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InvisibletrendalM
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MDMA may damage the brain's defenses
    #5791821 - 06/26/06 10:19 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Just a heads-up on some current research for anyone who uses or is thinking about using MDMA!

Ecstasy may damage the brain’s physical defences

The drug ecstasy reduces the brain’s defences, reveals a new study of rats, leaving it vulnerable to invasion by viruses and other pathogens.

The researchers behind the study warn of "clinical considerations which may apply to the treatment of people who abuse MDMA". For example, anaesthetics could find it easier to penetrate the brain, "greatly increasing the risk of unwanted sedation". And they say infections could cause permanent damage to brain cells or alter the ability of the brain to function normally.

The brain is protected by a fence of tightly packed cells, called the blood-brain barrier. This prevents all but the smallest molecules from passing through. But the new experiments show that MDMA – the chemical name for ecstasy, or “E” – somehow forces open that barrier, allowing larger molecules access to the brain.

Bryan Yamamoto at Boston University, US, and colleagues gave rats four doses of MDMA over 8 hours. “We were trying to approximate a human dosaging pattern,” says Yamamoto. The scientists also injected a blue dye, made of molecules too large to get into the rats' brains under normal circumstances.

One day later, the researchers found the dye had made its way into parts of the brain, such as the caudate and the hippocampus. Ten weeks later, despite no further doses of MDMA being given, new injections of dye were still passing through the blood brain barrier.

Ten weeks in rats could be considered the equivalent of five to seven years in humans. “It does seem to be a very protracted opening,” says Yamamoto. But, as yet, he is unable to say for sure whether the breach is permanent.
Prior protection

Other new research on MDMA has investigated "binges" of ecstasy-taking in rats. Scientists found that rats exposed to many single doses of ecstasy as adolescents are protected from much of the harm caused by e-binges as adults.

Jerrold Meyer at the University of Massachusetts in Amherst, US, and colleagues gave pre-pubescent rats two doses of ecstasy over 4 hours, then repeated that every five days, until young adulthood - a total of 12 doses.

After a period to allow the rats to clear the drug from their bodies, they received up to four times the previous dose spread only over a few hours. The researchers monitored such things as body temperature, body weight and behaviour. A week later, their brains were studied for signs of neurotoxicity.

Typically after a big ecstasy binge, animals suffer hyperthermia, fatigue and lethargy and sustain damage to serotonin axons – the long fibres extending from serotonin-containing neurons. All these features were observed in control rats.

But the rats that had been pre-exposed to the drug were spared these symptoms, including damage to their serotonin system. “Exposure does have this powerful effect to protect animals,” says Meyer.
Therapeutic use

Whether any prior exposure, or only exposure during adolescence, can protect humans this way is not yet clear. “My hunch is that it might be specific to the adolescent period,” Mayer says.

But the mechanism remains a mystery. Among the possibilities is that the pre-exposed animals may be metabolising the drug more quickly, he says, or they may be ratcheting up antioxidant activity in their bodies, or they may be modifying their serotonin receptors.

Not all research on MDMA is into its negative effects. Stephanie Linley at Florida Atlantic University in Port St Lucie points out that the drug is now being investigated for clinical use in diseases as wide-ranging as schizophrenia, post-traumatic stress disorder and terminal cancer.

These papers were presented at the Society for Neuroscience annual meeting, in Washington DC, US.

http://www.newscientist.com/channel/heal...l-defences.html


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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InvisibleMezcal
Registered: 08/11/05
Posts: 1,980
Re: MDMA may damage the brain's defenses [Re: trendal]
    #5791899 - 06/26/06 11:35 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Interesting stuff...

I've talked with Dr. Meyer before, he's a truly interesting fellow.

And I can personally attest to the fact that anaesthetics work much more effectively on MDMA- I literally passed out Friday night after 200mg MDMA and a single whippit. Usually I can handle a lot more than just one hit of N2O.


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OfflineJalruza
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Re: MDMA may damage the brain's defenses [Re: Mezcal]
    #5792031 - 06/26/06 12:26 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Yamamoto is a jack ass and this reserch is bogus


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InvisibleMushie_Man
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Registered: 05/21/04
Posts: 889
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Re: MDMA may damage the brain's defenses [Re: Jalruza]
    #5792118 - 06/26/06 12:51 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Jalruza said:
Yamamoto is a jack ass and this reserch is bogus




Much of an MDMA user yourself?


--------------------
Ecstacy got me standing next to you
Getting sentimental as fuck spillin' guts to you
We just met
But I think I'm in love with you
But you're on it too
So you tell me you love me too
Wake up in the morning like "yo, what the fuck we do?"


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OfflineJalruza
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Re: MDMA may damage the brain's defenses [Re: Mushie_Man]
    #5792152 - 06/26/06 01:03 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I do enjoy occasional roll......


--------------------
Time keeps ticking and running away
And It's taking us fast to a brand new free dimension
Too cool to mention well that's the intention
But some of us too dame blind to see
Jesus is the King Volume I
Jesus is the King Volume II
Shroomery MSN club
I'm talking to aliens!
Volcano Vap and Brain Chakras
Hilary Duff!!
:gethigh:


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Offlinehabitat0789
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Re: MDMA may damage the brain's defenses [Re: Jalruza]
    #5792178 - 06/26/06 01:14 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

im pretty much done with E, this kinda eases the pain a little


--------------------

ilove my woods...


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: MDMA may damage the brain's defenses [Re: trendal]
    #5792228 - 06/26/06 01:34 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

A few things to remember...

Almost all illegal drug research is biased. I don't believe a word of it until I read the methods and procedures and see two or three peer labs duplicate the results. Too many "we sufficated a monkey with cannabis smoke and it died therefore cannabis is deadly" or "we fed methamphetamines to a bunch of rats and then published a paper talking about the results of MDMA on the brain" type of crap. Also, a rat is not a person, typically... drugs often effect a rat differently than a person.

If MDMA does help other drugs pass the BBB, this could be big news for cancer treatments and the like. Many forms of cancer (and other) drugs cannot work on the brain because they cannot make it past the BBB.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: MDMA may damage the brain's defenses [Re: trendal]
    #5792424 - 06/26/06 02:44 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

one thing... rats are not humans.

Ever read Pihkal? That's real research. Test it on humans extensively first, and then post your conclusions. Animal testing is so bogus. Scientists that say "it does this to rats/dogs/monkeys/whatever so it must be the exact same for humans", is not science.


--------------------


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InvisibleMezcal
Registered: 08/11/05
Posts: 1,980
Re: MDMA may damage the brain's defenses [Re: Seuss]
    #5792513 - 06/26/06 03:18 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
A few things to remember...

Almost all illegal drug research is biased.




Meyer's lab is legit. He's a forward-thinking, grounded, true scientist with no preconceived notions about his results. He develops unique methods and executes his research with all of his attention to its scientific validity. I can't say the same thing about all MDMA researchers, but I can testify on his behalf.


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Offlinebarfightlard
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Re: MDMA may damage the brain's defenses [Re: Mezcal]
    #5792590 - 06/26/06 03:46 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

May be legit, but it's still flawed.


--------------------

"What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I fuck, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?" - Bill Hicks


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: MDMA may damage the brain's defenses [Re: Mezcal]
    #5792619 - 06/26/06 03:59 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

snyder said:

Meyer's lab is legit. He's a forward-thinking, grounded, true scientist with no preconceived notions about his results. He develops unique methods and executes his research with all of his attention to its scientific validity. I can't say the same thing about all MDMA researchers, but I can testify on his behalf.




Rats are not people. Therefore, it's invalid.


--------------------


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: MDMA may damage the brain's defenses [Re: Shroomism]
    #5792673 - 06/26/06 04:17 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

> Rats are not people. Therefore, it's invalid.

I doubt Meyer made any claim that what he saw in rats would happen in people.  The fact that it did happen in rats helps support the hypothesis that the same will happen in people.  However, the media likes to sell papers and isn't constrained by ethics the way scientists are.

> He's a forward-thinking, grounded, true scientist with no preconceived notions about his results.

Then he should know above all else that until peer review and validation, the findings are no more than interesting.  Mistakes in the lab happen; I know, I have made a few myself.  "That looks like an awful lot for a gram of cyclonite.  Oh $^#!!!  Hey, who the #^$%! switched the scale from grams to oz!!!"  :wink:


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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InvisibleMezcal
Registered: 08/11/05
Posts: 1,980
Re: MDMA may damage the brain's defenses [Re: Shroomism]
    #5792880 - 06/26/06 05:31 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Shroomism said:
Rats are not people. Therefore, it's invalid.




The research was on rats. Research on rats is not invalid because rats are not people. Drawing strict conclusions that the effects and mechanisms are the same between species isn't what the article suggested- in fact it directly addresses that there is no evidence that the same effects appears in humans.

Quote:

Whether any prior exposure, or only exposure during adolescence, can protect humans this way is not yet clear. “My hunch is that it might be specific to the adolescent period,” Mayer says.

But the mechanism remains a mystery. Among the possibilities is that the pre-exposed animals may be metabolising the drug more quickly, he says, or they may be ratcheting up antioxidant activity in their bodies, or they may be modifying their serotonin receptors.




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InvisibleMezcal
Registered: 08/11/05
Posts: 1,980
Re: MDMA may damage the brain's defenses [Re: Seuss]
    #5792891 - 06/26/06 05:34 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> He's a forward-thinking, grounded, true scientist with no preconceived notions about his results.

Then he should know above all else that until peer review and validation, the findings are no more than interesting.  Mistakes in the lab happen; I know, I have made a few myself.  "That looks like an awful lot for a gram of cyclonite.  Oh $^#!!!  Hey, who the #^$%! switched the scale from grams to oz!!!"  :wink:




Peer review is an important process, but it doesn't mean we can't draw any conclusions from a single laboratory's findings.

Not a lot of labs are doing research on longitudinal/developmental effects of MDMA use, especially in the area of pre-exposure. Hopefully results like those that Meyer's lab has been publishing for the last 3-4 years will convince others to do similar work.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: MDMA may damage the brain's defenses [Re: Shroomism]
    #5793173 - 06/26/06 07:00 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Rats are not people. Therefore, it's invalid.

Not invalid.

It's well known that many (most?) drugs have the same effect on animals as they do people. It's one reason animals are frequently used in experiments: because they're similar to us.

This is a consequence of evolution. We all came from common parent species and unless some selective pressure causes a change, whatever characteristics the parent has, the the child has too.

For example, a rat with a fever given asprin exibits a drop in temperature. Same for humans. A rat given cyanide dies. Same for humans. This theme repeats in many substances.

While the results presented in the study do not mean that they can be replicated in humans, they are clearly not invalid and should be used to guide further research in humans.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: MDMA may damage the brain's defenses [Re: Shroomism]
    #5793496 - 06/26/06 08:54 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Shroomism said:
one thing... rats are not humans.

Ever read Pihkal? That's real research. Test it on humans extensively first, and then post your conclusions. Animal testing is so bogus. Scientists that say "it does this to rats/dogs/monkeys/whatever so it must be the exact same for humans", is not science.




I'm sorry man but that's flat wrong. Animal research does work, because humans are animals ourselves. 98% of our DNA is the same as a fly's DNA - all the processes for cell metabolism, structure, replication, and such are very similar if not exactly the same across wide groups of species. A rat's brain is very similar to a human's brain on the cellular level - it is size and complexity that separate us.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Invisiblebadchad
Mad Scientist

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Posts: 13,147
Re: MDMA may damage the brain's defenses [Re: trendal]
    #5793707 - 06/26/06 10:01 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Animal research has direct relevance to humans. How do you think we came to know what we do about hallucinogens?

It was R.A. Glennon's work in 1984 that set the precedent for 5-HT2A involvement in the mechanisms of action of hallucinogens. This has since been extended to primates, and importantly, humans.

As it stands, this was published in abstract form at a science meeting. How can you make any conclusions on whether the study is "bogus" or not without knowing the methodology?


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: MDMA may damage the brain's defenses [Re: badchad]
    #5794947 - 06/27/06 07:35 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

> Animal research has direct relevance to humans.

One still has to be careful not to read too much into any animal based results. Aspirin, for example, is dangerously poisonous to some mammal species while (mostly) harmless to others.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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Offlinestefan
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Re: MDMA may damage the brain's defenses [Re: Seuss]
    #5795089 - 06/27/06 10:17 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

ofcoarse, it depends on what animal they use.


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: MDMA may damage the brain's defenses [Re: stefan]
    #5796040 - 06/27/06 04:47 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Similar does not mean the same.


--------------------


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