Animal research has direct relevance to humans. How do you think we came to know what we do about hallucinogens?

It was R.A. Glennon's work in 1984 that set the precedent for 5-HT2A involvement in the mechanisms of action of hallucinogens. This has since been extended to primates, and importantly, humans.

As it stands, this was published in abstract form at a science meeting. How can you make any conclusions on whether the study is "bogus" or not without knowing the methodology?


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: MDMA may damage the brain's defenses [Re: badchad]
    #5794947 - 06/27/06 07:35 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

> Animal research has direct relevance to humans.

One still has to be careful not to read too much into any animal based results. Aspirin, for example, is dangerously poisonous to some mammal species while (mostly) harmless to others.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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Offlinestefan
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Re: MDMA may damage the brain's defenses [Re: Seuss]
    #5795089 - 06/27/06 10:17 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

ofcoarse, it depends on what animal they use.


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: MDMA may damage the brain's defenses [Re: stefan]
    #5796040 - 06/27/06 04:47 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Similar does not mean the same.


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OfflineJon
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Re: MDMA may damage the brain's defenses [Re: Shroomism]
    #5796064 - 06/27/06 04:55 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

What about catnip? That makes cats freak out, but it does nothing to humans.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: MDMA may damage the brain's defenses [Re: trendal]
    #5796173 - 06/27/06 05:40 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

It's kind of funny how so many people jump on news like this as being "invalid" or "false"....

If I had of posted some news about research that showed MDMA doesn't cause any damage...I doubt I would get a single response saying "this is bunk". Instead (and I know this for a fact, because I have posted "good" news about drugs before) everyone would be posting how good the news was, how they didn't have to worry as much, blah blah blah.


A lot of people need to learn how to handle things that don't agree with them - and I'll tell you the way to handle that kind of news isn't to call it bunk and ignore it :wink:


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: MDMA may damage the brain's defenses [Re: trendal]
    #5798536 - 06/28/06 08:42 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

> It's kind of funny how so many people jump on news like this as being "invalid" or "false"....

You hit the nail on the head: "jump on NEWS like this". As you well know, journalism is not held to the same standards that science requires. The "news" is often misleading or outright incorrect when it comes to reporting on science. Beyond the media bias, the government has introduced a funding bias into illegal drug related research. Science, and peer review, will eventually find the truth, but the bias means that one must be very careful when accepting the results of any research involving illegal drugs, especially when the conclusions support the government's prohibition agenda. It is sad that the lack of ethics in politics has been allowed to erode the ethics of scientists.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: MDMA may damage the brain's defenses [Re: Seuss]
    #5798981 - 06/28/06 01:08 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

:rolleyes:

Please show me, in any of my posts on this "news", where I said anyone should trust the research implicitly - because I didn't (and wouldn't).

All I was trying to point out is that, if this "news" was good news...I expect many of the people in this thread who called it bunk would instead be praising the glory of scientific discovery.


Also, do you consider Scientific American to be "news"? The articles are written by the researchers themselves...


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: MDMA may damage the brain's defenses [Re: trendal]
    #5799232 - 06/28/06 02:38 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Scientific American is bunk. It's closer to Popular Science than any kind of journal.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: MDMA may damage the brain's defenses [Re: trendal]
    #5802096 - 06/29/06 05:37 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

> Also, do you consider Scientific American to be "news"?

Yes, I consider it to be a trade news magazine as compared to a scientific journal such as The American Journal of Physics.

From the Scientific America website:
Quote:

Scientific American, the oldest continuously published magazine in the U.S., has been bringing its readers unique insights about developments in science and technology for more than 150 years.




I'm not claiming that SA is worthless, but being published in SA certainly does not carry the same prestige that being published in JAMA carries.

> Please show me, in any of my posts on this "news", where I said

I was not arguing against what you posted, but rather adding to it.

> Scientific American is bunk. It's closer to Popular Science than any kind of journal.

I wouldn't go so far as to call it bunk, but I certainl agree that it is closer to Popular Science than it is to New England Journal of Medicine. Of course, if the research had been published in NEJM, I would have been a bit more trusting about the methods used. The difference: SA is out to make money, NEJM is out to distribute medical "science".


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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OfflineCatalysis
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Re: MDMA may damage the brain's defenses [Re: trendal]
    #5807264 - 06/30/06 06:46 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I was reading about this and it is an interesting finding, although I agree that the animal model used may not be the best. I would be more interested if they used primates. I will probably take it more seriously if it actually gets published.

You guys are also right about the bias in illegal drug research. Even if it gets published in a prestigious journal, it may still be incorrect. Does anyone remember the MDMA neurotoxicity paper published in Science? It was retracted because it was discovered that they were actually using massive doses of methamphetamine.

The same caution should be exercised when reading papers in any "hot" area of science such as stem cells, genetics, immunology, global warming, biomaterials and many more im sure.


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Offlinekotik
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Re: MDMA may damage the brain's defenses [Re: Catalysis]
    #5807298 - 06/30/06 07:05 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

the topic of this post says "MDMA" yet the article says "Ecstacy"

I would argue these are NOT the same things, as a pill with pure mdma, or nothing but mdma is nothing like what you would find on the street as ecstacy.


--------------------
No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.


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Offlinephi1618
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Re: MDMA may damage the brain's defenses [Re: Seuss]
    #5809194 - 07/01/06 11:01 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

I'm not claiming that SA is worthless, but being published in SA certainly does not carry the same prestige that being published in JAMA carries.




Just because something is presented in a prestigious journal like JAMA doesn't make it true. Peer reviewed journals report on research - peer review makes sure the research done makes sense and has some approximation of good design as reported - many errors and even outright frauds still slip through.

For example, [url = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Hendrik_Sch%C3%B6n#Withdrawn_journal_papers] Jan Hendrik Schon[/url] published many articles in journals such as Science, Nature, Physical Review which were later withdrawn when his research turned out to be pure fabrication.

Of course, there's the famous meth/MDMA screw up from Ricaurte's lab.

The recent stem cell incident.

NEJM found that an article about Vioxx that it published omitted important information.

That's just a few examples of outright fraud or gross negligence - minor errors and good research that is later contradicted is even more common.


Scientific American is a good quality popular science magazine - the vast majority of what's reported in its major articles is also reported in peer reviewed journals.


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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: MDMA may damage the brain's defenses [Re: phi1618]
    #5809245 - 07/01/06 11:51 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

This thread is pretty much dead so I'm going to leap off on a tangent:

Up until a few years ago, I would have considered Scientific American a "good quality popular science magazine". However, they changed their format to put them in exactly the same class as magazines like Popular Science, which will publish articles on about 6 topics cyclically and in a manner designed solely to inflame emotions and thereby increase ratings. Scientific American is to print media as the Discovery Channel is to television. It's no matter that the researchers themselves write the articles since they're obviously subject to a massive amount of editorial oversight. Pick up a recent copy--I have 2 right here since I used to be a subscriber--and you'll see what I mean.


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Re: MDMA may damage the brain's defenses [Re: Seuss]
    #5813394 - 07/02/06 09:49 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:Also, a rat is not a person, typically... drugs often effect a rat differently than a person.




Rats and humans have different biology, but there's a large number of similarities. Whether or not a study can be applied to humans depends on whether the effects (in rats) are based on biological mechanisms that humans have too.

In this case, the blood-brain barrier is pretty similar between rats and humans. Does this study definitively proove 100% that humans experience similar effects? No. Does it mean that humans likely have the same effects? If you're a betting man, the answer is yes.


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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: MDMA may damage the brain's defenses [Re: trendal]
    #5819432 - 07/04/06 12:39 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Like I wrote in the Mod forum, high on MDMA:


---------------------------------------------------------------------


Wow, it's "different" to be reading how the very MDMA I'm high on right now might be turning my BBB into a colander :crazy:

Do you have access to the details of said research?

It would be vastly important to know how big the doses were. Somehow I don't think they're giving rats 750 mcg apiece, as metabolic issues have to be overcome. Also important is how the doses are administered. Anything other than pipetting the dose into the stomach would not reflect practical usage in humans. Theres a huge difference between injecting and oral administration as you well know.

Also, MDMA is not the same drug in humans as it is in rats. If you apply the same timescale multiplications then a single dose of MDMA would be a burn of a full 130 hours vs our human 5 hours.

Does the actual amount of receptor binding correspond with that in humans? And how would we know? If you think a spinal tap sucks.. :wink:

We do not know if the hightened permeatability, if it occurs in humans at all, in fact DOES scale up to the longer timeframe. Humans have 28x the number of wake/sleep cycles, which is tied into regeneration of the serotonin system and tissues in general.

This research is important to get to the bottom of, so it should be taken to other animals. (preferably pigs for a number of reasons)
Like the teacher said: If you assume you make an ass out of u and me.

If actual hightened permeatability of the BBB does occur in humans, then you can test this by comparing the measurable responses to an array of psychopharmaca between MDMA users and controls.

Quote:

The implications are dire - even if MDMA itself isn't toxic (or only mildly so) it could be opening the door to a whole slew of far more toxic compounds in the days, weeks, and even years after using MDMA.




MDMA does have a good track record though, with many users having imbided periodically for twenty years.

But this is definitely something we should look into for the sake of our members' wellbeing and our own.

Somehow I think it won't be nearly as bad as seen in rats, but then again I'm on 1.75mg/kg as we speak, so I know my faculties are quite impaired.

Hey, time for some introspection before my brain leaks into my bloodstream. Let's look into this some more!


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OfflineAmistadCubensis
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Re: MDMA may damage the brain's defenses [Re: trendal]
    #27190725 - 02/07/21 01:24 AM (7 months, 13 days ago)

There has been long a lot of research to indicate that abusing any substance just isn't a great idea. I know that I've messed with my head by smoking tons of pot in the past. I'm happy that eventually low strength marijuana (typically known as CBD) became legal so that I could experiment with that. It doesn't really seem to help me that much, and yes smoking it did reproduce some of the effects I didn't like about marijuana.

Watch out for anything that you put in to your digestive system! We're all sensitive! Curiosity can kill you!

A low dosage of MDMA for "typical adults" is around 50mg, the therapists who studied the drug in a controlled setting usually keep it around 125mg. I've discovered through watching documentaries that dealers typically sell ecstasy pills with a strength of around 240mg, so maybe you should break it up and test it if you go that route.

The brain is very mysterious, and it does get worse if you:

-don't get enough exercise

-don't get enough sleep

-if you live a miserable life

-if you are aging

Any nuero-scientist will tell you that the brain is fairly mysterious. Will it stop being mysterious? Probably not. Nobody knows everything.

MDMA clearly has strong effects on the serotonergic system, as can anti-depressants. Nuero-transmitters are not just located in the brain. However, some of the studies that have indicated that MDMA does a number on cognitive abilities usually recruited people who regularly attend raves, so the results were scewed by some of their other troubling behaviors (namely the tendency to think that sleep is equivalent to death).

Edit: It seems like the conversations on here were discussing MCG instead of MG...to do a conversion, divide any microgram by a thousand and you will get the equivalent dosage concerning what I was saying about human adults.

Large rats weigh one pound...i hope this sheds some light on the discussion.


Edited by AmistadCubensis (02/07/21 01:51 AM)


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Offlinethirtygoats
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Re: MDMA may damage the brain's defenses [Re: trendal]
    #27194930 - 02/09/21 09:28 AM (7 months, 11 days ago)

Well, no wonder I never enjoyed Mdma/ecstasy any time I used it. It always made me feel very depressed and I always felt like there was just something not right about Mdma. Now I have scientific evidence to back up those feelings.


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