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Invisibledblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: Evidence of soul and afterlife [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5793217 - 06/26/06 05:14 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
Quote:

dblaney said:
And where did you look for that proof?

Inside of myself, in books, in the world around me, in people around me, in words, in pictures, etc. etc.

Where did you expect to see it and how did you expect it to look like?

I tried to not have any expectations.




You say you looked in yourself (subjective evidence is weak),
in the world around you (what, you went to the street at visually looked around or what), pictures, words (that doesn't sound like a place you'd find scientific evidence)

all in all, this doesn't sound like scientific method

Also you said you didn't have expectations?
How are you supose to find something if you have no expectations what it is?

If you don't have a general idea of what microwaves are, you can search every aquarium in the world and not find any




What are you trying to get at here?

Are you trying to suggest that I'm not looking in the right manner or in the right places? Because if you are I am always open for suggestions.

But you've shot down looking within, and you sort of shot down looking without (and for the record by outside I didn't mean I stood in the middle of the street...I meant I looked at other people, prayed, looked at artwork, read related books, got Bar-Mitzvahed, studied history, celebrated holy days, etc.) and aside from within and without there's nada.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

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Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Evidence of soul and afterlife [Re: Veritas]
    #5793241 - 06/26/06 05:22 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

As there is no proof, and probably cannot be any proof, it is purely opinion and subjective interpretation of experience.

This topic comes up often. It's because some people claim to be able to do things that would certainly constitute evidence of 'something more' but somehow they can never actually do it. Astral projection, for example.

When these people are challenged to a fair and objective controlled test of their claim, they either refuse in a flurry of ad hominems, or participate and fail miserably, then follow up with a flurry of ad hominems.

I don't have a problem with people saying that they play golf with God when they astral project; that's entirely subjective and I have no comment on it. What I have a problem with is that these people claim they can bring back the golf ball, but when I ask to see it, they never seem to have it. :shrug:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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OfflineMicrocosmatrix
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Re: Evidence of soul and afterlife [Re: Diploid]
    #5793249 - 06/26/06 05:26 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

You can't bring back the golf ball. That's my whole point in a nutshell right there.


--------------------
:orly:


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Evidence of soul and afterlife [Re: Microcosmatrix]
    #5793257 - 06/26/06 05:29 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Then why do so many astral projectors (and myriad other 'mystics') say that they can?

Why can't any astral projector ever tell the researcher what page the book in the next room is open to, for example?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
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Re: Evidence of soul and afterlife [Re: dblaney]
    #5793274 - 06/26/06 05:35 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

What I'm getting at is that people like you conclude non-existence of something that they don't even have an idea what it is supose to be, what it was supose to be made of, and where is it supose to be.

I'm not saying believers have the right idea, because I too have no idea.

It's sort of like searching for "twins" in new york at the right location (before 9/11 of course), and when you get there you see no twins and you report back saying, I saw no two people looking alike in that square, therefore the information was false.
But the truth is you were sent to that location searching for something, and you didn't have idea what it is.

In order for one to conclude that there is no evidence of a soul where it should be had there really been such a thing, one would need to have a general idea what is this soul.
And how many general ideas have you hear in your life? Well I've heard none. I never heard one theory describind what soul could be.
All I hear is people talking about what it means to them, that or some comic-book energy field talk which really comes from pre-elementary school understanding of physics. And that is really neither provable or disprovable.

In order to expect a certain kind of evidence and know where to look for it, you need a solid model of what you are looking for.
First you need to know in which cathegory it belongs:
Is it a type of fish? If it is a fish, you can look in the sea
Is it a type of road transportation? If it is, you look on the streets
Is it a wave? If yes, you take an antenna and look for it
Is it an asteroid? If yes, you take a telescope and look for it

I hope you get my point. Cathegories determine expectations of evidence.

And so far nobody has came up with a cathegory in which the word "soul" would belong to, so nobody can really conclude wheather there is or is no evidence to support that aincient myth


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Invisibledblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: Evidence of soul and afterlife [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5793303 - 06/26/06 05:43 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

So for millenia people have been claiming that everyone has a soul, yet no one knows just what a 'soul' actually is or is not. Yet that hasn't stopped them from claiming that everyone has one and then using that as a means of control to determine everything from social rank, property ownership, wealth, marriage, morality, law, government, etc.

Do you ever get the feeling that maybe looking for a soul is like a wild goose chase, completely distracting you from experiencing the present moment?


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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InvisibleVeritas
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Posts: 11,089
Re: Evidence of soul and afterlife [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5793305 - 06/26/06 05:44 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
Quote:

Veritas said:
It is not required that skeptics prove that God/Heaven/the soul do not exist, as they are not the claimants.  The burden of proof lies with the claimants.  As there is no proof, and probably cannot be any proof, it is purely opinion and subjective interpretation of experience.

This is just fine, except that many religious believers take the stance that THEIR subjective opinion should dictate law and education, that it is acceptable for them to pass judgment (and even engage in hate crimes) on harmless lifestyle choices (pre-marital sex, gay marriage, agnosticism, feminism, etc.) and that everyone else is responsible for proving that their mythology is non-factual.  :thumbdown:

If we cannot PROVE either the non-existence nor the existence of a soul, God, Heaven, Hell, Jesus, etc... then it is all just "best guess."  It seems far simpler and more equitable to keep our beliefs in the subjective realm, seek to do no harm to others, and find a path which opens our hearts and minds to our life experiences.




you are still missing the point of this thread.
My questions was:

If you had a van full of wquipment where would you go to look for evidence?




The point is, there is nowhere to GO to look for evidence.  Insubstantial, untestable, unproveable concepts do not produce evidence.  In the absence of evidence, the most reasonable theory is that it DOES NOT exist, not that it DOES exist, but it must be taken on faith in order to be experienced.

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Evidence of soul and afterlife [Re: Diploid]
    #5793307 - 06/26/06 05:44 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
As there is no proof, and probably cannot be any proof, it is purely opinion and subjective interpretation of experience.

This topic comes up often. It's because some people claim to be able to do things that would certainly constitute evidence of 'something more' but somehow they can never actually do it. Astral projection, for example.

When these people are challenged to a fair and objective controlled test of their claim, they either refuse in a flurry of ad hominems, or participate and fail miserably, then follow up with a flurry of ad hominems.

I don't have a problem with people saying that they play golf with God when they astral project; that's entirely subjective and I have no comment on it. What I have a problem with is that these people claim they can bring back the golf ball, but when I ask to see it, they never seem to have it. :shrug:




This has to be the first thing resambling an answer to my original question so far..

I asked where would you look

Your answer is, you would look in abilities of people

thanks

What do I have to say to that?
What if the only effect of the soul is simply consciousness, and you are what you are..

Plus, even if you did find evidence of people moving objects and such things, those would not really be proof of existence of soul.
A biological being could use hidden properties of the universe to do such things without having any kind of soul or afterlife.

So not only is this not a necessary result of existence of soul, but it works the other way around too: Such effect would not even be hard proof of existence of soul because it could be explained in other ways.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Invisibledblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: Evidence of soul and afterlife [Re: Fospher]
    #5793322 - 06/26/06 05:48 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Fospher said:
There's no proof of the non-existance of an afterlife, however there is evidence of the contrary.




Please elaborate!


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
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Last seen: 17 years, 7 months
Re: Evidence of soul and afterlife [Re: Veritas]
    #5793342 - 06/26/06 05:51 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
Quote:

Veritas said:
It is not required that skeptics prove that God/Heaven/the soul do not exist, as they are not the claimants.  The burden of proof lies with the claimants.  As there is no proof, and probably cannot be any proof, it is purely opinion and subjective interpretation of experience.

This is just fine, except that many religious believers take the stance that THEIR subjective opinion should dictate law and education, that it is acceptable for them to pass judgment (and even engage in hate crimes) on harmless lifestyle choices (pre-marital sex, gay marriage, agnosticism, feminism, etc.) and that everyone else is responsible for proving that their mythology is non-factual.  :thumbdown:

If we cannot PROVE either the non-existence nor the existence of a soul, God, Heaven, Hell, Jesus, etc... then it is all just "best guess."  It seems far simpler and more equitable to keep our beliefs in the subjective realm, seek to do no harm to others, and find a path which opens our hearts and minds to our life experiences.




you are still missing the point of this thread.
My questions was:

If you had a van full of wquipment where would you go to look for evidence?




The point is, there is nowhere to GO to look for evidence.  Insubstantial, untestable, unproveable concepts do not produce evidence.  In the absence of evidence, the most reasonable theory is that it DOES NOT exist, not that it DOES exist, but it must be taken on faith in order to be experienced.




Why is the concept of soul untestable?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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InvisibleVeritas
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Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
Re: Evidence of soul and afterlife [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5793348 - 06/26/06 05:53 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Because tests would have to rely upon self-reporting of subjective data. The soul, i.e. the immortal essence of our lifeforce, cannot be scientifically verified.

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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Evidence of soul and afterlife [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5793354 - 06/26/06 05:56 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

What if the only effect of the soul is simply consciousness, and you are what you are..

Then all we can do is speculate and discuss for the fun of it.

Plus, even if you did find evidence of people moving objects and such things, those would not really be proof of existence of soul.

Well, I dunno about you, but if someone finally and definitively demonstrates something like astral projection, it would cause me to reconsider all my beliefs, including my current belief that there is probably nothing more and that the universe is probably nihilistic.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Last seen: 17 years, 7 months
Re: Evidence of soul and afterlife [Re: dblaney]
    #5793369 - 06/26/06 06:00 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

dblaney said:
So for millenia people have been claiming that everyone has a soul, yet no one knows just what a 'soul' actually is or is not. ment, etc.





That's my point. You can't expect evidence of something if you don't know what cathegory it belongs in.

What if someone claimed in 12th century that there are radio waves in the air, yet didn't say what they were.
People would look in the air, and see nothing, then they would smell it, and smell nothing. They would search the entire earth and ask the old and the wise if they remember seeing radio waves in the sky.
And then they would finally conclude, that this concept does not exist because it leaves no evidence

Was their logic correct?

No

Why?

Because they didn't know in which cathegory to put radio waves in.
That and they didn't have senses to detect them.

Do you ever ask yourself, how many thousands of different phenomena as unimaginable to use as radio waves were to them, exist in the universe?
Do non of them exist because there is no evidence of them to us?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Posts: 4,033
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Re: Evidence of soul and afterlife [Re: Diploid]
    #5793393 - 06/26/06 06:08 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
What if the only effect of the soul is simply consciousness, and you are what you are..

Then all we can do is speculate and discuss for the fun of it.






No, if a "soul" exists, it exists in reality, and reality is measurable. If soul did exist, it would have to exist within undiscovered properties of the universe.
It all depends on the level of technology used to detect things.

Look at my radio waves in 12th century analogy in the previous post.

Right now most people expect to see energy fields, film fogging and stuff like that as a result of "soul".
But if soul does exist (and leaves no such evidence), that's probably probably because such a method is like looking around and trying to see radio waves.

One can with almost 100% certainty say that there are things around us that are invisible to our senses and all our current technology,
because that's just how things go in science, there is always something new discovered which was not detectable before. New particles, new waves, new phenomena, all of which was invisible to us the previous day, and there is certainly more to come because we haven't mastered the whole universe.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

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Registered: 01/09/03
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Re: Evidence of soul and afterlife [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5793396 - 06/26/06 06:09 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Radio Waves.... Was their logic correct?

No


Still, in epistemology, the default condition is to not believe something exists until some evidence of it is found.

This is reasonable because without that mechanism, we would have to believe EVERYTHING exists just in case even though there is no evidence. We'd have to grant that a soul exists, and the FSM exists, and the Tooth Fairy exists, and Big Foot exists, and the Loch Ness Monster exists, and the Great Green Arkelseisure exists, and so on until you become dysfunctional.

Better to say none of those things appear to exist and live your life as if they don't, than to default to believing that they DO exist and clutter your mind with junk on the off chance that some of those unevidenced things are real.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Edited by Diploid (06/26/06 06:15 PM)

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Invisibledblaney
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Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: Evidence of soul and afterlife [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5793407 - 06/26/06 06:13 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

There was a man named Irving Copi who said:

Quote:

The argumentum ad ignorantiam [fallacy] is committed whenever it is argued that a proposition is true simply on the basis that it has not been proved false, or that it is false because it has not been proved true. He adds, A qualification should be made at this point. In some circumstances it can be safely assumed that if a certain event had occurred, evidence of it could be discovered by qualified investigators. In such circumstances it is perfectly reasonable to take the absence of proof of its occurrence despite searching, as positive evidence towards its non-occurrence.




I am of the opinion that there are or have been those who could be considered qualified 'investigators'. None have yet provided proof of its existence, so I think it is reasonable to take the absence of proof, despite searching, as positive evidence towards its non-existence.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Offlinecapliberty
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Re: Evidence of soul and afterlife [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5793408 - 06/26/06 06:14 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

To me a soul represents a holographic you, a distant spirit that is the real you, that resides in your physical body, if you separate the spirit from the body then the body should be dead for the spirit is the supposed giver of life to your body. Now that I've defined it, is it possible to look for,

I'd say only in your experience, I'd have to do more research on the nature of hallucinations with drugs, because the common accepted truth about hallucinations is that its a mental depiction from your brain projected into the world by the use of a medium. That hallucinations is totally interdependent to the brain, and not dependent on anything outside the brain,

although I have experienced sharp hallucinations in certain areas, but once moved they seized, as I moved back into the area they reoccur, giving me the notion that environment plays a part, this is important fact because it suggest that hallucinations are more than mental projections and have some dependent relationship to the environment

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Evidence of soul and afterlife [Re: Diploid]
    #5793427 - 06/26/06 06:21 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Was their logic correct?

No


Still, in epistemology, the default condition is to not believe something exists until some evidence of it is found.

This is reasonable because without that mechanism, we would have to believe EVERYTHING exists just in case even though there is no evidence. We'd have to grand that a soul exists, and the FSM exists, and the Tooth Fairy exists, and Big Foot exists, and the Loch Ness Monster exists, and the Great Green Arkelseisure exists, and so on until you become dysfunctional.

Better to say none of those things appear to exist and live your life as if they don't, than to default to believing that they DO exist and clutter your mind with junk on the off chance that some of those unevidenced things are real.




There is a difference between saying things do exist and not saying they don't exist.

The whole thing starts with myths, or testimonies or whatever, then a concept is created (so it's not the same as when you imagine things and go testing them, because you have a claim for this).
Then the concept can be kept on ice until it is clearly intentified and becomes testable.

The concept of soul and god has not yet been intentified and put in a proper cathegory so you can't test it

And if you can't test it the only thing you can do is say: I don't know wheather it exists or not.

So, what you can do with it in the mean time is discuss it for fun as you say, or make faith leaps and believe, or not believe.

Most people believe or do not believe by default, because it's hard not to have an opinion.
But what happens then is non-believers start thinking their choice is a logical one.
But both being a believer in something yet-untestable or being a disbeliever is the same thing, it's some kind of a unproven belief: it's an offset from the logical position of not having a belief about it

As we are not 100% logical beings it is natural to believe either in existence or non-existence of such an untested concept.
But non-believers must understand that they are making the same kind of faith leap as believers only in the oposite direction.
That's all I expect from people.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Evidence of soul and afterlife [Re: Microcosmatrix]
    #5793458 - 06/26/06 06:35 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

God didn't want his presence forced upon us

This may be, but I think that if God was anything other than a flaming asshole, He would at least verifiably show himself to EVERYONE who seeks Him with good intentions.

Me, for example.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Evidence of soul and afterlife [Re: Diploid]
    #5793482 - 06/26/06 06:47 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

But you are not willing to grovel dude.  :evil:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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