Home | Community | Message Board

MushroomCube.com
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   PhytoExtractum Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   Original Sensible Seeds Bulk Cannabis Seeds   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

Jump to first unread post Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3  [ show all ]
InvisibleMushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: money vs ability [Re: Veritas]
    #5792813 - 06/26/06 03:04 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

No.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleVeritas
 User Gallery
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
Re: money vs ability [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5792828 - 06/26/06 03:11 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Yeah, me neither. I love the idea of a communal society, where everyone benefits from surplus, and little or nothing is wasted. This seems possible on a small scale, such as co-housing communities, but perhaps is not workable on a national basis.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineFospher
Crime FightingMaster Criminal
Male

Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 2,033
Loc: The Netherlands
Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
Re: money vs ability [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5792848 - 06/26/06 03:20 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
First, I would close off the material commerce.  Then after awhile, I would close off the commerce of ideas. 




The creation of something new is result of collaboration of minds and ideas. You can't talk of a futuristic utopia, yet reject the means to get there.

Quote:

All ideas are variations of the origional Idea.  Once we have studied the variations, we must go back to the original, and make our own variations without outside influence. 




There's no need to reinvent the wheel. Or the steam engine, the jet plane, the microprocessor that's running your computer for that matter. Let me make sure I got your plan down - get a flat piece of land and reinvent everything from the past 6000+ years, by yourself? You need a reality check, J.  :crazy:


--------------------
010001100100001001000101!


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineFospher
Crime FightingMaster Criminal
Male

Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 2,033
Loc: The Netherlands
Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
Re: money vs ability [Re: Veritas]
    #5792905 - 06/26/06 03:39 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Yeah, me neither. I love the idea of a communal society, where everyone benefits from surplus, and little or nothing is wasted. This seems possible on a small scale, such as co-housing communities, but perhaps is not workable on a national basis.




I hate the cliche "it works in theory".

Let's start this society: We will all be rich, and never need anything, and live in an island off the bahamas. It works in theory, any of you care to try this out?

And yes, communism would work on a small-scale basis. Say a company of five people, where everyone gets the same paycheck on the end of the week. One person stops working, and the company experiences a major drawback. Now, picture a company of a thousand people. One person stops working.

"Hey, I don't have to do anything, and I still get paid!"

And then the company goes down the drain.

Also, communism highly depends on the community that it's exposed to. For example, Sweden is a highly socialistic country, almost communist, yet it's one of the best places to live. A janitor almost gets the same paycheck as a college professor, yet the high school test scores are one of the highest in the world. So, many (Americans) would ask, why would you work your ass off if in the end run, you'll still make the same dough as the guy who didn't work as hard as you did? Well that's because they work on a different premise. They don't work for a selfish means as an American does (nothing wrong with that btw) - to make as much money as possible - but for the welfare of the people and country. To each country each own political system, to each his own.


--------------------
010001100100001001000101!


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: money vs ability [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5792918 - 06/26/06 03:45 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I don't see what's so great about complete self-sufficiency. I prefer the interconnectedness and interdependence of society. Sure, you could grow your own food, build your own house, or even make your own tools, but society has advanced greatly because of specialization. I'd rather pay others to save me the time and work in order to devote myself to higher pursuits.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineFospher
Crime FightingMaster Criminal
Male

Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 2,033
Loc: The Netherlands
Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
Re: money vs ability [Re: capliberty]
    #5792921 - 06/26/06 03:46 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

capliberty said:
well I don't have any money, not a dam dollar, it sucks in some ways, I hate people calling me up to tell me I owe them, its like I owe them for living, who are these people anyway, I mean isn't it obvious I don't have any, so why bother me, to me it kind of breed superficiality, ever experience is hedged off money, including the most intimate, I see a kind virtue in broke people, people with money don't even give you the time of day, because their so important, they'll come along with this superficial act or some boss mentality,






And that whole post is ridiculous, btw. Do you not understand the premise behind borrowing money? You have to give it back, ya know.  :laugh:


--------------------
010001100100001001000101!


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineDoctorJ
Male

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,846
Loc: space
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
Re: money vs ability [Re: Silversoul]
    #5792995 - 06/26/06 04:09 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

"Overspecialize and you breed in weakness."

have you ever heard of the fox vs the hedgehog?

the fox is an expert at one thing, where the hedgehog is an amatuer at all things.

over time, the hedgehog always overcomes the fox.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleVeritas
 User Gallery
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
Re: money vs ability [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5793016 - 06/26/06 04:14 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Ahh, yes, from the great Anime philosopher, Major Motoko Kusanagi.

:lol:

As to the fox and the hedgehog, you have it reversed:
 
Quote:

The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing.

Archilochus (7th-century b.c.e.)




You were correct in your assertion that the hedgehog is successful in overcoming the fox, however.  Many business strategists rely upon this model to describe the folly of trying to know and do everything yourself (fox), as opposed to specializing in one area and hiring other hedgehog specialists for the rest.


Edited by Veritas (06/26/06 04:42 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinecapliberty
Stranger
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/23/06
Posts: 1,949
Last seen: 14 years, 5 months
Re: money vs ability [Re: Fospher]
    #5793253 - 06/26/06 05:27 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Fospher said:
Quote:

capliberty said:
well I don't have any money, not a dam dollar, it sucks in some ways, I hate people calling me up to tell me I owe them, its like I owe them for living, who are these people anyway, I mean isn't it obvious I don't have any, so why bother me, to me it kind of breed superficiality, ever experience is hedged off money, including the most intimate, I see a kind virtue in broke people, people with money don't even give you the time of day, because their so important, they'll come along with this superficial act or some boss mentality,






And that whole post is ridiculous, btw. Do you not understand the premise behind borrowing money? You have to give it back, ya know.  :laugh:




Did I say I was in debt, and even if I do owe them, can't they see I have nothing to pay them,or how about the system manufacturing a case against you about something that you never done, then I have to pay them for a crime that I never committed, it seems like I'm not the only one that wants something for nothing, or how about a faulty system which its purpose is to deny, deny, deny, add a little bit of compassion to the equation and you have a formula for a totally bogus job at the expense of everyone else.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineRedstorm
Prince of Bugs
Male

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 3 months, 11 days
Re: money vs ability [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5793702 - 06/26/06 08:00 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

He never said anything about overspecializing. One can specialize at some things and still be adequate in others.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleMushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: money vs ability [Re: Veritas]
    #5794159 - 06/26/06 10:03 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Aside from the fact they both reject the free market, I'd say Technocracy could be considered the polar opposite of communism or socialism. It seems more like one gigantic conglomerated corporate monopoly. They don't call themselves "Technocracy Inc" for nothin.

But.... I only think Technocracy could work if it incorporated a free market in some form.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: money vs ability [Re: Fospher]
    #5795496 - 06/27/06 10:57 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Fospher said:
And yes, communism would work on a small-scale basis. Say a company of five people, where everyone gets the same paycheck on the end of the week. One person stops working, and the company experiences a major drawback. Now, picture a company of a thousand people. One person stops working.

"Hey, I don't have to do anything, and I still get paid!"

And then the company goes down the drain.



Sorry, but that's not communism. Communism is not about people getting paid for nothing. It's about the workers getting paid the full product of their labor(in accordance with the labor theory of value).


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineFospher
Crime FightingMaster Criminal
Male

Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 2,033
Loc: The Netherlands
Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
Re: money vs ability [Re: capliberty]
    #5796160 - 06/27/06 03:36 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

I hate people calling me up to tell me I owe them




Quote:

Did I say I was in debt




Having money that you owe to others puts you in position of debt, whether you borrowed all that money or not. You can owe money to the government for a criminal conviction without actually having loaned it. Does your inability to compensate for the money that you owe exempt your debt? It does not, unless your inability was a disability, and you were an invalid.


--------------------
010001100100001001000101!


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePanoramix
Getafix
Male

Registered: 11/26/03
Posts: 634
Loc: Everywhere else
Last seen: 11 years, 3 months
Re: money vs ability [Re: Fospher]
    #5798142 - 06/28/06 01:18 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

"my biological father is a biblical reference! Big G is walkin around on this planet right now, honey. He hates this place alnmost as much as I do. We're both lookin forward to going home." - Doc J

You've inspired me to write a lil haiku, goes like this;

You are crazy as
All those bedbugs 'twixt my sheets.
Get a CAT scan, man.

In non-haiku form it goes a little something like this;

Oh Delusion, Sweet Delusion!
Wrapped like cotton 'round my head
Send me softly off to my bed
Shield me from this reality
With assertions all ballad-y
Of soft lyres and singing dame
To know that life is all a game
That I have already won
For I am that most famous Son
Exaggerate my self-worth
Make me feel like the best on Earth
And I'll let you nestle in my head
Safe from thought which makes you dead.

In my most humble of opinions there ought to be an entire forum dedicated exclusively to haikus.


--------------------
Don't worry, I'm wrong.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineDoctorJ
Male

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,846
Loc: space
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
Re: money vs ability [Re: Panoramix]
    #5798148 - 06/28/06 01:21 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

my head is closed for business.

the others who have sought shelter there should try using their own heads for a change.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineFospher
Crime FightingMaster Criminal
Male

Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 2,033
Loc: The Netherlands
Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
Re: money vs ability [Re: Silversoul]
    #5799938 - 06/28/06 04:12 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

Fospher said:
And yes, communism would work on a small-scale basis. Say a company of five people, where everyone gets the same paycheck on the end of the week. One person stops working, and the company experiences a major drawback. Now, picture a company of a thousand people. One person stops working.

"Hey, I don't have to do anything, and I still get paid!"

And then the company goes down the drain.



Sorry, but that's not communism. Communism is not about people getting paid for nothing. It's about the workers getting paid the full product of their labor(in accordance with the labor theory of value).




Who determines "the full product of their value"? In a communist government, everyone gets an equal paycheck, because they work for their country's welfare, and not for their own. Give up themselves for the greater good, so to speak.

Of course Communism isn't about people getting paid for nothing, but in essense that's exactly what happens. People find that they can easily take advantage of the system if they dont share the same virtues as the government, and once enough people realize this - the system collapses.

Communism is only applicable in a homogenous nation, like Sweden, where everyone is virtually from the same origin.


--------------------
010001100100001001000101!


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: money vs ability [Re: Fospher]
    #5799974 - 06/28/06 04:22 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Fospher said:
Who determines "the full product of their value"?



It's really quite simple: Since under communism, the means of production are owned by the workers, there is no capitalist owner to keep all the profit. Therefore, the profits are split equally among the workers.

Quote:

In a communist government, everyone gets an equal paycheck, because they work for their country's welfare, and not for their own. Give up themselves for the greater good, so to speak.



Not true. They get an equal share of the profit their labor produces, but that doesn't mean everyone gets paid the same amount.

Quote:

Of course Communism isn't about people getting paid for nothing, but in essense that's exactly what happens. People find that they can easily take advantage of the system if they dont share the same virtues as the government, and once enough people realize this - the system collapses.



I do think there are some systemic problems with Marxist socialism(not necessarily Communism itself, which is the end-state predicted by Marx). But the main problem is not "human nature" or corruption, as so many ignorant Westerners spew mindlessly about. The problem is the logistical nightmare involved in having a command economy. The allocation of resources is much more difficult and inefficient than in a market economy.

Quote:

Communism is only applicable in a homogenous nation, like Sweden, where everyone is virtually from the same origin.



Sweden does not, nor has it ever had, anything resembling Communism. Sweden is a social democracy, or welfare state. It has a controlled market with high taxes and high amounts of social services. This has nothing to do with Communism. You are seriously misinformed about Communism. I suggest studying Marx sometime, rather than simply spew Cold War propaganda.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineFospher
Crime FightingMaster Criminal
Male

Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 2,033
Loc: The Netherlands
Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
Re: money vs ability [Re: Silversoul]
    #5800051 - 06/28/06 04:47 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
It's really quite simple:  Since under communism, the means of production are owned by the workers, there is no capitalist owner to keep all the profit.  Therefore, the profits are split equally among the workers.




I.e. everyone getting the same paycheck. The type of the job does not determine your profit, the amount may.

Quote:


I do think there are some systemic problems with Marxist socialism(not necessarily Communism itself, which is the end-state predicted by Marx).  But the main problem is not "human nature" or corruption, as so many ignorant Westerners spew mindlessly about.  The problem is the logistical nightmare involved in having a command economy.  The allocation of resources is much more difficult and inefficient than in a market economy.




Allocation of resources and the lack of will to work both contribute to the system's decay.

Quote:

Sweden does not, nor has it ever had, anything resembling Communism.  Sweden is a social democracy, or welfare state.  It has a controlled market with high taxes and high amounts of social services.  This has nothing to do with Communism.  You are seriously misinformed about Communism.  I suggest studying Marx sometime, rather than simply spew Cold War propaganda.




Sweden is extremely Socialistic, it's almost Communist. A janitor will get the same payrate as a college professor, the free market is 95% in control of the state.

And for the record, you don't know me, so stop talking like you think you do.

:smirk:

I am not a Westerner - a Eurasianer maybe - but definetly not born in the States. I was born in USSR during the Perestroika, and actually lived through the system until it collapsed in '91. I've never read Das Kapital or the Manifesto, nor do I have the desire to, I've seen the failure of the system first hand.


--------------------
010001100100001001000101!


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3  [ show all ]

Shop: North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   PhytoExtractum Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   Original Sensible Seeds Bulk Cannabis Seeds   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Lynn V. Andrews (female Castaneda)
( 1 2 all )
Swami 3,793 31 07/13/04 07:46 PM
by Huehuecoyotl
* psychic abilities
( 1 2 3 all )
annielicious 4,693 56 03/26/04 02:19 PM
by Swami
* Telekinetic Hedgehogs? PhilosoPossum 941 11 11/02/01 04:54 PM
by anfibio
* Grave Robber v.s. Archaeologist
( 1 2 3 all )
Swami 4,274 58 10/21/02 11:18 PM
by shii-tan
* The ability to conceptualize
( 1 2 all )
TrueBrode 4,049 27 01/18/04 01:05 PM
by jpod
* Do Mushrooms Affect One's Ability to Astral Project?
( 1 2 3 4 all )
YellowSubmarine 9,128 71 07/08/10 11:31 AM
by mushroomexplorer
* The Ability to Zoom
( 1 2 all )
fireworks_godS 1,404 33 11/15/03 12:38 PM
by Vulture
* Evolution of Mental Abilities - Child Geniuses vs. Darwinism....
( 1 2 all )
PhanTomCat 2,598 24 09/01/05 10:05 PM
by psychomime

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, DividedQuantum
2,192 topic views. 0 members, 8 guests and 1 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.026 seconds spending 0.006 seconds on 12 queries.