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Offlinewilshire
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nonsense
    #5791160 - 06/26/06 02:25 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

carbonhoots says in another thread:

"The fascists are firmly in control."

"this same population is subjected to a non-democratic, fascist system. Especially in USA."

"If I were a fascist in power, like the American government is..."

"Hats off to American fascism. They finally got it right this time."

here is benito mussolini's "the doctrine of fascism":

http://www.worldfuturefund.org/wffmaster/Reading/Germany/mussolini.htm

you shouldn't use words you don't know the meaning of.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: nonsense [Re: wilshire]
    #5791313 - 06/26/06 03:21 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I wouldn't take what Benito Mussolini says too seriously. Hitler isn't generally too reliable in his writings either.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: nonsense [Re: wilshire]
    #5791377 - 06/26/06 03:43 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Fourteen Defining
Characteristics Of Fascism
By Dr. Lawrence Britt


1. Powerful and continuing expressions of nationalism. From the prominent displays of flags and bunting to the ubiquitous lapel pins, the fervor to show patriotic nationalism, both on the part of the regime itself and of citizens caught up in its frenzy, was always obvious. Catchy slogans, pride in the military, and demands for unity were common themes in expressing this nationalism. It was usually coupled with a suspicion of things foreign that often bordered on xenophobia.

2. Disdain for the importance of human rights. The regimes themselves viewed human rights as of little value and a hindrance to realizing the objectives of the ruling elite. Through clever use of propaganda, the population was brought to accept these human rights abuses by marginalizing, even demonizing, those being targeted. When abuse was egregious, the tactic was to use secrecy, denial, and disinformation.

3. Identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause. The most significant common thread among these regimes was the use of scapegoating as a means to divert the people’s attention from other problems, to shift blame forfailures, and to channel frustration in controlled directions. The methods of choice—relentless propaganda and disinformation—were usually effective. Often the regimes would incite “spontaneous” acts against the target scapegoats, usually communists, socialists, liberals, Jews, ethnic and racial minorities, traditional national enemies, members of other religions, secularists, homosexuals, and“terrorists.” Active opponents of these regimes were inevitably labeled as terrorists and dealt with accordingly.

4. The supremacy of the military/avid militarism. Ruling elites always identified closely with the military and the industrial infrastructure that supported it. A disproportionate share of national resources was allocated to the military, even when domestic needs were acute. The military was seen as an expression of nationalism, and was used whenever possible to assert national goals, intimidate other nations, and increase the power and prestige of the ruling elite.

5. Rampant sexism. Beyond the simple fact that the political elite and the national culture were male-dominated, these regimes inevitably viewed women as second-class citizens. They were adamantly anti-abortion and also homophobic. These attitudes were usually codified in Draconian laws that enjoyed strong support by the orthodox religion of the country, thus lending the regime cover for its abuses.

6. A controlled mass media. Under some of the regimes, the mass media were under strict direct control and could be relied upon never to stray from the party line. Other regimes exercised more subtle power to ensure media orthodoxy. Methods included the control of licensing and access to resources, economic pressure, appeals to patriotism, and implied threats. The leaders of the mass media were often politically compatible with the power elite. The result was usually success in keeping the general public unaware of the regimes’ excesses.

7. Obsession with national security. Inevitably, a national security apparatus was under direct control of the ruling elite. It was usually an instrument of oppression, operating in secret and beyond any constraints. Its actions were justified under the rubric of protecting “national security,” and questioning its activities was portrayed as unpatriotic or even treasonous.

8. Religion and ruling elite tied together. Unlike communist regimes, the fascist and protofascist regimes were never proclaimed as godless by their opponents. In fact, most of the regimes attached themselves to the predominant religion of the country and chose to portray themselves as militant defenders of that religion. The fact that the ruling elite’s behavior was incompatible with the precepts of the religion was generally swept under the rug. Propaganda kept up the illusion that the ruling elites were defenders of the faith and opponents of the “godless.” A perception was manufactured that opposing the power elite was tantamount to an attack on religion.

9. Power of corporations protected. Although the personal life of ordinary citizens was under strict control, the ability of large corporations to operate in relative freedom was not compromised. The ruling elite saw the corporate structure as a way to not only ensure military production (in developed states), but also as an additional means of social control. Members of the economic elite were often pampered by the political elite to ensure a continued mutuality of interests, especially in the repression of “have-not” citizens.

10. Power of labor suppressed or eliminated. Since organized labor was seen as the one power center that could challenge the political hegemony of the ruling elite and its corporate allies, it was inevitably crushed or made powerless. The poor formed an underclass, viewed with suspicion or outright contempt. Under some regimes, being poor was considered akin to a vice.

11. Disdain and suppression of intellectuals and the arts. Intellectuals and the inherent freedom of ideas and expression associated with them were anathema to these regimes. Intellectual and academic freedom were considered subversive to national security and the patriotic ideal. Universities were tightly controlled; politically unreliable faculty harassed or eliminated. Unorthodox ideas or expressions of dissent were strongly attacked, silenced, or crushed. To these regimes, art and literature should serve the national interest or they had no right to exist.

12. Obsession with crime and punishment. Most of these regimes maintained Draconian systems of criminal justice with huge prison populations. The police were often glorified and had almost unchecked power, leading to rampant abuse. “Normal” and political crime were often merged into trumped-up criminal charges and sometimes used against political opponents of the regime. Fear, and hatred, of criminals or “traitors” was often promoted among the population as an excuse for more police power.

13. Rampant cronyism and corruption. Those in business circles and close to the power elite often used their position to enrich themselves. This corruption worked both ways; the power elite would receive financial gifts and property from the economic elite, who in turn would gain the benefit of government favoritism. Members of the power elite were in a position to obtain vast wealth from other sources as well: for example, by stealing national resources. With the national security apparatus under control and the media muzzled, this corruption was largely unconstrained and not well understood by the general population.

14. Fraudulent elections. Elections in the form of plebiscites or public opinion polls were usually bogus. When actual elections with candidates were held, they would usually be perverted by the power elite to get the desired result. Common methods included maintaining control of the election machinery, intimidating an disenfranchising opposition voters, destroying or disallowing legal votes, and, as a last resort, turning to a judiciary beholden to the power elite.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article4113.htm


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: nonsense [Re: Alex213]
    #5791880 - 06/26/06 11:24 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I wouldn't take what Benito Mussolini says too seriously.

he was the man who started the fascist movement in europe (which is now dead worldwide and has been for about 60 years) and that is his manifesto. why should we not read it when formulating a definition of what "fascism" actually means (other than just a slur to sling around during political discussions)?


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: nonsense [Re: Alex213]
    #5791963 - 06/26/06 12:00 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

that list describes some typical characteristics of societies living under fascism, but it completely avoids defining fascism as a political ideology.

it is not a definition of fascism; it's a thily-veiled list of ways in which the author feels the united states is similar to fascist europe in the 1930's and '40's. there are a number of characteristics that a government or philosophy must have to be called "fascism" that are not on the list. there are also a number of characteristics that a government or philosophy does not need to have to be called "fascism" that are on the list.

fascism, like liberalism or communism, is above all else a political philosophy that has certain things to say about the state, the individual, and the relationship between them. you can read about fascism's take on this in mussolini's manifesto. you won't find it in dr. britt's list. fascism, the political philosophy, is not accepted by the people of the united states or their government.


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Edited by wilshire (06/26/06 01:34 PM)


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OfflinePanoramix
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Re: nonsense [Re: wilshire]
    #5794682 - 06/27/06 03:18 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

"he was the man who started the fascist movement in europe"
Um, ever heard of Franco?

(which is now dead worldwide and has been for about 60 years)
"Um, been to Spain recently, which has an openly fascist govm't right now?

"...and that is his manifesto. why should we not read it when formulating a definition of what "fascism" actually means (other than just a slur to sling around during political discussions)?"
Because it's self-serving propaganda. Plus it's generally agreed that Mussolini was a mental midget (no disrespect to little people intended)

Nice of you to recognize how the U.S. fits the description of a fascist society by the description given by Dr. Lawrence Britt, though.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: nonsense [Re: wilshire]
    #5795211 - 06/27/06 11:12 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

it is not a definition of fascism

It defines characteristics of fascist society tho.

it's a thily-veiled list of ways in which the author feels the united states is similar to fascist europe in the 1930's and '40's.

Not really. There's no such thing as "fascist europe". There were fundamental differences different forms of fascism and Nazism even back in the 30's and 40's. The italian version of fascism has little to do with Hitler's version, with Franco's version etc. But they all share certain characteristics.


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: nonsense [Re: Panoramix]
    #5795254 - 06/27/06 11:29 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Um, ever heard of Franco?

yes. what's your point? he came to power much later than mussolini and though he leaned on fascist factions for power, he wasn't an adherent to the philosophy of fascism. if i am mistaken about that and you know of writings by franco that define fascism better than the one by mussolini i posted, you can post them.

"Um, been to Spain recently, which has an openly fascist govm't right now?

:lol: bullshit. where'd you hear that?

Because it's self-serving propaganda. Plus it's generally agreed that Mussolini was a mental midget (no disrespect to little people intended)

and it what ways then, is his writing either incomplete or inaccurate in its description of fascism as a political philosophy?

Nice of you to recognize how the U.S. fits the description of a fascist society by the description given by Dr. Lawrence Britt, though.

of course. that is his point. i also noticed that nearly any dictatorship, fascist or not (including communist ones), tends to fit most of those criteria much better than the united states.

again, dr. britt's list says nothing about fascism as a political philosophy. in your understanding, what are the philosophical tenets of fascism?

fascism makes bold existentialist statements. an excerpt from mussolini's "doctrine of fascism":

"In the Fascist conception of history, man is man only by virtue of the spiritual process to which he contributes as a member of the family, the social group, the nation, and in function of history to which all nations bring their contribution. Hence the great value of tradition in records, in language, in customs, in the rules of social life (8). Outside history man is a nonentity. Fascism is therefore opposed to all individualistic abstractions based on eighteenth century materialism; and it is opposed to all Jacobinistic utopias and innovations. It does not believe in the possibility of "happiness" on earth as conceived by the economistic literature of the XVIIIth century, and it therefore rejects the theological notion that at some future time the human family will secure a final settlement of all its difficulties. This notion runs counter to experience which teaches that life is in continual flux and in process of evolution. In politics Fascism aims at realism; in practice it desires to deal only with those problems which are the spontaneous product of historic conditions and which find or suggest their own solutions (9). Only by entering in to the process of reality and taking possession of the forces at work within it, can man act on man and on nature (10).

Anti-individualistic, the Fascist conception of life stresses the importance of the State and accepts the individual only in so far as his interests coincide with those of the State, which stands for the conscience and the universal, will of man as a historic entity (11). It is opposed to classical liberalism which arose as a reaction to absolutism and exhausted its historical function when the State became the expression of the conscience and will of the people. Liberalism denied the State in the name of the individual; Fascism reasserts

The rights of the State as expressing the real essence of the individual (12). And if liberty is to he the attribute of living men and not of abstract dummies invented by individualistic liberalism, then Fascism stands for liberty, and for the only liberty worth having, the liberty of the State and of the individual within the State (13). The Fascist conception of the State is all embracing; outside of it no human or spiritual values can exist, much less have value. Thus understood, Fascism, is totalitarian, and the Fascist State - a synthesis and a unit inclusive of all values - interprets, develops, and potentates the whole life of a people (14)."

this should sound very familiar to you if you've read a bit of martin heidegger. he was an important existentialist philosopher, not a "mental midget", and quite a fascist. again, the views espoused in his works about the nature of the state and the individual are not shared by the government of the united states or its people. we are not fascists.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: nonsense [Re: wilshire]
    #5795297 - 06/27/06 11:48 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

dr. britt's list says nothing about fascism as a political philosophy. in your understanding, what are the philosophical tenets of fascism?


Could you honestly call Benito or Adolf "philosophers"? I don't think either of them would know a philosophical tenet if it kicked them in the gonads.


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: nonsense [Re: wilshire]
    #5795370 - 06/27/06 12:15 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

first of all..it appears that the intent of this thread was not to debate whether or not america is a fascist state..but rather to denigrate another member simply for trying to make that argument...

second of all..godwins' law precludes such a debate to begin with..which is unfortunate since it can dissuade necessary vigillance...IMAO..godwin is simply a variation on "it cant happen here"..which is very obviously false...

third of all..even if the repugnican neoconservatism cannot be construed as "fascism" in an historical or technical sense of the word..there is little doubt that its effects will not be equally pernicious...if one is plague..then the other is anthrax...


Edited by Annapurna1 (06/27/06 12:24 PM)


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: nonsense [Re: Alex213]
    #5795553 - 06/27/06 01:21 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Could you honestly call Benito or Adolf "philosophers"?

yes, though poor ones. i don't hold a very high regard for heidegger either, though there are those that do.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: nonsense [Re: wilshire]
    #5795577 - 06/27/06 01:26 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)



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Offlinewilshire
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Re: nonsense [Re: Silversoul]
    #5795651 - 06/27/06 01:50 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

:shocked:

good find. i'm surprised i'm missed that.

also reminds me... hegel was a big fascist too.


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: nonsense [Re: Annapurna1]
    #5795699 - 06/27/06 02:12 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

first of all..it appears that the intent of this thread was not to debate whether or not america is a fascist state..but rather to denigrate another member simply for trying to make that argument...

a bunch of unsupported statements does not equal an argument. he claimed that america was now under fascism. i've attacked that claim, not the one who made it. fascism is not simply a combination of nationalism, militarism, and authoritarian control (the existence of these in america we can discuss as well). it is a existentialist political philosophy about the role and relationship of individual, nation, and state.


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: nonsense [Re: wilshire]
    #5795819 - 06/27/06 03:02 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

fascism is not simply a combination of nationalism, militarism, and authoritarian control. it is a existentialist political philosophy about the role and relationship of individual, nation, and state.




true..but if we dont have fascism in this country..then whatever we do have prolly passes the walk-like-a-duck-talk-like-a-duck test...


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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: nonsense [Re: Annapurna1]
    #5795838 - 06/27/06 03:10 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

America today is a plutocratic republic which is becoming slowly more authoritarian, but is by no means anywhere approaching fascism. I also doubt that the authoritarian trend will continue indefinitely, as an examination of American history will show an ebb and flow of authoritarian tendencies throughout our history(Alien and Sedition Acts, anyone?). Calling America fascist is simplistic hyperbole which does nothing but discredit the person making the accusation.


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: nonsense [Re: Silversoul]
    #5795845 - 06/27/06 03:15 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

:thumbup:


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: nonsense [Re: Silversoul]
    #5796255 - 06/27/06 06:11 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

more like rapidly becoming more authouritarian.. up to the point where the "more" qualifier could prolly be deleted...and calling it a "plutocratic authouritarian republic" as opposed to "fascism" is like calling a dog a canine...unfortunately..as you pointed out..nobody takes the word "fascism" seriously anymore...however..there is little point in debating whether or not our authouritarian plutocratic regime technically qualifies as fascism.. the effects are still the same and no less unacceptable...


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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: nonsense [Re: wilshire]
    #5796300 - 06/27/06 06:27 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

it is a existentialist political philosophy about the role and relationship of individual, nation, and state.

Isn't fascism just a load of crap Benito and Adolf thought up off the top of their head to help them on their way to power? I don't think Hitler gave a shit about the philosophy of fascism. He certainly wasn't following any rulebook Mussolini wrote.


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: nonsense [Re: Alex213]
    #5797456 - 06/27/06 11:59 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)


Isn't fascism just a load of crap Benito and Adolf thought up off the top of their head to help them on their way to power?


no, it isn't. read the link silversoul posted.


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