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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: If this Life was all there Is [Re: Schwammel]
    #5786875 - 06/24/06 03:54 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Schwammel said:
love your response...short and sweet but I don't agree with it,,,
especially the part abt moving on. you beleive things just vanish?

here today gone tomorrow?




A "thing" is a combination of elements, and as elements get rearanged all the time in the universe "things" dissapear


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: If this Life was all there Is [Re: Schwammel]
    #5786902 - 06/24/06 04:12 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I believe that the memories we store in our brain do not survive the death of the storage facility. My identity is invented and reinvented based upon my memory, therefore that identity will die with my body.


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OfflineTriplexiosis
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Re: If this Life was all there Is [Re: Veritas]
    #5786918 - 06/24/06 04:24 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I overheard (not sure if it's true or not, have no proof and don't have any links sorry) about some experiment with lab rats, where scientists taught rats how to go through a maze, then they would remove parts of their brains that supossedly contained these memories, the rats would still do the very same route, and the conclusion was something along the lines of "memories are not fixed on the brain alone"

My belief is that memories like everything else remain a part of existance/everything/oneness... in some form. Only the subjective self is no more after death, then we move to another (new) self all over again.


--------------------


"If there were no desire to heal, the damaged and broken met along this tedious path I've choosen here, I certainly would have walked away by now" Tool - Patient

"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye." Antoine de Saint-Exupery


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Offlinecapliberty
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Re: If this Life was all there Is [Re: Triplexiosis]
    #5786933 - 06/24/06 04:31 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

If your memory is totally erased and you identity is totally gone, you will seize to exist for all pratical purposes, and if you do exist you will not know it, so it matters not, for you don't have any memories or an identity to tie into your new existence, so I guess you literal belief in this thread


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: If this Life was all there Is [Re: Triplexiosis]
    #5786934 - 06/24/06 04:32 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Triplexiosis said:
I overheard (not sure if it's true or not, have no proof and don't have any links sorry) about some experiment with lab rats, where scientists taught rats how to go through a maze, then they would remove parts of their brains that supossedly contained these memories, the rats would still do the very same route, and the conclusion was something along the lines of "memories are not fixed on the brain alone"

My belief is that memories like everything else remain a part of existance/everything/oneness... in some form. Only the subjective self is no more after death, then we move to another (new) self all over again.




No that's not what they concluded, and it goes for humans too.
It's the idea of "holographic brain".
For example, a friend of mine got him by a piece of granade in the head, and he lost ability to talk and lost his memories and really he was all screwed up, but today he can talk, he is normal, his memories are back, and besides having this thing about repeating the word "well" a thousand times in conversations he is perfectly normal.

Some studies show that the information in the brain is stored in such a way that when you damage one system, if the damage is not total, another part of the brain can take its job, and even restore memories that were "stored" in the damaged part.

The friend still misses a part of his brain, but all his finctions were restored

The word holographic comes from the fact that holographic images contain the entire image information in every little part of the photograph, sort of like a fractal.
When you cut a holograph in two or four or ten pieces, you always get the same image from every piece


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: If this Life was all there Is [Re: Triplexiosis]
    #5786935 - 06/24/06 04:32 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

and the conclusion was something along the lines of "memories are not fixed on the brain alone"

Close, but not quite.

The conclusion was that memories are not stored in any specific section of the brain. They are stored in the brain, but they are stored in a hologram-like fasion (if you cut a hologram in half, you don't get two halves of the picture...you get two FULL copies of the hologram, each 1/2 the original size).

So cutting specific portions of brain tissue out may not remove a specific memory, it will just dull it down a little.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: If this Life was all there Is [Re: Triplexiosis]
    #5786938 - 06/24/06 04:33 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Or the rats' task-related memories are stored in unidentified/multiple locations in their brains. As long as they still had a functioning brain, however it has been pruned, they still have a storage facility for memories.  :grin:

It seems unlikely that memories have some existence outside of our brain.  Head injuries can cause a complete loss of self-identification (amnesia), even when the person retains the ability to perform tasks.  This points to the self as an erasable memory.  How is this different from your belief that the subjective self dies along with the body?


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OfflineTriplexiosis
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Re: If this Life was all there Is [Re: Veritas]
    #5786961 - 06/24/06 04:41 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

@Trendal and OWS, thanx for pointing that out :thumbup:

Quote:

Or the rats' task-related memories are stored in unidentified/multiple locations in their brains. As long as they still had a functioning brain, however it has been pruned, they still have a storage facility for memories.



most likely :grin:

Anyway, I believe memories are stored outside not within. Within we have a "whatever" that gives us acess to these memories. In amnesia this "whatever" thing might just not be functioning properlly.
However this is just a belief, nothing more, nothing less, so take it as such.


--------------------


"If there were no desire to heal, the damaged and broken met along this tedious path I've choosen here, I certainly would have walked away by now" Tool - Patient

"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye." Antoine de Saint-Exupery


Edited by Triplexiosis (06/24/06 04:42 PM)


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: If this Life was all there Is [Re: Triplexiosis]
    #5786966 - 06/24/06 04:43 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Are you referring to a collective consciousness? I'm not asking you for proof of your opinion, just curious as to what you mean.


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OfflineTriplexiosis
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Re: If this Life was all there Is [Re: Veritas]
    #5786970 - 06/24/06 04:44 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Yup, that would be it.


--------------------


"If there were no desire to heal, the damaged and broken met along this tedious path I've choosen here, I certainly would have walked away by now" Tool - Patient

"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye." Antoine de Saint-Exupery


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: If this Life was all there Is [Re: Triplexiosis]
    #5786974 - 06/24/06 04:47 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

So why does that resonate with you more than the idea of a physical, individual memory center?


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Offlinecapliberty
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Re: If this Life was all there Is [Re: Veritas]
    #5786979 - 06/24/06 04:49 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

memorys are more than in your brain, think about DeJa Vu


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OfflineTriplexiosis
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Re: If this Life was all there Is [Re: Veritas]
    #5786988 - 06/24/06 04:54 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

It would explain telepathy more accurately imho (not claiming to be telepathic mind you). The simple event when two people think of the same thing for no apparent reason, would imo be connecting to the same external ideas simultaneously.
Plus I believe we are all one, this one you could refer to as God, Tao, Nature, whatever you want to call it. In this "one" all thoughts formed remain (like an endless library) and can be acessed at any time if we knew how.

If that makes any sense what-so-ever.


--------------------


"If there were no desire to heal, the damaged and broken met along this tedious path I've choosen here, I certainly would have walked away by now" Tool - Patient

"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye." Antoine de Saint-Exupery


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: If this Life was all there Is [Re: capliberty]
    #5786989 - 06/24/06 04:54 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

So, what, deja vu means that some mystical cloud form stores your memory, then?

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: If this Life was all there Is [Re: Triplexiosis]
    #5786996 - 06/24/06 04:57 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Triplexiosis said:
It would explain telepathy more accurately imho (not claiming to be telepathic mind you). The simple event when two people think of the same  thing for no apparent reason, would imo be connecting to the same external ideas simultaneously.




How can you discern which explanation is more "accurate" for something that has no substantiation? Whichever explanation sounds better to you?

"For no apparent reason" does not mean that one uses one's imagination to make up a reason. :wink:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: If this Life was all there Is [Re: capliberty]
    #5787003 - 06/24/06 05:01 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

A clinical correlation has been found between the experience of déjà vu and disorders such as schizophrenia and anxiety, and the likelihood of the experience increases considerably with subjects having these conditions.

However, the strongest pathological association of déjà vu is with temporal lobe epilepsy. This correlation has led some researchers to speculate that the experience of déjà vu is possibly a neurological anomaly related to improper electrical discharge in the brain.

As most people suffer a mild (i.e. non-pathological) epileptic episode regularly (e.g. the sudden "jolt", a hypnagogic jerk, that frequently occurs just prior to falling asleep), it is conjectured that a similar (mild) neurological aberration occurs in the experience of déjà vu, resulting in an erroneous sensation of memory.




Deja vu is not a strong argument for memory being centered outside of our brain, nor for the idea of a collective consciousness.


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OfflineTriplexiosis
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Re: If this Life was all there Is [Re: Triplexiosis]
    #5787007 - 06/24/06 05:02 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

How can you discern which explanation is more "accurate" for something that has no substantiation? Whichever explanation sounds better to you?



aren't beliefs exactly "what sounds better to you"? I'm not excluding posibilities, just entertaining some ideas more than others.

Quote:

"For no apparent reason" does not mean that one uses one's imagination to make up a reason.



I agree, yet however imagination creates ideas, which are then put under tests to prove/disprove their validity. A computer was first imagined before created.


--------------------


"If there were no desire to heal, the damaged and broken met along this tedious path I've choosen here, I certainly would have walked away by now" Tool - Patient

"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye." Antoine de Saint-Exupery


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: If this Life was all there Is [Re: trendal]
    #5787046 - 06/24/06 05:21 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

trendal said:
and the conclusion was something along the lines of "memories are not fixed on the brain alone"

Close, but not quite.

The conclusion was that memories are not stored in any specific section of the brain. They are stored in the brain, but they are stored in a hologram-like fasion (if you cut a hologram in half, you don't get two halves of the picture...you get two FULL copies of the hologram, each 1/2 the original size).

So cutting specific portions of brain tissue out may not remove a specific memory, it will just dull it down a little.




yea that's what I said too


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: If this Life was all there Is [Re: Triplexiosis]
    #5787052 - 06/24/06 05:24 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Triplexiosis said:
aren't beliefs exactly "what sounds better to you"? I'm not excluding posibilities, just entertaining some ideas more than others.




Beliefs are acceptance of a notion as being true, that the idea represents reality. You stated that such a notion explains the mechanics of a certain phenomenon "more accurately" than other explanations.

The difference between "enertaining an idea" and believing it to be true, and a more accurate reasoning for the nature of a specific phenomenon is quite distinct.

Now, how exactly is collective consciousness more plausible, more accurate of an explanation for "telepathy" than other explanations? I think that because the phenomenon in question is telepathy, which certainly isn't validated in any consensual matter, and not, say, the operation of a locomotive, it is wide open for someone to imagine something that they wish were true and declare "this is a more accurate belief". :what:

Quote:


I agree, yet however imagination creates ideas, which are then put under tests to prove/disprove their validity. A computer was first imagined before created.




So, then, what tests have been run to offer any inkling of basis to propose that your conviction of reality (unless you truly did not mean to use the word belief?) is more accurate than others?

Also, a computer didn't simply spring forth from pure imagination. A computer was developed over time from previous understandings and observations of reality. Someone didn't just express a similar thought that another had within the same time frame, in the same environment, with similar perspectives, and go "oh, it must be collective consciousness". :wink:

Rather, that is exactly what happened, whereas the invention of a computer was more along the lines of utilizing one's previous, confirmed understanding of reality and looking further for new ways to apply that understanding, which, in turn, lead to the formation and discovery of new understanding. Imagination may motivate but it does not materialize. :grin:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: If this Life was all there Is [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5787065 - 06/24/06 05:31 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

By the way, couldn't deja vu be simply people having ideas that they experienced something before even if they haven't.
I mean sometimes the brain does have glitches.

Where would we end up if we took every little strange experience as a proof of something?
Psychosis, drug hallucinations, false memories...

What I find it very funny when someone says: I know -insert a mythical creature or whatever- exist, I've seen them during the influence of -insert a highly hallucinogenic drug of choice-

My friend saw Simpsons family walking on railroad tracks once.
There is little doubt that those were not real Simpsons. Other than the fact that they are 2D catroon characters, they probably never heard of Croatia, so it's unlikely that they would be taking a walk there.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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