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OfflineDoctorJ
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money vs ability
    #5790105 - 06/25/06 06:10 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I was thinking today about money and how most people around me expect me to make a bunch of it.

Let me tell you this: I'd rather have ability than money.

Eventually, I would like to be so advanced that I don't need money. I could have a large piece of land which generated its own livestock, flora, and energy. I could produce everything I need by myself, and require nothing from anyone. At that point, I wouldn't require money because I wouldn't require commerce.

Basically, I think that ability is much more valuable than money. With money, you can pay people to do things for you, but with ability, you can do everything for yourself.


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OfflineMaverick
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Re: money vs ability [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5790109 - 06/25/06 06:12 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Give me your money and I'll give you some ability :wink:

I know what you mean though.


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OfflineFospher
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Re: money vs ability [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5790143 - 06/25/06 06:26 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
With money, you can pay people to do things for you, but with ability, you can do everything for yourself.




You, being on this forum, use a computer. How did you go about getting such a machine, and what do you think is the best way of getting one? Researching microprocessors for half a decade, spending thousands on laboratories just to produce something you can chat philosophy on? Or you can spend $500-3000, money that you earned, in exchange for another's labour in researching all that himself. You can even meet him halfway, and build the machine yourself with the parts he provided.

Money is the exchange of virtues, the exchange of man's ability for another's, the judgement of a product's value. If you choose to reject that trade, you are limited to the trade only you created. If you choose to reject other's ability, you are only limiting yourself to the fundamentals of survival.

And before I go on glamourizing this product of trade - Ayn Rand puts it much better than I as Skorpivo already made a post of.

[clicky]


--------------------
010001100100001001000101!


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: money vs ability [Re: Fospher]
    #5790179 - 06/25/06 06:37 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

sure, but once I have all the information I need from others, I can close the gates and do everything myself.

First, I would close off the material commerce. Then after awhile, I would close off the commerce of ideas.

All ideas are variations of the origional Idea. Once we have studied the variations, we must go back to the original, and make our own variations without outside influence.

Absorb enough of the abilities of others, and soon you will be diverse enough not to need others.

Only then can you become God of your own freestanding Universe.

"We ourselves have achieved it!"


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Invisibledemiu5
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Re: money vs ability [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5790204 - 06/25/06 06:53 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

property taxes...that's the only problem...we really are very similar.


--------------------
channel your inner Larry David


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: money vs ability [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5790225 - 06/25/06 07:05 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I agree that a vast fortune would not be preferable to highly developed capabilities. As to getting "beyond" money, though, you seem to be forgetting:

**medical and dental care

**property taxes

**temporary or permanent disability

**old age (and declining ability to produce everything you need)

**extreme weather/natural disaster (and the need to replace the flora and fauna and repair structural damage)

**the amazing amount of time it consumes to produce simple manufactured items (toothbrush, soap, matches, paper, etc...) which you cannot afford to purchase

**the cost of raw ingredients which you either do not or can not produce on your farm

It is a great idea to become more materially self-sufficient, but unrealistic to aim for a completely "freestanding Universe."


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Offlinecapliberty
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Re: money vs ability [Re: demiu5]
    #5790228 - 06/25/06 07:10 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

well I don't have any money, not a dam dollar, it sucks in some ways, I hate people calling me up to tell me I owe them, its like I owe them for living, who are these people anyway, I mean isn't it obvious I don't have any, so why bother me, to me it kind of breed superficiality, ever experience is hedged off money, including the most intimate, I see a kind virtue in broke people, people with money don't even give you the time of day, because their so important, they'll come along with this superficial act or some boss mentality,


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: money vs ability [Re: Veritas]
    #5790355 - 06/25/06 07:58 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)


**medical and dental care


will be able to do myself with enough study


**property taxes


will be eliminated soon

**temporary or permanent disability

can be overcome

**old age (and declining ability to produce everything you need)

will be stopped

**extreme weather/natural disaster (and the need to replace the flora and fauna and repair structural damage)

completely under my control

**the amazing amount of time it consumes to produce simple manufactured items (toothbrush, soap, matches, paper, etc...) which you cannot afford to purchase

ever seen the matter generators on Star Trek? Coming soon to a Reality near you!

**the cost of raw ingredients which you either do not or can not produce on your farm

can be created by me

It is a great idea to become more materially self-sufficient, but unrealistic to aim for a completely "freestanding Universe."

unrealistic? I disagree. I think a freestanding universe is exactly what reality is. And I want my own.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: money vs ability [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5790642 - 06/25/06 09:29 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

OK, my mistake, I thought this was a practical discussion of material self-sufficiency.  Please continue the sci-fi fantasy where you left off.  :rolleyes:


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: money vs ability [Re: Veritas]
    #5791256 - 06/26/06 01:00 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

"You might say I'm a dreamer.  But I'm not the only one."

-your hero John lennon


:tongue:


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OfflineNgalyod
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Re: money vs ability [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5791655 - 06/26/06 04:59 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I agree with what you're saying Doctor J. Totally. And it's something I'm striving towards as well.

But having said that, I don't think you need to be so extreme. There are certain things (as mentioned in some posts above) that, realistically, you need.

And there's nothing wrong with that. But hey, the more you can do for yourself, the more power to you.

It's a dream worth striving for.


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: money vs ability [Re: Ngalyod]
    #5791883 - 06/26/06 09:24 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

sure, realistically I need some things from others.

but reality changes. especially with the advent of new technology.

only a closed-minded person says: "Some things never change."

everything changes.

my Father once told me something:

"Sharing was invented by those who have nothing."


Edited by DoctorJ (06/26/06 09:34 AM)


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: money vs ability [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5792381 - 06/26/06 12:30 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Let's not forget that you will need money to purchase this property you want.


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: money vs ability [Re: Redstorm]
    #5792416 - 06/26/06 12:42 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

lets not forget you've entirely missed the point YET AGAIN.

yes, I need money now. But in the future I will be more advanced than to need money, or any of you people, for that matter.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: money vs ability [Re: Redstorm]
    #5792430 - 06/26/06 12:46 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Don't confuse him with the facts.


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: money vs ability [Re: Veritas]
    #5792448 - 06/26/06 12:52 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

facts change

it was once a fact that man could not fly.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: money vs ability [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5792462 - 06/26/06 12:57 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Man still can't fly.  He has developed tools which can fly.

He also can't fly for free, unless you count Frequent Flyer miles.  :grin:


Edited by Veritas (06/26/06 01:07 PM)


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: money vs ability [Re: Veritas]
    #5792496 - 06/26/06 01:09 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

there is always progress. 

IMO, personal progress ends with self-sufficiency.  Complete and total self-sufficiency. 

but I can understand why a woman wouldn't understand that :smirk:


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: money vs ability [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5792510 - 06/26/06 01:16 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

true freedom comes from self-sufficiency.

people often demand freedom, as if it is something that can be granted or demanded.

Freedom cannot be bought or stolen. It cannot be bargained for.

Freedom can only be earned and achieved.

All of us on earth are God's indentured servants. He wants us out of debt so we can move out of his house and do our own thing! So quit living at home, clear the nest for more children!


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: money vs ability [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5792519 - 06/26/06 01:20 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Yes, that extra X chromosome really aids in the grasp of reality.  :smirk:


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: money vs ability [Re: Veritas]
    #5792526 - 06/26/06 01:23 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

yeah, a reality with no diversity, where one perspective dominates all. 

have fun with that :thumbup:


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: money vs ability [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5792528 - 06/26/06 01:24 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

"Sharing was invented by those who have nothing."

You beleive that and call yourself tight with God/Source/Whatever?

That would be like saying all of these souls just appeared from out of no where, had nothing and had to beg god to share all it has with them. How did they even recieve the gift of their lives in the first place if they had to invent it to be given to them first. The one that had it all to give first, had to be the one to first invent the concept of sharing of itself.

Ya know, there are souls out there who share and give of themselves and what they have, even to those who have more then them, out of the pure joy of giving and sharing in itself.

Its sad if you actually feel and beleive you have only recieved from others in life who took pity on you for having nothing yourself and or with strings attached and that you don't actually beleive in the God you preach about. Maybe its a lessor god you are reffering to when you use the word.

How else could you have bought into thinking that quote he shared with you made any sense what so ever.

You think the starving children of Somalia somehow went to wealthy americans and told them they had invented this idea of sharing and told them to share their wealth them, or did the wealthy americans become aware of the starving children and decide to share from out of the compassion in their hearts, all on their own?

You have it backwards dude.

If not, can you clarify as I don't understand the reasoning of or why you shared that quote with us.

:peace: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


Edited by gettinjiggywithit (06/26/06 01:32 PM)


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: money vs ability [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5792538 - 06/26/06 01:29 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

:lol:  That is not what I have ever or will ever propose or believe in.  You have been proclaiming all over these boards that YOUR perspective is the one and only correct POV, and that YOUR God is the one and only correct way to be spiritual.  Sounds very diverse.


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: money vs ability [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5792555 - 06/26/06 01:35 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

its just something my Father said.

of course I realize it works both ways. 

but there are many instances in which my Father's point is correct. 

Ever go to a Dead show and everyone there 'shares' your weed to the point where you leave with nothing but an empty bag?  'Common, man, I thought we were friends, you're supposed to be cool.  Don't you want to share?'  :rolleyes:  Greedy, manipulative drivel. 

This seems to be a recurrent theme in my life. 

I go to the grocery store to get everyone food, the minute I get home a stampede of hungry children takes everything I've purchased and runs off, and all I'm left with is an empty fuckin bag. 

That stops now.  The accounts are closed, the credit cards are cut up.  From now on, its 'Fuck you, pay me'. 

Even from a thousand miles away, I can hear my Father saying: "Nice one, hotshot!  Tell them to get off our backs and do their own dishes!" 

Its not like the people that are always asking for a handout are incapable of not needing one.  It gets to the point where the people who give give so much that they need a handout themselves!  But at that point, the people still haven't learned to fish, and its on us to produce more for both ourselves and everyone. 

when are the souls going to break free and foster their own creations?  God made us in his image so that we could evolve to become his equals.  You think God is going to lose by setting us free?  How can God lose?  If you decide to move out, he'll just replace you with a newer model.


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: money vs ability [Re: Veritas]
    #5792559 - 06/26/06 01:36 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
:lol:  That is not what I have ever or will ever propose or believe in.  You have been proclaiming all over these boards that YOUR perspective is the one and only correct POV, and that YOUR God is the one and only correct way to be spiritual.  Sounds very diverse.




bullshit.  total bullshit.  misinterpretation followed by misquotation followed by bogus judgement.  nice job, Veritas.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: money vs ability [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5792570 - 06/26/06 01:39 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.




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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: money vs ability [Re: Veritas]
    #5792584 - 06/26/06 01:45 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

there is just punishment and there is unjust punishment. Just punishment is deserved, unjust punishment is undeserved.

In this life and many others, I have given. I have given my wealth, my ideas, and even my very soul. I am not alone in this. Many others have given as well. We give not in the hopes of being repaid, but in the hopes that those who take will use what we have given to become self-suffiecient, provide for themselves, and ultimately become givers like us.

We don't like to give to crackheads who waste what we have given them and come back for more every 5 minutes.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: money vs ability [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5792620 - 06/26/06 01:59 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

So was it your biological father who contributed that gem about sharing, or are you claiming a Biblical reference?

You still live at home, correct? Do you have a job? Do you contribute financially to your parents' household in any way beyond those groceries that were "stolen" by hungry children? What if your parents decided not to share their hard-earned resources with you? As a legal adult, you are responsible for yourself.

Neither God nor Jesus has advised us to save our help for those who are self-sufficient, but for the "least of my brethren." If that does not include crackheads, who else?

What about empathy, compassion and charity? Are they reserved for those whom you have deemed worthy?


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: money vs ability [Re: Veritas]
    #5792643 - 06/26/06 02:07 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

my biological father is a biblical reference! Big G is walkin around on this planet right now, honey. He hates this place alnmost as much as I do. We're both lookin forward to going home.

And no, I do not recieve support from my parents and I live on my own. My parents moved away the day I graduated high school. I had to sleep on my friend's couch for a month until I managed to raise the cash to get my first apartment in the ghetto, no cosigner. The funny thing is, my Dad is loaded. He could have given me millions. But instead he chose to give me something far greater: ability to make my own.

And yes, you are supposed to give to those less fortunate. But sometimes giving doesn't help. I guess you'll have to wait until you are a man to expirience 'tough love', and learn its valuable lessons, as I realize that women in this country are mostly treated like princesses who get whatever they want, no questions asked, no hardships undertaken.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: money vs ability [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5792681 - 06/26/06 02:20 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

I guess you'll have to wait until you are a man to expirience 'tough love', and learn its valuable lessons, as I realize that women in this country are mostly treated like princesses who get whatever they want, no questions asked, no hardships undertaken.





The facts do not support your assertions. Perhaps you will understand when you're a woman.


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: money vs ability [Re: Veritas]
    #5792699 - 06/26/06 02:30 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

looking forward to that, actually  :smile:

not that I don't enjoy being a man, but it's always nice to see a different perspective. 


As to the point of this thread, I believe that God wants the same thing all Fathers want:  He wants his kids to move out and earn their own way so that He can retire!


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: money vs ability [Re: Veritas]
    #5792711 - 06/26/06 02:33 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
I agree that a vast fortune would not be preferable to highly developed capabilities. As to getting "beyond" money, though, you seem to be forgetting:

**medical and dental care

**property taxes

**temporary or permanent disability

**old age (and declining ability to produce everything you need)

**extreme weather/natural disaster (and the need to replace the flora and fauna and repair structural damage)

**the amazing amount of time it consumes to produce simple manufactured items (toothbrush, soap, matches, paper, etc...) which you cannot afford to purchase

**the cost of raw ingredients which you either do not or can not produce on your farm




Technocracy plus Posthumanism would solve all of these problems, with exception of the weather.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: money vs ability [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5792714 - 06/26/06 02:35 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

You may find that the reality is very different from the assumptions you make now. Especially if you experience life as a single mother, an abused wife, or one of the millions of women who are discriminated against based solely upon their sex.

Neither sex has an easy life on this planet.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: money vs ability [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5792721 - 06/26/06 02:36 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

And would you be able to benefit from technology if you did not have the money to pay for it? Would you be entirely self-sufficient and have no need of others?


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: money vs ability [Re: Veritas]
    #5792728 - 06/26/06 02:38 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

In a Technocracy?
Yes!


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: money vs ability [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5792733 - 06/26/06 02:41 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

nice :thumbup:


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: money vs ability [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5792748 - 06/26/06 02:45 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

So who would be running the country? Where would the support for this techology-based Socialist society originate? Of course it is possible for a society to produce surplus, but not without cost. There would be no taxation, no work requirement, and everything would be provided for us?

If you are reliant upon the production of the government, then you are NOT self-sufficient.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: money vs ability [Re: Veritas]
    #5792767 - 06/26/06 02:51 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

So who would be running the country?

Technicians.

Where would the support for this techology-based Socialist society originate?

Automation.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: money vs ability [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5792781 - 06/26/06 02:55 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

An' Technocrats ain't no friggin reds, nether!


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: money vs ability [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5792791 - 06/26/06 02:58 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Technocracy is a fascinating theory, and might even work in application, but it assumes a complete societal break with competition. Is this likely to happen, in your opinion?


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: money vs ability [Re: Veritas]
    #5792813 - 06/26/06 03:04 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

No.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: money vs ability [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5792828 - 06/26/06 03:11 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Yeah, me neither. I love the idea of a communal society, where everyone benefits from surplus, and little or nothing is wasted. This seems possible on a small scale, such as co-housing communities, but perhaps is not workable on a national basis.


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OfflineFospher
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Re: money vs ability [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5792848 - 06/26/06 03:20 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
First, I would close off the material commerce.  Then after awhile, I would close off the commerce of ideas. 




The creation of something new is result of collaboration of minds and ideas. You can't talk of a futuristic utopia, yet reject the means to get there.

Quote:

All ideas are variations of the origional Idea.  Once we have studied the variations, we must go back to the original, and make our own variations without outside influence. 




There's no need to reinvent the wheel. Or the steam engine, the jet plane, the microprocessor that's running your computer for that matter. Let me make sure I got your plan down - get a flat piece of land and reinvent everything from the past 6000+ years, by yourself? You need a reality check, J.  :crazy:


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OfflineFospher
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Re: money vs ability [Re: Veritas]
    #5792905 - 06/26/06 03:39 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Yeah, me neither. I love the idea of a communal society, where everyone benefits from surplus, and little or nothing is wasted. This seems possible on a small scale, such as co-housing communities, but perhaps is not workable on a national basis.




I hate the cliche "it works in theory".

Let's start this society: We will all be rich, and never need anything, and live in an island off the bahamas. It works in theory, any of you care to try this out?

And yes, communism would work on a small-scale basis. Say a company of five people, where everyone gets the same paycheck on the end of the week. One person stops working, and the company experiences a major drawback. Now, picture a company of a thousand people. One person stops working.

"Hey, I don't have to do anything, and I still get paid!"

And then the company goes down the drain.

Also, communism highly depends on the community that it's exposed to. For example, Sweden is a highly socialistic country, almost communist, yet it's one of the best places to live. A janitor almost gets the same paycheck as a college professor, yet the high school test scores are one of the highest in the world. So, many (Americans) would ask, why would you work your ass off if in the end run, you'll still make the same dough as the guy who didn't work as hard as you did? Well that's because they work on a different premise. They don't work for a selfish means as an American does (nothing wrong with that btw) - to make as much money as possible - but for the welfare of the people and country. To each country each own political system, to each his own.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: money vs ability [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5792918 - 06/26/06 03:45 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I don't see what's so great about complete self-sufficiency. I prefer the interconnectedness and interdependence of society. Sure, you could grow your own food, build your own house, or even make your own tools, but society has advanced greatly because of specialization. I'd rather pay others to save me the time and work in order to devote myself to higher pursuits.


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OfflineFospher
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Re: money vs ability [Re: capliberty]
    #5792921 - 06/26/06 03:46 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

capliberty said:
well I don't have any money, not a dam dollar, it sucks in some ways, I hate people calling me up to tell me I owe them, its like I owe them for living, who are these people anyway, I mean isn't it obvious I don't have any, so why bother me, to me it kind of breed superficiality, ever experience is hedged off money, including the most intimate, I see a kind virtue in broke people, people with money don't even give you the time of day, because their so important, they'll come along with this superficial act or some boss mentality,






And that whole post is ridiculous, btw. Do you not understand the premise behind borrowing money? You have to give it back, ya know.  :laugh:


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: money vs ability [Re: Silversoul]
    #5792995 - 06/26/06 04:09 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

"Overspecialize and you breed in weakness."

have you ever heard of the fox vs the hedgehog?

the fox is an expert at one thing, where the hedgehog is an amatuer at all things.

over time, the hedgehog always overcomes the fox.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: money vs ability [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5793016 - 06/26/06 04:14 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Ahh, yes, from the great Anime philosopher, Major Motoko Kusanagi.

:lol:

As to the fox and the hedgehog, you have it reversed:
 
Quote:

The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing.

Archilochus (7th-century b.c.e.)




You were correct in your assertion that the hedgehog is successful in overcoming the fox, however.  Many business strategists rely upon this model to describe the folly of trying to know and do everything yourself (fox), as opposed to specializing in one area and hiring other hedgehog specialists for the rest.


Edited by Veritas (06/26/06 04:42 PM)


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Offlinecapliberty
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Re: money vs ability [Re: Fospher]
    #5793253 - 06/26/06 05:27 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Fospher said:
Quote:

capliberty said:
well I don't have any money, not a dam dollar, it sucks in some ways, I hate people calling me up to tell me I owe them, its like I owe them for living, who are these people anyway, I mean isn't it obvious I don't have any, so why bother me, to me it kind of breed superficiality, ever experience is hedged off money, including the most intimate, I see a kind virtue in broke people, people with money don't even give you the time of day, because their so important, they'll come along with this superficial act or some boss mentality,






And that whole post is ridiculous, btw. Do you not understand the premise behind borrowing money? You have to give it back, ya know.  :laugh:




Did I say I was in debt, and even if I do owe them, can't they see I have nothing to pay them,or how about the system manufacturing a case against you about something that you never done, then I have to pay them for a crime that I never committed, it seems like I'm not the only one that wants something for nothing, or how about a faulty system which its purpose is to deny, deny, deny, add a little bit of compassion to the equation and you have a formula for a totally bogus job at the expense of everyone else.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: money vs ability [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5793702 - 06/26/06 08:00 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

He never said anything about overspecializing. One can specialize at some things and still be adequate in others.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: money vs ability [Re: Veritas]
    #5794159 - 06/26/06 10:03 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Aside from the fact they both reject the free market, I'd say Technocracy could be considered the polar opposite of communism or socialism. It seems more like one gigantic conglomerated corporate monopoly. They don't call themselves "Technocracy Inc" for nothin.

But.... I only think Technocracy could work if it incorporated a free market in some form.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: money vs ability [Re: Fospher]
    #5795496 - 06/27/06 10:57 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Fospher said:
And yes, communism would work on a small-scale basis. Say a company of five people, where everyone gets the same paycheck on the end of the week. One person stops working, and the company experiences a major drawback. Now, picture a company of a thousand people. One person stops working.

"Hey, I don't have to do anything, and I still get paid!"

And then the company goes down the drain.



Sorry, but that's not communism. Communism is not about people getting paid for nothing. It's about the workers getting paid the full product of their labor(in accordance with the labor theory of value).


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OfflineFospher
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Re: money vs ability [Re: capliberty]
    #5796160 - 06/27/06 03:36 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

I hate people calling me up to tell me I owe them




Quote:

Did I say I was in debt




Having money that you owe to others puts you in position of debt, whether you borrowed all that money or not. You can owe money to the government for a criminal conviction without actually having loaned it. Does your inability to compensate for the money that you owe exempt your debt? It does not, unless your inability was a disability, and you were an invalid.


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OfflinePanoramix
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Re: money vs ability [Re: Fospher]
    #5798142 - 06/28/06 01:18 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

"my biological father is a biblical reference! Big G is walkin around on this planet right now, honey. He hates this place alnmost as much as I do. We're both lookin forward to going home." - Doc J

You've inspired me to write a lil haiku, goes like this;

You are crazy as
All those bedbugs 'twixt my sheets.
Get a CAT scan, man.

In non-haiku form it goes a little something like this;

Oh Delusion, Sweet Delusion!
Wrapped like cotton 'round my head
Send me softly off to my bed
Shield me from this reality
With assertions all ballad-y
Of soft lyres and singing dame
To know that life is all a game
That I have already won
For I am that most famous Son
Exaggerate my self-worth
Make me feel like the best on Earth
And I'll let you nestle in my head
Safe from thought which makes you dead.

In my most humble of opinions there ought to be an entire forum dedicated exclusively to haikus.


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: money vs ability [Re: Panoramix]
    #5798148 - 06/28/06 01:21 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

my head is closed for business.

the others who have sought shelter there should try using their own heads for a change.


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OfflineFospher
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Re: money vs ability [Re: Silversoul]
    #5799938 - 06/28/06 04:12 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

Fospher said:
And yes, communism would work on a small-scale basis. Say a company of five people, where everyone gets the same paycheck on the end of the week. One person stops working, and the company experiences a major drawback. Now, picture a company of a thousand people. One person stops working.

"Hey, I don't have to do anything, and I still get paid!"

And then the company goes down the drain.



Sorry, but that's not communism. Communism is not about people getting paid for nothing. It's about the workers getting paid the full product of their labor(in accordance with the labor theory of value).




Who determines "the full product of their value"? In a communist government, everyone gets an equal paycheck, because they work for their country's welfare, and not for their own. Give up themselves for the greater good, so to speak.

Of course Communism isn't about people getting paid for nothing, but in essense that's exactly what happens. People find that they can easily take advantage of the system if they dont share the same virtues as the government, and once enough people realize this - the system collapses.

Communism is only applicable in a homogenous nation, like Sweden, where everyone is virtually from the same origin.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: money vs ability [Re: Fospher]
    #5799974 - 06/28/06 04:22 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Fospher said:
Who determines "the full product of their value"?



It's really quite simple: Since under communism, the means of production are owned by the workers, there is no capitalist owner to keep all the profit. Therefore, the profits are split equally among the workers.

Quote:

In a communist government, everyone gets an equal paycheck, because they work for their country's welfare, and not for their own. Give up themselves for the greater good, so to speak.



Not true. They get an equal share of the profit their labor produces, but that doesn't mean everyone gets paid the same amount.

Quote:

Of course Communism isn't about people getting paid for nothing, but in essense that's exactly what happens. People find that they can easily take advantage of the system if they dont share the same virtues as the government, and once enough people realize this - the system collapses.



I do think there are some systemic problems with Marxist socialism(not necessarily Communism itself, which is the end-state predicted by Marx). But the main problem is not "human nature" or corruption, as so many ignorant Westerners spew mindlessly about. The problem is the logistical nightmare involved in having a command economy. The allocation of resources is much more difficult and inefficient than in a market economy.

Quote:

Communism is only applicable in a homogenous nation, like Sweden, where everyone is virtually from the same origin.



Sweden does not, nor has it ever had, anything resembling Communism. Sweden is a social democracy, or welfare state. It has a controlled market with high taxes and high amounts of social services. This has nothing to do with Communism. You are seriously misinformed about Communism. I suggest studying Marx sometime, rather than simply spew Cold War propaganda.


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OfflineFospher
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Re: money vs ability [Re: Silversoul]
    #5800051 - 06/28/06 04:47 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
It's really quite simple:  Since under communism, the means of production are owned by the workers, there is no capitalist owner to keep all the profit.  Therefore, the profits are split equally among the workers.




I.e. everyone getting the same paycheck. The type of the job does not determine your profit, the amount may.

Quote:


I do think there are some systemic problems with Marxist socialism(not necessarily Communism itself, which is the end-state predicted by Marx).  But the main problem is not "human nature" or corruption, as so many ignorant Westerners spew mindlessly about.  The problem is the logistical nightmare involved in having a command economy.  The allocation of resources is much more difficult and inefficient than in a market economy.




Allocation of resources and the lack of will to work both contribute to the system's decay.

Quote:

Sweden does not, nor has it ever had, anything resembling Communism.  Sweden is a social democracy, or welfare state.  It has a controlled market with high taxes and high amounts of social services.  This has nothing to do with Communism.  You are seriously misinformed about Communism.  I suggest studying Marx sometime, rather than simply spew Cold War propaganda.




Sweden is extremely Socialistic, it's almost Communist. A janitor will get the same payrate as a college professor, the free market is 95% in control of the state.

And for the record, you don't know me, so stop talking like you think you do.

:smirk:

I am not a Westerner - a Eurasianer maybe - but definetly not born in the States. I was born in USSR during the Perestroika, and actually lived through the system until it collapsed in '91. I've never read Das Kapital or the Manifesto, nor do I have the desire to, I've seen the failure of the system first hand.


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