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Offlineagoutihead
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what exactly is a PHENETHYLAMINE???????
    #5781590 - 06/22/06 07:23 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

alright i stopped about half way through terrence mckennas book "foods of the gods" because it was just kind of boring me.

i dont know if i like his writing style.

so i decided to start reading PIHKAL.... GREAT book!

im only on like chapeter 7 or something.... but already a really great read.

granted i cant understand a word of his chemistry talk... i at least want to know what the basis for the book is about.... PHENETHYLAMINES

what exactly are PHENETHYLAMINES?

can you give me some examples of certain drugs that are PHENETHYLAMINES?

and can you break it down how i pronounce it?

thanks guys!


--------------------
"When I'm on LSD and hearing something that's pure rhythm, it takes me to another world and into anther brain state where I've stopped thinking and started knowing" - Kevin Herbert

"Psychedelics let you see the world through a child's eye."

"Experience the liquid realm..."

"The evolution of mankind is in the alteration of consciousness" - Dr. Albert Hofmann


Edited by agoutihead (06/22/06 07:24 PM)


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InvisibleTrippinTeddy
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Re: what exactly is a PHENETHYLAMINE??????? [Re: agoutihead]
    #5781610 - 06/22/06 07:28 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

This should probably be moved to another section of the forums


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ToiletDuk said:
For the record, I would show you my butthole but you would fall down and worship it as a God and you would give up everything to roam the land converting the heathens by fire and sword. Millions would die. No, no the cost is too great. I cannot.



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Offlineagoutihead
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Re: what exactly is a PHENETHYLAMINE??????? [Re: TrippinTeddy]
    #5781620 - 06/22/06 07:30 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

why? this is the only board i really visit. its fine here i think.


--------------------
"When I'm on LSD and hearing something that's pure rhythm, it takes me to another world and into anther brain state where I've stopped thinking and started knowing" - Kevin Herbert

"Psychedelics let you see the world through a child's eye."

"Experience the liquid realm..."

"The evolution of mankind is in the alteration of consciousness" - Dr. Albert Hofmann


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: what exactly is a PHENETHYLAMINE??????? [Re: agoutihead]
    #5781803 - 06/22/06 08:15 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Your body needs all sorts of vitamins and minerals. These are the micronutrients.

Then there are the macronutrients, of which we need a lot. These are Carbohydrates, Fats, Water and Oxygen, which are our fuel system, and PROTEIN.

Protein is the stuff animal bodies are mostly made of (I dont count water) just like plants are mostly made of carbohydrates.

We need protein to build our body's tissues, and to do much of its chemistry.

Protein consists of amino acids, chemicals which consist of a "tail" ("R" which can be anything) attached to an organic acid with an ammonia-like group adjacent to it.

R-CH(NH2)-COOH

this is an amino acid, and heres how it works with protein:

NH2-CH(R)-CO-NH-CH(R)-CO-NH-CH(R)-COOH

which forms water as a byproduct like so:

R-NH2 + HO-OC-R --> R-NH-OC-R + H-O-H

Now then! Your stomach turns the protein you eat into amino acids, and these get taken into the bloodstream and reassembled in the code your body needs.

Your brain does something else (simplified) which is splitting off Carbon dioxide from some amino acids.

R-CH(NH2)-COOH --> R-CH2-NH2

With the acid gone you are left with an amine, the shape and function of which is determined by the "tail".

This is where it gets good!

Two of these amino acids are Tryptophan and Phenylalanine. If your brain takes the CO2 out you are left with TRYPTAMINE and PHENETHYLAMINE.

In tinkering further it lightly oxidizes these to form the brain hormones (neurotransmitters) Serotonine (from Tryptamine) and Dopamine (from Phenethylamine).

These two form a balance in your brain, which makes your mind work.

If you specifically interfere with these two, you will get a psychedelic state. To do this you can use substances that are similar to serotonin (like DMT or mushrooms) or those that are similar in appearance to dopamine (like mescaline and 2CB)

Because they are built on the same templates as the neurotransmitters, they are named after those templates, being Tryptamines and Phenethylamines.

This is how it works.


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Offlineb1tH
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Re: what exactly is a PHENETHYLAMINE??????? [Re: Asante]
    #5781864 - 06/22/06 08:35 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

That was a nice explanation there! :smile: So as I understand it Serotonin and Dopamine are both chemicals which produce "reward" feelings in the body?  However, they are different feelings I think?  If somebody could maybe expand on Serotonin and Dopamine that would be cool.  I'll look it up in a second but if anyone wants to answer I'd appreciate it. :smile:  Thanks!


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...But nothing is lost.


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Offlinetoday mylove
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Re: what exactly is a PHENETHYLAMINE??????? [Re: b1tH]
    #5781905 - 06/22/06 08:51 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Wiccan , you're awesome.


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Offlinebutane
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Re: what exactly is a PHENETHYLAMINE??????? [Re: today mylove]
    #5781954 - 06/22/06 09:11 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Phenethylamine = ethylamine (ethyl = 2 carbons, amine = nitrogen) + phenyl group (phenyl = ring of 6 carbons with another sticking out the side)

Phenethylamines are drugs that are based on the phenethylamine structure with other stuff on it too. 2C-I for instance is 2,5-dimethoxy 4-iodo phenethylamine, meaning on the 2 and 5 positions there are methoxy groups (methoxy = meth [1 carbon] + oxygen) and an iodine on the 4 position. Amphetamine is an acronym for Alpha Methyl PHenEThylAMINE, or a phenethylamine with a methyl (one carbon) on the alpha position. Mescaline, cathinone, extacy, meth, sudaphed (pseudoephedrine) are all phenethylamines. Wikipedia has a ton of great info if you're interested in learning more.


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"...but by and large it was a simple intoxication with most things seeming quite hilarious. The intoxication was also quite extreme."


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Offlineagoutihead
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Re: what exactly is a PHENETHYLAMINE??????? [Re: butane]
    #5782029 - 06/22/06 09:36 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

man that is some shit! kinda hard to understand.... but i guess ill learn the full understanding over time.


--------------------
"When I'm on LSD and hearing something that's pure rhythm, it takes me to another world and into anther brain state where I've stopped thinking and started knowing" - Kevin Herbert

"Psychedelics let you see the world through a child's eye."

"Experience the liquid realm..."

"The evolution of mankind is in the alteration of consciousness" - Dr. Albert Hofmann


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InvisibleMasFina
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Re: what exactly is a PHENETHYLAMINE??????? [Re: agoutihead]
    #5782913 - 06/23/06 03:16 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I am reading food of the gods also and also finding it to be quite boring. Only on page 60 I think. The later chapters look better though. Sorry for changing the subject


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OfflinePsychdlcMes3
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Re: what exactly is a PHENETHYLAMINE??????? [Re: MasFina]
    #5785281 - 06/23/06 10:15 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

basicly a phychedelic amphetamin... like mda,mdma.mde


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Offlineagoutihead
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Re: what exactly is a PHENETHYLAMINE??????? [Re: PsychdlcMes3]
    #5785802 - 06/24/06 01:37 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

i dont know what page exactly im on in foods of the gods... but im about half way. it really bored me compared to all my other books.

still cant put pihkal down.

so in a barney breakdown type of way.... they are are speedy psychedelics?

does that describe them kinda?


--------------------
"When I'm on LSD and hearing something that's pure rhythm, it takes me to another world and into anther brain state where I've stopped thinking and started knowing" - Kevin Herbert

"Psychedelics let you see the world through a child's eye."

"Experience the liquid realm..."

"The evolution of mankind is in the alteration of consciousness" - Dr. Albert Hofmann


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Offlineagoutihead
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Re: what exactly is a PHENETHYLAMINE??????? [Re: agoutihead]
    #5785810 - 06/24/06 01:40 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

also i just got the part in his book about the 4-position... which i am just starting to understand.

my question is... HOW do chemist change the structure of a molecule...

i.e. how to you just re-arrange the oxygen or nitrogen atoms of a molecule to change it to a new chemical?

also can someone give me a link to a picture (or draw one for me) of a single hexagon atom with the points given their basic "numbering position"

am i making sense?


--------------------
"When I'm on LSD and hearing something that's pure rhythm, it takes me to another world and into anther brain state where I've stopped thinking and started knowing" - Kevin Herbert

"Psychedelics let you see the world through a child's eye."

"Experience the liquid realm..."

"The evolution of mankind is in the alteration of consciousness" - Dr. Albert Hofmann


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InvisibleEntropymancer
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Re: what exactly is a PHENETHYLAMINE??????? [Re: agoutihead]
    #5786680 - 06/24/06 02:01 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

The numbering pattern isn't precisely static, and you can often draw the same molecule in different orientations, which often throws off laypeople trying to wrap their mind around chemistry. For example


Other ring systems may be numbered differently (for example, quinolines and isoquinolines are named from the nitrogen (ignoring the two carbons at which the rings are adjoined, because we use standard chemical numbering instead of biochemical numbering... the difference being that biologists number every carbons, while chemists only number those carbons at which they can put substituents on)

As to how chemists make these things, it isn't really rearranging as much as putting pieces together. They work up from smaller parts, adding one functional group at a time. One of the most common routes used in PiHKAL is making the appropriately substituted benzaldehyde (a phenyl ring with a COH group instead of the ethylamine), reacting with nitroethane to form the nitrostyrene, then reducing this to the phenethylamine with Lithium Aluminum Hydride (LAH). I wish I had the energy to make pictures to show each of those structures, but unfortunately, I don't.


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OfflineWeebl8bob
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Re: what exactly is a PHENETHYLAMINE??????? [Re: agoutihead]
    #5786771 - 06/24/06 02:41 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

agoutihead said:
so in a barney breakdown type of way.... they are are speedy psychedelics?




Don't know if you have or have not done mescaline (which is a PEA).. but it isnt "speedy" in the least so your "breakdown" is incorrect :tongue:


--------------------
"You can turn your back on a person, but never turn your back on a drug, especially when its waving a razor sharp hunting knife in your eye." - Hunter S. Thompson


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InvisibleEntropymancer
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Re: what exactly is a PHENETHYLAMINE??????? [Re: Weebl8bob]
    #5786962 - 06/24/06 04:41 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Weebl8bob said:
Quote:

agoutihead said:
so in a barney breakdown type of way.... they are are speedy psychedelics?




Don't know if you have or have not done mescaline (which is a PEA).. but it isnt "speedy" in the least so your "breakdown" is incorrect :tongue:




Only sort of.  Phenethylamines are not necessarily particularly speedy, but their alpha-methylated counterparts (the amphetamines, which usually have a greater potency than their PEA counterpart) are especially known for their speediness.

On the other hand, the come-up of LSD (a complexly substituted indole derivitive) is very speedy, so speedy vs non-speedy is probably not the best way to classify psychedlics.

But don't go for the dumbed down information, learn all you can about it! It's fascinating stuff.


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Offlineagoutihead
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Re: what exactly is a PHENETHYLAMINE??????? [Re: Entropymancer]
    #5787233 - 06/24/06 06:39 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

yeah it is really fascinating... but really hard for me to understand.

i guess you cant learn everything in a night.

thanks guys!

im still not sure just "how" chemists are able to actually manipulate molecules....

i mean is it like taking a pair of tweezers and moving the atoms... (obviously i understand thats not possible) but HOW do they actually move atoms?


--------------------
"When I'm on LSD and hearing something that's pure rhythm, it takes me to another world and into anther brain state where I've stopped thinking and started knowing" - Kevin Herbert

"Psychedelics let you see the world through a child's eye."

"Experience the liquid realm..."

"The evolution of mankind is in the alteration of consciousness" - Dr. Albert Hofmann


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OfflineExplosiveMango
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Re: what exactly is a PHENETHYLAMINE??????? [Re: agoutihead]
    #5787245 - 06/24/06 06:46 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

It's more like figuring out which molecules are sensitive to what type of other molecules joining them in which places... and throwing a bunch of each type of molecule in a container and letting them run into each other.

Sometimes you would put a different shaped molecule/atom into the container too, to help 'bump the other molecules into each other' but not to attatch itself.

(called a catalyst)


--------------------
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Know your substance.
Know your source.

The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.


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OfflineWilf
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Re: what exactly is a PHENETHYLAMINE??????? [Re: agoutihead]
    #5787416 - 06/24/06 07:55 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

agoutihead:

"my question is... HOW do chemist change the structure of a molecule..."

"im still not sure just "how" chemists are able to actually manipulate molecules...."

The "How" question is a good one. I'm a chemist, changing the structure of a molecule is something I do nearly every day, but explaining HOW I do it is very difficult in practical terms.

I think the most important thing to stress is that the type of diagram that entropymancer pasted to explain a numbering system is simply the chemists way of describing chemicals. The chemist will describe a chemical/compound in terms of its arrangement and the number of carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen, boron, fluorine, iodine etc atoms. But what is an atom?

A chemist may tell you that an atom is a collection of protons, electrons, and neutrons, But what are protons, electrons, and neutrons?

We are beginning to head into the world of physics. The questions can continue. Chemists work on the assumptions of atoms to describe chemicals and are able to manipulate them.

I like the sentance that explosive mango gave:

"It's more like figuring out which molecules are sensitive to what type of other molecules joining them in which places... and throwing a bunch of each type of molecule in a container and letting them run into each other."

Chemists take advantage of the electronics of various chemicals to create new chemicals. But electronics can be a very hazy subject in this context. Chemistry simplifys it and trys to make use of the simplification.

As it's late and I'm tired I don't know if that made any sense agoutihead. As for the practicalities of how chemists "make" new compounds maybe I could try to explain when I'm a little more awake!


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OfflineIamthewalrus
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Re: what exactly is a PHENETHYLAMINE??????? [Re: Wilf]
    #5787496 - 06/24/06 08:19 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

good post wilf


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Offlineastraalialma
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Re: what exactly is a PHENETHYLAMINE??????? [Re: Iamthewalrus]
    #5788431 - 06/25/06 02:00 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Hmm..
If you put enough components(chemicals and two different catalysts) into a mixture, could it be possible to create a loop of reactions so that on of the two catalysts create this one molecule and the other catalyst breaks it down?


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Invisibleindica
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Re: what exactly is a PHENETHYLAMINE??????? [Re: astraalialma]
    #5788544 - 06/25/06 03:25 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

phenethylamines - the feeling fits the word perfectly


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OfflineYayitsme
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Re: what exactly is a PHENETHYLAMINE??????? [Re: indica]
    #5791198 - 06/26/06 12:37 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Fantastic thread!!


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He aint got a cent, supposed to go to management but he spent it getting bent.


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