Home | Community | Message Board
You are not signed in.
Sign In New Account
Forum Index Search Posts Trusted Vendors Highlights Galleries FAQ User List Chat Store Random Growery


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
Threaded Mode Threaded  Previous topic Previous  View all topics Index  Next topic Next 

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Sporeworks.EU Spores for European Microscopy   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   PhytoExtractum Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Original Sensible Seeds Bulk Cannabis Seeds

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2 | 3  [ show all ]
Evidence of soul and afterlife
    #5790031 -

Ok, the other thread sort of gave me an idea, so istead of letting it be lost in that thread, I'd like to make a discussion out of it..

Many of you say there is no evidence of soul, afterlife, god and such things

So, I wonder, what is your idea of how this evidence should look like

Ok, you are standing on the street, you have a minivan full of gass, and all kinds of measuring devices that there are in it.
where would you go to search for evidence and how?
What would you expect to find if those things trully did exist?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Evidence of soul and afterlife [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5790145 -

There's no proof of the non-existance of an afterlife, however there is evidence of the contrary.


--------------------
010001100100001001000101!

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Evidence of soul and afterlife [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5791203 -

It is impossible to find evidence of a soul, afterlife, god, etc in any empiric, inductive, or operational sense. These are things that we can only chatter about.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Evidence of soul and afterlife [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5791626 -

MushmanTheManic said:
It is impossible to find evidence of a soul, afterlife, god, etc in any empiric, inductive, or operational sense. These are things that we can only chatter about.


then they do not exist?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Evidence of soul and afterlife [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5791693 -

OldWoodSpecter said:
then they do not exist?


They may exist, but not in any way that matters (to us). Essentially, they would be extra-universal, having no impact upon this one, and thus, effectively, are nonexistent (to us).

Tell me, if there was an invisible, intangible object, not affected by any of the forces of this universe, would we ever be able to detect it? Would it matter? Could it truly be said to be of this universe?

By definition, no, no, and no.


--------------------
If you don't ask the question, you always get it wrong.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Evidence of soul and afterlife [Re: Xanthas]
    #5791822 -

What about Astral Projection? I haven't been able to AP yet, but I've been real close.....close enough to know that it IS REAL.

What I've read about AP, it seems that it is the proof that we do have a soul and afterlife. Yet the only way to prove it, is for each individual to do it theirselves.....which most people aren't even open minded enough to even try it.


--------------------
"Visualize the action, then actualize the vision." - King of the Hill

“Long you live and high you'll fly and smiles you'll give and tears you'll cry and all you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be.”- Pink Floyd

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Evidence of soul and afterlife [Re: ElectricJW]
    #5791824 -

There is no way to scientifically prove it, it's pointless.  It's not that science disproves it.  Science has nothing to say about religion and religion has nothing to say about science.  All proof of these topics is completely experiential, my proof means nothing to you and the only proof that is meaningful is your own personal experience of proof.  That's why it's silly to attempt to prove anything.  And you sure as heck won't prove it with science :smile:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Evidence of soul and afterlife [Re: thatiAM]
    #5791879 -

This thread was aimed at people who rely on proof in their beliefs that there is no afterlife god and soul, so I was asking them more or less

Maybe this should have been posted in the science forum


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Evidence of soul and afterlife [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5791988 -

It is not required that skeptics prove that God/Heaven/the soul do not exist, as they are not the claimants.  The burden of proof lies with the claimants.  As there is no proof, and probably cannot be any proof, it is purely opinion and subjective interpretation of experience.

This is just fine, except that many religious believers take the stance that THEIR subjective opinion should dictate law and education, that it is acceptable for them to pass judgment (and even engage in hate crimes) on harmless lifestyle choices (pre-marital sex, gay marriage, agnosticism, feminism, etc.) and that everyone else is responsible for proving that their mythology is non-factual.  :thumbdown:

If we cannot PROVE either the non-existence nor the existence of a soul, God, Heaven, Hell, Jesus, etc... then it is all just "best guess."  It seems far simpler and more equitable to keep our beliefs in the subjective realm, seek to do no harm to others, and find a path which opens our hearts and minds to our life experiences.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Evidence of soul and afterlife [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5792083 -

I have no idea what it would sound like, seeing as how I've never heard a satisfactory proof. However I do know that it would be logical and reasonable.

You could counter that the soul/self is transcendent of logic and reason, but that's a hunk of BS. With that thinking, ANYTHING could be said to exist. For instance, a flying spaghetti monster whose nonphysical tentacles are actually physically manifested as us could be said to be real; and no one could question it because it transcends logic and reason :rolleyes:


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Evidence of soul and afterlife [Re: dblaney]
    #5792552 -

A flying spaghetti monster is still physical phenomena


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Evidence of soul and afterlife [Re: Basilides]
    #5792710 -

Not if I say it's a nonphysical flying spaghetti monster! :grin:


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Evidence of soul and afterlife [Re: dblaney]
    #5792713 -

In order to experience the Flying Spaghetti Monster you must to learn to open your third nostril.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Evidence of soul and afterlife [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5792730 -

:levitate:

:lol:


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Evidence of soul and afterlife [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5792761 -

Ommmmmmm....mmmmm...I smell his Sacred Marinara.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Evidence of soul and afterlife [Re: Veritas]
    #5792979 -

Veritas said:
It is not required that skeptics prove that God/Heaven/the soul do not exist, as they are not the claimants.  The burden of proof lies with the claimants.  As there is no proof, and probably cannot be any proof, it is purely opinion and subjective interpretation of experience.

This is just fine, except that many religious believers take the stance that THEIR subjective opinion should dictate law and education, that it is acceptable for them to pass judgment (and even engage in hate crimes) on harmless lifestyle choices (pre-marital sex, gay marriage, agnosticism, feminism, etc.) and that everyone else is responsible for proving that their mythology is non-factual.  :thumbdown:

If we cannot PROVE either the non-existence nor the existence of a soul, God, Heaven, Hell, Jesus, etc... then it is all just "best guess."  It seems far simpler and more equitable to keep our beliefs in the subjective realm, seek to do no harm to others, and find a path which opens our hearts and minds to our life experiences.


you are still missing the point of this thread.
My questions was:

If you had a van full of wquipment where would you go to look for evidence?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Evidence of soul and afterlife [Re: dblaney]
    #5792988 -

dblaney said:
seeing as how I've never heard a satisfactory proof.


And where did you look for that proof? Where did you expect to see it and how did you expect it to look like?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Evidence of soul and afterlife [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5793132 -

And where did you look for that proof?

Inside of myself, in books, in the world around me, in people around me, in words, in pictures, etc. etc.

Where did you expect to see it and how did you expect it to look like?

I tried to not have any expectations.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Evidence of soul and afterlife [Re: dblaney]
    #5793155 -

dblaney said:
And where did you look for that proof?

Inside of myself, in books, in the world around me, in people around me, in words, in pictures, etc. etc.

Where did you expect to see it and how did you expect it to look like?

I tried to not have any expectations.


You say you looked in yourself (subjective evidence is weak),
in the world around you (what, you went to the street at visually looked around or what), pictures, words (that doesn't sound like a place you'd find scientific evidence)

all in all, this doesn't sound like scientific method

Also you said you didn't have expectations?
How are you supose to find something if you have no expectations what it is?

If you don't have a general idea of what microwaves are, you can search every aquarium in the world and not find any


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

Edited by OldWoodSpecter (06/26/06 04:57 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Evidence of soul and afterlife [Re: dblaney]
    #5793184 -

dblaney said:
I have no idea what it would sound like, seeing as how I've never heard a satisfactory proof. However I do know that it would be logical and reasonable.

You could counter that the soul/self is transcendent of logic and reason, but that's a hunk of BS. With that thinking, ANYTHING could be said to exist. For instance, a flying spaghetti monster whose nonphysical tentacles are actually physically manifested as us could be said to be real; and no one could question it because it transcends logic and reason :rolleyes:


And the situation would make you roll your eyes whether it was true or not. Nothing is proven because you disbelieve, as nothing is proven because someone believes. God didn't want his presence forced upon us, and that is the reason why it shall remain a personal decision whether or not God exists, your soul exists, etc. etc., and that's just the way it is!


--------------------
:orly:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Evidence of soul and afterlife [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5793217 -

OldWoodSpecter said:
dblaney said:
And where did you look for that proof?

Inside of myself, in books, in the world around me, in people around me, in words, in pictures, etc. etc.

Where did you expect to see it and how did you expect it to look like?

I tried to not have any expectations.


You say you looked in yourself (subjective evidence is weak),
in the world around you (what, you went to the street at visually looked around or what), pictures, words (that doesn't sound like a place you'd find scientific evidence)

all in all, this doesn't sound like scientific method

Also you said you didn't have expectations?
How are you supose to find something if you have no expectations what it is?

If you don't have a general idea of what microwaves are, you can search every aquarium in the world and not find any


What are you trying to get at here?

Are you trying to suggest that I'm not looking in the right manner or in the right places? Because if you are I am always open for suggestions.

But you've shot down looking within, and you sort of shot down looking without (and for the record by outside I didn't mean I stood in the middle of the street...I meant I looked at other people, prayed, looked at artwork, read related books, got Bar-Mitzvahed, studied history, celebrated holy days, etc.) and aside from within and without there's nada.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Evidence of soul and afterlife [Re: Veritas]
    #5793241 -

As there is no proof, and probably cannot be any proof, it is purely opinion and subjective interpretation of experience.

This topic comes up often. It's because some people claim to be able to do things that would certainly constitute evidence of 'something more' but somehow they can never actually do it. Astral projection, for example.

When these people are challenged to a fair and objective controlled test of their claim, they either refuse in a flurry of ad hominems, or participate and fail miserably, then follow up with a flurry of ad hominems.

I don't have a problem with people saying that they play golf with God when they astral project; that's entirely subjective and I have no comment on it. What I have a problem with is that these people claim they can bring back the golf ball, but when I ask to see it, they never seem to have it. :shrug:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Evidence of soul and afterlife [Re: Diploid]
    #5793249 -

You can't bring back the golf ball. That's my whole point in a nutshell right there.


--------------------
:orly:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Evidence of soul and afterlife [Re: Microcosmatrix]
    #5793257 -

Then why do so many astral projectors (and myriad other 'mystics') say that they can?

Why can't any astral projector ever tell the researcher what page the book in the next room is open to, for example?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Evidence of soul and afterlife [Re: dblaney]
    #5793274 -

What I'm getting at is that people like you conclude non-existence of something that they don't even have an idea what it is supose to be, what it was supose to be made of, and where is it supose to be.

I'm not saying believers have the right idea, because I too have no idea.

It's sort of like searching for "twins" in new york at the right location (before 9/11 of course), and when you get there you see no twins and you report back saying, I saw no two people looking alike in that square, therefore the information was false.
But the truth is you were sent to that location searching for something, and you didn't have idea what it is.

In order for one to conclude that there is no evidence of a soul where it should be had there really been such a thing, one would need to have a general idea what is this soul.
And how many general ideas have you hear in your life? Well I've heard none. I never heard one theory describind what soul could be.
All I hear is people talking about what it means to them, that or some comic-book energy field talk which really comes from pre-elementary school understanding of physics. And that is really neither provable or disprovable.

In order to expect a certain kind of evidence and know where to look for it, you need a solid model of what you are looking for.
First you need to know in which cathegory it belongs:
Is it a type of fish? If it is a fish, you can look in the sea
Is it a type of road transportation? If it is, you look on the streets
Is it a wave? If yes, you take an antenna and look for it
Is it an asteroid? If yes, you take a telescope and look for it

I hope you get my point. Cathegories determine expectations of evidence.

And so far nobody has came up with a cathegory in which the word "soul" would belong to, so nobody can really conclude wheather there is or is no evidence to support that aincient myth


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Evidence of soul and afterlife [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5793303 -

So for millenia people have been claiming that everyone has a soul, yet no one knows just what a 'soul' actually is or is not. Yet that hasn't stopped them from claiming that everyone has one and then using that as a means of control to determine everything from social rank, property ownership, wealth, marriage, morality, law, government, etc.

Do you ever get the feeling that maybe looking for a soul is like a wild goose chase, completely distracting you from experiencing the present moment?


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Evidence of soul and afterlife [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5793305 -

OldWoodSpecter said:
Veritas said:
It is not required that skeptics prove that God/Heaven/the soul do not exist, as they are not the claimants.  The burden of proof lies with the claimants.  As there is no proof, and probably cannot be any proof, it is purely opinion and subjective interpretation of experience.

This is just fine, except that many religious believers take the stance that THEIR subjective opinion should dictate law and education, that it is acceptable for them to pass judgment (and even engage in hate crimes) on harmless lifestyle choices (pre-marital sex, gay marriage, agnosticism, feminism, etc.) and that everyone else is responsible for proving that their mythology is non-factual.  :thumbdown:

If we cannot PROVE either the non-existence nor the existence of a soul, God, Heaven, Hell, Jesus, etc... then it is all just "best guess."  It seems far simpler and more equitable to keep our beliefs in the subjective realm, seek to do no harm to others, and find a path which opens our hearts and minds to our life experiences.


you are still missing the point of this thread.
My questions was:

If you had a van full of wquipment where would you go to look for evidence?


The point is, there is nowhere to GO to look for evidence.  Insubstantial, untestable, unproveable concepts do not produce evidence.  In the absence of evidence, the most reasonable theory is that it DOES NOT exist, not that it DOES exist, but it must be taken on faith in order to be experienced.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Evidence of soul and afterlife [Re: Diploid]
    #5793307 -

Diploid said:
As there is no proof, and probably cannot be any proof, it is purely opinion and subjective interpretation of experience.

This topic comes up often. It's because some people claim to be able to do things that would certainly constitute evidence of 'something more' but somehow they can never actually do it. Astral projection, for example.

When these people are challenged to a fair and objective controlled test of their claim, they either refuse in a flurry of ad hominems, or participate and fail miserably, then follow up with a flurry of ad hominems.

I don't have a problem with people saying that they play golf with God when they astral project; that's entirely subjective and I have no comment on it. What I have a problem with is that these people claim they can bring back the golf ball, but when I ask to see it, they never seem to have it. :shrug:


This has to be the first thing resambling an answer to my original question so far..

I asked where would you look

Your answer is, you would look in abilities of people

thanks

What do I have to say to that?
What if the only effect of the soul is simply consciousness, and you are what you are..

Plus, even if you did find evidence of people moving objects and such things, those would not really be proof of existence of soul.
A biological being could use hidden properties of the universe to do such things without having any kind of soul or afterlife.

So not only is this not a necessary result of existence of soul, but it works the other way around too: Such effect would not even be hard proof of existence of soul because it could be explained in other ways.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Evidence of soul and afterlife [Re: Fospher]
    #5793322 -

Fospher said:
There's no proof of the non-existance of an afterlife, however there is evidence of the contrary.


Please elaborate!


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Evidence of soul and afterlife [Re: Veritas]
    #5793342 -

Veritas said:
OldWoodSpecter said:
Veritas said:
It is not required that skeptics prove that God/Heaven/the soul do not exist, as they are not the claimants.  The burden of proof lies with the claimants.  As there is no proof, and probably cannot be any proof, it is purely opinion and subjective interpretation of experience.

This is just fine, except that many religious believers take the stance that THEIR subjective opinion should dictate law and education, that it is acceptable for them to pass judgment (and even engage in hate crimes) on harmless lifestyle choices (pre-marital sex, gay marriage, agnosticism, feminism, etc.) and that everyone else is responsible for proving that their mythology is non-factual.  :thumbdown:

If we cannot PROVE either the non-existence nor the existence of a soul, God, Heaven, Hell, Jesus, etc... then it is all just "best guess."  It seems far simpler and more equitable to keep our beliefs in the subjective realm, seek to do no harm to others, and find a path which opens our hearts and minds to our life experiences.


you are still missing the point of this thread.
My questions was:

If you had a van full of wquipment where would you go to look for evidence?


The point is, there is nowhere to GO to look for evidence.  Insubstantial, untestable, unproveable concepts do not produce evidence.  In the absence of evidence, the most reasonable theory is that it DOES NOT exist, not that it DOES exist, but it must be taken on faith in order to be experienced.


Why is the concept of soul untestable?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Evidence of soul and afterlife [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5793348 -

Because tests would have to rely upon self-reporting of subjective data. The soul, i.e. the immortal essence of our lifeforce, cannot be scientifically verified.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Evidence of soul and afterlife [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5793354 -

What if the only effect of the soul is simply consciousness, and you are what you are..

Then all we can do is speculate and discuss for the fun of it.

Plus, even if you did find evidence of people moving objects and such things, those would not really be proof of existence of soul.

Well, I dunno about you, but if someone finally and definitively demonstrates something like astral projection, it would cause me to reconsider all my beliefs, including my current belief that there is probably nothing more and that the universe is probably nihilistic.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Evidence of soul and afterlife [Re: dblaney]
    #5793369 -

dblaney said:
So for millenia people have been claiming that everyone has a soul, yet no one knows just what a 'soul' actually is or is not. ment, etc.



That's my point. You can't expect evidence of something if you don't know what cathegory it belongs in.

What if someone claimed in 12th century that there are radio waves in the air, yet didn't say what they were.
People would look in the air, and see nothing, then they would smell it, and smell nothing. They would search the entire earth and ask the old and the wise if they remember seeing radio waves in the sky.
And then they would finally conclude, that this concept does not exist because it leaves no evidence

Was their logic correct?

No

Why?

Because they didn't know in which cathegory to put radio waves in.
That and they didn't have senses to detect them.

Do you ever ask yourself, how many thousands of different phenomena as unimaginable to use as radio waves were to them, exist in the universe?
Do non of them exist because there is no evidence of them to us?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Evidence of soul and afterlife [Re: Diploid]
    #5793393 -

Diploid said:
What if the only effect of the soul is simply consciousness, and you are what you are..

Then all we can do is speculate and discuss for the fun of it.




No, if a "soul" exists, it exists in reality, and reality is measurable. If soul did exist, it would have to exist within undiscovered properties of the universe.
It all depends on the level of technology used to detect things.

Look at my radio waves in 12th century analogy in the previous post.

Right now most people expect to see energy fields, film fogging and stuff like that as a result of "soul".
But if soul does exist (and leaves no such evidence), that's probably probably because such a method is like looking around and trying to see radio waves.

One can with almost 100% certainty say that there are things around us that are invisible to our senses and all our current technology,
because that's just how things go in science, there is always something new discovered which was not detectable before. New particles, new waves, new phenomena, all of which was invisible to us the previous day, and there is certainly more to come because we haven't mastered the whole universe.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Evidence of soul and afterlife [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5793396 -

Radio Waves.... Was their logic correct?

No

Still, in epistemology, the default condition is to not believe something exists until some evidence of it is found.

This is reasonable because without that mechanism, we would have to believe EVERYTHING exists just in case even though there is no evidence. We'd have to grant that a soul exists, and the FSM exists, and the Tooth Fairy exists, and Big Foot exists, and the Loch Ness Monster exists, and the Great Green Arkelseisure exists, and so on until you become dysfunctional.

Better to say none of those things appear to exist and live your life as if they don't, than to default to believing that they DO exist and clutter your mind with junk on the off chance that some of those unevidenced things are real.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Edited by Diploid (06/26/06 06:15 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Evidence of soul and afterlife [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5793407 -

There was a man named Irving Copi who said:

Quote:
The argumentum ad ignorantiam [fallacy] is committed whenever it is argued that a proposition is true simply on the basis that it has not been proved false, or that it is false because it has not been proved true. He adds, A qualification should be made at this point. In some circumstances it can be safely assumed that if a certain event had occurred, evidence of it could be discovered by qualified investigators. In such circumstances it is perfectly reasonable to take the absence of proof of its occurrence despite searching, as positive evidence towards its non-occurrence.


I am of the opinion that there are or have been those who could be considered qualified 'investigators'. None have yet provided proof of its existence, so I think it is reasonable to take the absence of proof, despite searching, as positive evidence towards its non-existence.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Evidence of soul and afterlife [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5793408 -

To me a soul represents a holographic you, a distant spirit that is the real you, that resides in your physical body, if you separate the spirit from the body then the body should be dead for the spirit is the supposed giver of life to your body. Now that I've defined it, is it possible to look for,

I'd say only in your experience, I'd have to do more research on the nature of hallucinations with drugs, because the common accepted truth about hallucinations is that its a mental depiction from your brain projected into the world by the use of a medium. That hallucinations is totally interdependent to the brain, and not dependent on anything outside the brain,

although I have experienced sharp hallucinations in certain areas, but once moved they seized, as I moved back into the area they reoccur, giving me the notion that environment plays a part, this is important fact because it suggest that hallucinations are more than mental projections and have some dependent relationship to the environment

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Evidence of soul and afterlife [Re: Diploid]
    #5793427 -

Diploid said:
Was their logic correct?

No

Still, in epistemology, the default condition is to not believe something exists until some evidence of it is found.

This is reasonable because without that mechanism, we would have to believe EVERYTHING exists just in case even though there is no evidence. We'd have to grand that a soul exists, and the FSM exists, and the Tooth Fairy exists, and Big Foot exists, and the Loch Ness Monster exists, and the Great Green Arkelseisure exists, and so on until you become dysfunctional.

Better to say none of those things appear to exist and live your life as if they don't, than to default to believing that they DO exist and clutter your mind with junk on the off chance that some of those unevidenced things are real.


There is a difference between saying things do exist and not saying they don't exist.

The whole thing starts with myths, or testimonies or whatever, then a concept is created (so it's not the same as when you imagine things and go testing them, because you have a claim for this).
Then the concept can be kept on ice until it is clearly intentified and becomes testable.

The concept of soul and god has not yet been intentified and put in a proper cathegory so you can't test it

And if you can't test it the only thing you can do is say: I don't know wheather it exists or not.

So, what you can do with it in the mean time is discuss it for fun as you say, or make faith leaps and believe, or not believe.

Most people believe or do not believe by default, because it's hard not to have an opinion.
But what happens then is non-believers start thinking their choice is a logical one.
But both being a believer in something yet-untestable or being a disbeliever is the same thing, it's some kind of a unproven belief: it's an offset from the logical position of not having a belief about it

As we are not 100% logical beings it is natural to believe either in existence or non-existence of such an untested concept.
But non-believers must understand that they are making the same kind of faith leap as believers only in the oposite direction.
That's all I expect from people.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Evidence of soul and afterlife [Re: Microcosmatrix]
    #5793458 -

God didn't want his presence forced upon us

This may be, but I think that if God was anything other than a flaming asshole, He would at least verifiably show himself to EVERYONE who seeks Him with good intentions.

Me, for example.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Evidence of soul and afterlife [Re: Diploid]
    #5793482 -

But you are not willing to grovel dude.  :evil:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Evidence of soul and afterlife [Re: Icelander]
    #5793503 -

Icelander said:
But you are not willing to grovel dude.  :evil:


maybe there's some truth in that :smile:


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Evidence of soul and afterlife [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5794656 -

I'm an asshole.

Anyway...

What the hell is up with "evidence" these days? Did anyone ever prove that evidence proves anything, and what the fuck is this virus going around making people think that they think when they really just negate shit for the purpose of being fucking knowitalls?

Like we all don't know that we all are n-e-r-d-s with absolutely nothing to lean on but ourselves and the substances we use to induce psychosis which leads us to the righteous path of meditating - or SITTING AROUND DOING NOTHING, as I like to call it.

Way to go proving something for the sake of something.

What the fuck is wrong with my mood today?

I get so uptight and downright angry whenever anyone tries to imply that there is any sort of consistency in anything, and that any way is the only way or a way at all.

This is the closest thing to truth, yet. This is such utter bullshit, and so filled with subjective emotions that it has close to no meaning at all. Am I a fucking dadaist, or what the fuck!?

I need to find an ideal. Next week I'm going to be a fucking fascist. Today I'm a rebel teenager, taking my bottled up (irrational) anger out on random forum posters.

I lost my train of ... whatever.

edit: Ontopic: Evidence for afterlife would look like slymer in ghostbusters.  :evil:


--------------------
The argent messenger of truth beyond truth, the antithesis of life, cruel and bleak as interstellar space, pulseless and frozen as absolute zero, dazzling with the frost of irrefragable logic and unforgettable fact.

Edited by slaphappy (06/27/06 01:13 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Evidence of soul and afterlife [Re: slaphappy]
    #5795028 -

slaphappy said:
I get so uptight and downright angry whenever anyone tries to imply that there is any sort of consistency in anything, and that any way is the only way or a way at all.


I'd recommend developing as an individual, then. :wink:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Evidence of soul and afterlife [Re: Diploid]
    #5795711 -

Diploid said:
God didn't want his presence forced upon us

This may be, but I think that if God was anything other than a  flaming asshole, He would at least verifiably show himself to EVERYONE who seeks Him with good intentions.

Me, for example.


And there's your problem right there, for God is Love, not an asshole. :smirk:

And you can't call God and expect him to come right away as if he were a Saint Bernard, either.

It's usually people's bad attitudes that prevent them from finding God right away, especially when they try to test God. Nevertheless, seek and ye shall find, it's just going to be on God's terms, not yours. Peace.  :cool:


--------------------
:orly:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Evidence of soul and afterlife [Re: Icelander]
    #5795726 -

Icelander said:
But you are not willing to grovel dude.  :evil:


It's not groveling which is required, it's a willingness to begin Loving.

Don't confuse what spews forth from modern church people as the voice of God.


--------------------
:orly:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Evidence of soul and afterlife [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5795832 -

OldWoodSpecter said:
Icelander said:
But you are not willing to grovel dude.  :evil:


maybe there's some truth in that :smile:


The truth of that lies in the statement of Microcosmatrix, who said, G*d wouldn't force his existence to the knowledge of humans (or similar).
That made very much sense to me and a good point to consider. It lets explode the scientific concept into some totally different context. I like that very much and it resonates very well with all that I have experienced about that question.

But about the 'prove to exist' thing, I am totally on your side. Both sides are a step on faith, whether you believe in, or not believe in. You did very very well formulations ! And I agree with them wholeheartedly. I think, the Occams Razor Game is not a good game for the experience of humans. Perhaps for those, who are in problems from 'overleaning' too heavily to the 'spiritual' side and are in danger to loose the ground of their physical and provable 'existence' under their feet...

Very interesting thread. Seems old, but is still very relevant.
:thumbup:

Ps:Sorry for bad wording...


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Evidence of soul and afterlife [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5795844 -

Indeed. And an attempt to "prove the existance of God" is also an attempt to reduce the creator of the universe to the status of a lab rat.

He doesn't allow that.

Seeking him for a personal relationship of Love he allows.


--------------------
:orly:


Edited by Microcosmatrix (06/27/06 01:19 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Evidence of soul and afterlife [Re: Diploid]
    #5795949 -

Diploid said:
Better to say none of those things appear to exist and live your life as if they don't, than to default to believing that they DO exist and clutter your mind with junk on the off chance that some of those unevidenced things are real.


Sad that you even had to explain that.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Evidence of soul and afterlife [Re: it stars saddam]
    #5795992 -

Atheists always seem so shallow and narrow focused, believing only what they see. What a caged, depressing, hollowed-out existence it must be.


--------------------
:orly:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Evidence of soul and afterlife [Re: dblaney]
    #5796132 -

Simple, my friend.

Many stories have been told of people witnessing the afterlife, be it heaven or hell, and coming back to earth, but none have been told by those that claim you just rot in the ground 6 feet under.


--------------------
010001100100001001000101!

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Evidence of soul and afterlife [Re: Fospher]
    #5796303 -

Fospher said:
Simple, my friend.

Many stories have been told of people witnessing the afterlife, be it heaven or hell, and coming back to earth, but none have been told by those that claim you just rot in the ground 6 feet under.


Where did you get that idea? NDE experiences are not more common with people of any specific beliefs.
Most of them come back with a belief quite different from what it was before.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Evidence of soul and afterlife [Re: Microcosmatrix]
    #5796350 -

Microcosmatrix said:
Atheists always seem so shallow and narrow focused, believing only what they see. What a caged, depressing, hollowed-out existence it must be.


Thank you for gracing us with that lugubrious stereotype.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Evidence of soul and afterlife [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5798347 -

I'm going to make some broad assumptions here, feel free to take issue with my faulty reasoning.

Let's define soul as the non-physical aspect of ourselves. Nice and vague, lots of wiggle room to work with. Naturally, if the soul is non-physical, it either will or won't be able to influence physical reality. Let's start with 'will'. If it can influence physical reality, it's detectable by virtue of the effects it produces. We'll once again make some nice broad assumptions; the soul's effect upon physical reality is that those who partake in one are alive, whereas that which doesn't isn't. Evidence would then lie in the differences between the live and the deceased('s body). The dead don't respire, they do decompose. They don't grow, they do decompose. They don't play Jenga, they do decompose. So the soul could be said to be the act of non-entropy common to all life in an otherwise ceaselessly entropic universe, as evidenced by life, everywhere. That's what the differences between life and death boil down to, I think. It's stupid-flawed, but hey...

Alright, now say the soul cannot affect physical reality. Where do I look for it? In non-physical reality, a contentious notion to those intent on arguing the point. So right off the bat I'm going to have a very hard time proving the existance of a soul to people who won't buy the very notion of the existance of the realm in which evidence was looked-for. No sense even arguing the point, if the soul has no affect on physical reality, as many would contest, than you'll either agree or not based on your conception of the nature of reality as strictly physical or as possessing some spiritual components (or as being entirely spiritual in nature, even).


--------------------
Don't worry, I'm wrong.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Evidence of soul and afterlife [Re: Microcosmatrix]
    #5798368 -

Microcosmatrix said:
Atheists always seem so shallow and narrow focused, believing only what they see. What a caged, depressing,  hollowed-out existence it must be.


I am an atheist. You are a hypocritical, judgemental asshole.

Fuck, now so am I ...  :smirk:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2 | 3  [ show all ]

Shop: Sporeworks.EU Spores for European Microscopy   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   PhytoExtractum Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Original Sensible Seeds Bulk Cannabis Seeds

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
Threaded Mode Threaded  Previous topic Previous  View all topics Index  Next topic Next 

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* How do i Find my "Soul"
( 1 2 3 all )		 Galvie_Flu 3,699 47 01/02/04 12:05 AM
by Anonymous
* I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God!
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 all )		 Anonymous 13,143 109 02/13/04 11:28 PM
by SpecialEd
* Best Evidence
( 1 2 3 all )		 Swami 2,919 40 08/15/03 04:24 PM
by Autonomous
* Evidence of UFO's V2
( 1 2 3 4 5 all )		 Ego Death 8,242 95 02/27/04 07:00 PM
by Atomisk
* Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from...
( 1 2 3 4 all )		 Shroomalicious 9,589 69 12/18/02 06:30 PM
by Strumpling
* soul mates? minusrestraint 1,629 14 07/07/03 12:05 PM
by crazycanadian
* Proof That God Does Not Exist
( 1 2 all )		 yewhew 4,378 37 02/21/04 03:34 AM
by raytrace
* Is it your soul mate if she cheated on you?
( 1 2 all )		 Amber_Glow 3,340 39 04/20/03 04:22 PM
by Anonymous

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, DividedQuantum
4,340 topic views. 0 members, 0 guests and 5 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2026 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.046 seconds spending 0.01 seconds on 16 queries.