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Offlinehoopershroomer
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Registered: 03/30/06
Posts: 1,704
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Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god)
    #5781255 - 06/22/06 05:58 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

so a few days ago i was listening to this rap cd, by an artist name, mishon control(he works with talib kweli if that helps). ne way at the end of this track i was listening to, randomly this sound of a woman came on and she was talking about philosophical things, about life, and the fact there is a god. it was a little hard to decipher at first but after i listened to it a few times, the concept of what the woman was saying absolutely blew my mind. and this is what she said:

"look at the sun, look at the moon. look at the formulation of the light of the day. look at the stars...the way they are...placed in the sky so we(humans) can guide ourselves across the earth. look at the ships we sailed across the ocean for the benefit of mankind...and the waves that blow them. look at the clouds that bring the rain...and the crops that grow, and the food you eat....and look within yoursleves, and the farthest horizons. all of these things are signs which are clear for those who are wise, for those who contemplate, for those who have the ability to understand. In other words, the creator is pointing to his creation as the proof of the reality of his existence and his power and his knowledge."


once i heard this....i was speechless for a few minutes and all i could do was contemplate about life and the fact that there is a god. i started looking at everything around me and started realizing there was no way that everything around me (whether it was my bed, my stereo my wallet, my mirror, all my clothes) was pure chance. i realized none of this could be just luck and there really is a creator, a god, a powerful entity, or w/e it is. wow, life is just absolutely astoundingly amazing, possibilities are endless....

new ay any comments/ questions would be appreciated?
whats your take on the fact of a creator of this all?


--------------------
"Life lived in the absence of the psychedelic experience that primordial shamanism is based on is life trivialized, life denied, life enslaved to the ego."

"You teach the world how to treat you, by showing the world how you treat yourself."

A well developed sense of humor is far superior to any religion"

"Everything you could want and could be, you already have and are."

:peace: & :heart:

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Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: hoopershroomer]
    #5781324 - 06/22/06 06:17 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Reality creates reality through the process of being reality. I know not of this "god" that you refer to.

Unless, you are referring to cause and effect? A mesh network of facets that exist in a state of constant interaction with all other facets of reality?

The concept of a "creator" is one that results from our natural tendency to impose our humanity onto the reality in which we exist. There, quite honestly, is not an identity that is responsible for this. Obviously, there are actions being carried out that are entirely far beyond our comprehension, on scales and levels unfathomable. Our fault is to attribute the phenomenon of reality to an identity that resembles our own, and, in light of the nature of reality, it is entirely senseless.

Reality is reality. "Reality" is all-encompassing, and simply represents the entirety of this phenomenon of existance without implying any human conception that is brazenly limited and without an encompassing perspective.

To assume more... is to not reflect reality... which, quite frankly, is not beneficial to our ability to navigate reality, to further propagate reality, as an aspect of reality...

Bring awareness within oneself and observe. Initiate change, interact with reality, as one directly perceives and observes, and build more understanding of reality. Repeat. :mushroom2:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
waiting
Male

Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 5 months
Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: hoopershroomer]
    #5781372 - 06/22/06 06:31 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

man have you picked a wrong place to share this, nice post though


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5781379 - 06/22/06 06:33 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
man have you picked a wrong place to share this




Completely unnecessary, detrimental sentiment, in my opinion. :nonono:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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OfflineBasilides
Servent ofWisdom
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Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 7,059
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Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5781424 - 06/22/06 06:47 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
:blah: :blah: :blah: :mushroom2:
:blah: :blah: :blah:  :rolleyes:
:blah: Reality is Reality :blah: :blah:
:blah: :blah: :blah: :smile:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:




--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5781434 - 06/22/06 06:50 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
man have you picked a wrong place to share this




Completely unnecessary, detrimental sentiment, in my opinion. :nonono:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:




Thank you for enriching my knowledge database with information about your opinion

plus I've learned a new word today: detrimental


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Offlinecapliberty
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5781542 - 06/22/06 07:12 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Obviously, there are actions being carried out that are entirely far beyond our comprehension, on scales and levels unfathomable




Quote:

To assume more... is to not reflect reality... which, quite frankly, is not beneficial to our ability to navigate reality, to further propagate reality, as an aspect of reality...




If there are actions being carried beyond our comprehension, to know of their existence is assuming, besides assumptions can be used theoretically such as in science and then verified by proof, in which science is a tool to navigate our reality, and if there are actions beyond our capacity and comprehension, is not right to assume, if there are actions beyond our capacity, it doesn't mean it doesn't exit if you can't prove it, you just don't know how, and is it wrong to entertain such an idea, in certain cases but not philosophically

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OfflinePanoramix
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Registered: 11/26/03
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5781642 - 06/22/06 07:33 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

...Wow, she really knows what she's talking about, to quote the Beastie Boys. There's a flipside to the coin, however, and it's a bit naive to ignore it. Navigation by stars seems like it's been pretty swell, but slaves kidnapped from their homes and sent across the world for menial labour and the like might have disagreed in their time, not to mention the indigenious populations that violent and ambitious ocean-faring cultures have destroyed. And to assume the stars are in the sky for us to navigate by seems a bit human-centric to me. And since when do waves blow boats? But yeah, to see God in all things is about as clear a view of God as one could hope to achieve, in my opinion. To start labeling God a Creator is, I would say, a misstep. You're now assuming an absolute non-existance that was(avoiding using the word 'existed' there) prior to our reality. To do this seperates God from the rest of existance, 'cause if he Created, he must have existed prior to Creation. If he is external to and greater than Creation, then reality can and has not been.

But yes, reality, the very intricacy of it and the manner in which it fits so clockworkishly together are quite a marvel. I wouldn't consider them evidence of higher power or intelligent design necessarily though. I mean, when you think about it, how could it be any other way? As Fireworks_God pointed out, reality propagates reality, otherwise it would never have been and could never be. Yeah, actually, as I read it over I realize the redundency of my own post, as Fireworks has laid things out pretty spot on, as is generally the case. Watch me post it anyway. Though I think you may have meant "Rinse and repeat" at the end there, man... But yeah, the emphasis you place on the initiating change and the percieving nicely encaptulates the receptive AND creative dualism that is necessary to reflect reality and thus be part of it's flow.

In terms of divine hip-hop lyrics, I don't have liner don't so this is just my best decipherment but how about
"Oh yeah, I seen him before/ playing with rings and C-4/ he looks into the future and sees war/ his name was Seymour/ a man of all faiths/ he read holy books while he drank gin and smoked ace/ Buddhist, Hindu, Jewish, Christian, Morman/ Then one morning/ He opened up his eyes and read the Koran/ He said 'The Holy Wars are just a warning/ so he sat down, closed his eyes/ looked within and started truly exploring/ He found God in all living things/ Then envisioned kings dead/ scepters broken, crowns crumbling/ finally he talks after years of mumbling/ finally he walks after years of stumbling/ he's headed for the city limits/ to purge himself of the metropolis and everything that is within it/ threw his hands to the sky and promised to die/ when his time came/ a single vibe that re-enforced his mindframe/ he said I absolve myself of every religion and faith/ and take no pride or stake in any country or state/ looked around and found out not many could relate/ so he put words on wax and used beats as bait/ and look at how he caught'cha/ carressed and chopped'cha/ re-arranged your mind/ now your vision's blind/ go forth and speak it from the soul, it's time/ my powers are manifest.


--------------------
Don't worry, I'm wrong.

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Offlinecapliberty
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: Panoramix]
    #5781718 - 06/22/06 07:51 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

i can't bye the argument that reality propagating reality as an adequate explanation for creation, this statement here is a mere assumption and based on human conception that doesn't encompass the whole.

All of sudden earth made dinosaurs extinct and human into existence all on its own propagation, OK you had a ice age, whipped out the dinosaurs, then monkeys already existed, but some how they evolved into cave men, and if it wasn't monkeys then where did we evolve from, but you look at monkeys where is the transition species with the higher levels of intelligence, can you attempt to explain the evolution process a little better, how did monkey intelligence become human intelligence, how did the monkeys loose its hair and turn colors, and why was it just the monkeys, us suddenly appearing is not an adequate explanation of reality propagating itself,

Edited by capliberty (06/22/06 07:59 PM)

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: Basilides]
    #5781951 - 06/22/06 09:10 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Basilides said:
Quote:

fireworks_god said:
:blah: :blah: :blah: :mushroom2:
:blah: :blah: :blah:  :rolleyes:
:blah: Reality is Reality :blah: :blah:
:blah: :blah: :blah: :smile:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:







You've got to be kidding. His posts have ten times the content of yours. :tongue:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflinePanoramix
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: capliberty]
    #5782028 - 06/22/06 09:36 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Reality propagating reality isn't trying to be an adequate explanation for creation, just for existance.  There is a very real difference there.

As for explaining evolution more clearly to you, I'll try but I forget the exact line of things for humans.  First off, I'd lose the 'All of a sudden', because nothing happens all of a sudden, it just seems that way if your scope isn't broad enough.  There was a cataclysmic event that killed off most of the various varieties of species that existed prior to that event, let's call those critters that didn't make it dinosaurs for the sake of simplicity.  Monkeys didn't exist as such then, but the conditions of the time, most notably the climatic instability, allowed for mammals to prosper.  They filled the niches their cold-blooded cousins had so recently been forced to vacate.  Some got into trees in a big way.  They got well-suited to doing that, all prehensile with the tails and whatnot, let's for the sake of simplicity call these organisms monkeys.  Now, some of them decided they were big enough to inhabit the ground more permanently.  Some of the primarily ground-dwelling monkeys were spending a lot of their time upright, and did other things with their forelimbs.  The more they manipulated things, the more neural connections for manipulating things they grew.  They starting feeling awfully clever due to the obvious lifestyle advantages this gave them and decided they were different and distinct from every other animal, that their intelligence was higher and better and more important.  When did 'monkey intelligence' become 'human intelligence'?  Never.  You ARE a monkey, m'boy, and the most profound lines of thinking you can concieve of are the ones that are shared by the greatest number of warm-blooded animals.  Elephants mourn their dead, whales masturbate for the sake of making themselves feel good, tricking their bodies into triggering their sexual responses when there is no opportunity to reproduce and your dog loves you.

Evolution is the gradual change of the genetic information of a species in ways that allow them to still be fertile and produce fertile young.  It has a variety of causes, from mutation to only the most well-suited organisms living to an age where they can reproduce.  When it comes to us humans and our variety of hair colours, there's no reason to think that wasn't something that existed in the species already, but the fact that people spread across the world and stopped being a single interbreeding population helped with making us different in terms of pigmentation.  As for the hair loss, all it takes is for there to be more babies with less hair doing well.  I'd guess we didn't much need to be hairy to survive any more because we'd taking to wearing to skins of other animals, and the less hair we had, we easier we could groom ourselves.  That means fewer deaths due to tick-borne blood parasites and the like.  All of a sudden, hair was a liability rather than an asset. 

But in any practical sense, people have always been people, cats have always been cats, monkeys have always been monkeys and so on, because evolution happens SO GRADUALLY that it hardly matters to anyone except as a way of understanding the shape of the things that have been, that are and that are to come.  It doesn't go from worse to better, it's just a matter of what chemical processes are most likely to propagate themselves.  Looking over this, I realize I said all of a sudden after saying there was no such thing.  Hair wasn't all of a sudden a total liability or else no one would have hair.  Notice we've for the most part kept the hair on top of our heads, the area from which we lose the most body heat and where it's hardest to wear crude fur clothing without it getting in the way of our sensory intake organs.  For my money, we'll keep the eyebrow, eyelash and nose hair to the end and nose hair will be the very last go, if it goes at all.  They're the most useful hair in terms of preventing disease and injury.  But I'm speculating and not a geneticist in any case.  There will proabably be a better explanation up already by the time I get this posted... :smirk:


--------------------
Don't worry, I'm wrong.

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Invisibledblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: capliberty]
    #5782192 - 06/22/06 10:23 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

capliberty said:
i can't bye the argument that reality propagating reality as an adequate explanation for creation, this statement here is a mere assumption and based on human conception that doesn't encompass the whole.

All of sudden earth made dinosaurs extinct and human into existence all on its own propagation, OK you had a ice age, whipped out the dinosaurs, then monkeys already existed, but some how they evolved into cave men, and if it wasn't monkeys then where did we evolve from, but you look at monkeys where is the transition species with the higher levels of intelligence, can you attempt to explain the evolution process a little better, how did monkey intelligence become human intelligence, how did the monkeys loose its hair and turn colors, and why was it just the monkeys, us suddenly appearing is not an adequate explanation of reality propagating itself,




Basically you are expressing amazement that reality is the way it is. I agree, it is a truly marvelous and breathtaking thing to think about. But suddenly jumping from amazement to conceptualizing some sentient being creating all this (God in our image anyone?) is unwarranted.

Perhaps our environment is itself intelligent (Gaia!). There are so many possibilities that it boggles the mind. But one need not know all the intricacies and mechanics of reality to live in harmony with reality. Such is the joy of intuition!


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Offlineleery11
I Tell You What!

Registered: 06/24/05
Posts: 5,998
Last seen: 8 years, 11 months
Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: dblaney]
    #5782245 - 06/22/06 10:34 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

don't let what I say discredit what you found.

You, through synchrnoicity, were lead to revelation and it is pertinent..... accept it's profound nature and be happy and grateful for it, and for the capacity to feel such things.

It is your personal truth at least and a unviersal one at best... but here is my skepticism if you wanna read.... it doesn't mean you're wrong, this is just my mind trying to grasp such things:
i don't see how there can be one creator..... reigning over all.

unless he isn't real.

becuase i mean think it

we're real right? (arguably "no"?) well then...... in order for us to be real we had to be created.... because our unvierse is so bogglingly complex right?

Well how more bogglingly complex is a supreme creator that has the authority to create everything? Even more so... so if he's real, he has to have a source of creation too... eh?

I suppose things don't make sense at all I mean... if you really think about it just the fact that you exist at all is completely mind blowing, and could render you in the fetal position. No it doesn't make any sense to me at all..... but it doesn't really make sense that there is a sentient God-thing who deliberately designed everything to be an exact way.... but ah isn't it...

isn't it circular? God is an easy solution because when faced with the immense complexities our minds are blown. There could be a God, a conscious and sentient God. Perhaps God is just dreaming, and we are his characters.

I mean I can see how in the begining there was just one consciousness, and somehow it was split and divided many many many times, so we are lesser manifestations of that consciousness and can tap that consciousness within. I'm not sure how I can see that a God painstakingly and deliberately made everything htough.

But at the same time... I can. In a way it makes sense..... in a way it doesn't

How is there a God though? How can there possibly be a being so powerful.... how did it come into existence? How can it have always existed, if we haven't always existed? What is.... what is typing.

How are we real? I dunno man.... don't know at all.

there is something, and we can go ahead and call it God, and I will be okay with that..... creationism itself I am not so sure about.


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!

Edited by leery11 (06/22/06 10:38 PM)

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OfflineBasilides
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: Icelander]
    #5782666 - 06/23/06 12:48 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Way to NOT GET THE JOKE Icelander.  :tongue:


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

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Offlineslaphappy
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: Basilides]
    #5782746 - 06/23/06 01:31 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Humanity.

PAH!


--------------------
The argent messenger of truth beyond truth, the antithesis of life, cruel and bleak as interstellar space, pulseless and frozen as absolute zero, dazzling with the frost of irrefragable logic and unforgettable fact.

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: hoopershroomer]
    #5782752 - 06/23/06 01:36 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Do you have any idea how many stars there are in the universe? Even if a tiny percentage of them have planets, and a tiny percentage of those are Earthlike, that leaves billions and billions of planets much like our own. Saying that it's luck or divine providence that we live on a planet with conditions ideal for the kind of life that evolved here is really absurd.


--------------------

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Offlineslaphappy
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: Silversoul]
    #5782795 - 06/23/06 02:05 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Letting numbers negate the existence of God is absurd.

Everyone knows God is just a word.


--------------------
The argent messenger of truth beyond truth, the antithesis of life, cruel and bleak as interstellar space, pulseless and frozen as absolute zero, dazzling with the frost of irrefragable logic and unforgettable fact.

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Offlinebugi_bi
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Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 52
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: hoopershroomer]
    #5782889 - 06/23/06 03:03 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

hoopershroomer said:
"look at the sun, look at the moon. look at the formulation of the light of the day. look at the stars...the way they are...placed in the sky so we(humans) can guide ourselves across the earth. look at the ships we sailed across the ocean for the benefit of mankind...and the waves that blow them. look at the clouds that bring the rain...and the crops that grow, and the food you eat....and look within yoursleves, and the farthest horizons. all of these things are signs which are clear for those who are wise, for those who contemplate, for those who have the ability to understand. In other words, the creator is pointing to his creation as the proof of the reality of his existence and his power and his knowledge."




i understood this like its all placed there to help us...i have to be wrong cuz thats all messed up IMO...
its like what came first egg or the chicken....human or earth...is earth shaped according to humans or are the humans shaped according to earth...


--------------------

end

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OfflineBlueCoyote
Beyond
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: slaphappy]
    #5782906 - 06/23/06 03:12 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Yeah, and words are only names and there exist many names for g*d, while one always fails to call him by one name :grin:

Ice: Clean in front of your hut, first :rolleyes:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Offlinecapliberty
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: dblaney]
    #5783263 - 06/23/06 09:06 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

dblaney said:
Quote:

capliberty said:
i can't bye the argument that reality propagating reality as an adequate explanation for creation, this statement here is a mere assumption and based on human conception that doesn't encompass the whole.

All of sudden earth made dinosaurs extinct and human into existence all on its own propagation, OK you had a ice age, whipped out the dinosaurs, then monkeys already existed, but some how they evolved into cave men, and if it wasn't monkeys then where did we evolve from, but you look at monkeys where is the transition species with the higher levels of intelligence, can you attempt to explain the evolution process a little better, how did monkey intelligence become human intelligence, how did the monkeys loose its hair and turn colors, and why was it just the monkeys, us suddenly appearing is not an adequate explanation of reality propagating itself,




Basically you are expressing amazement that reality is the way it is. I agree, it is a truly marvelous and breathtaking thing to think about. But suddenly jumping from amazement to conceptualizing some sentient being creating all this (God in our image anyone?) is unwarranted.

Perhaps our environment is itself intelligent (Gaia!). There are so many possibilities that it boggles the mind. But one need not know all the intricacies and mechanics of reality to live in harmony with reality. Such is the joy of intuition!




Whats amazing is conceptualizing that we're an accidental aberration of space or the cosmos, space didn't create me, for something to propagate itself, you still need something to trigger the chain reaction, such as how we are born, you need a egg and sperm to conjoin, after that then the two propagates and we evolve into human beings, but without the triggering of the two a human is none existent,

look at the moon, their is no ecological balance to introduce any molecules to trigger a chain reaction in which life can evolve, and anyways what gave the unconscious universe the ability to create the first form molecules that eventually create different matters of life, how was a tiger molecule obtained naturally, then how was a human, or a billion other species of molecules obtained naturally, what evolutionists overlook is the fact of the first existing elements and molecules to trigger the chain reaction of creation, you can easily explain its creation after assuming its introduced but how was it introduced is the question,

don't tell me that it introduced itself through ecological balance, that space or the cosmos is the true genius behind our creation, reality can't explain itself, that things were made by accident, reality creates reality only up to certain point, things have to be made into existence, for them to exist, don't tell me earth always existed and life on it always existed, is it so hard to believe that a higher intelligence, whether it was the cosmos or whether something else planned this, regardless this working of existence had a higher level of intelligence, besides what makes water, air, certain temperature, give life. Why are these inherited life giving properties,

Are we truly alive, is vegetation alive, life to me consciousness, why is it so hard to assume that there's higher levels of consciousness, vegetation has no consciousness but its considered alive, besides human can only grasp 5 dimensions at best, we perceive a 3 to 4 dimensional universe, but math has proven infinite dimensions,

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: Basilides]
    #5783321 - 06/23/06 09:47 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Basilides said:
Way to NOT GET THE JOKE Icelander.  :tongue:




You think I wasn't joking? That's why I said you must be joking. :tongue: I think your posts are great. :wink:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Invisibledblaney
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: capliberty]
    #5783331 - 06/23/06 09:55 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

you need a egg and sperm to conjoin, after that then the two propagates and we evolve into human beings, but without the triggering of the two a human is none existent,

Right! For something to arise, the necessary causes and conditions must be in place.

you still need something to trigger the chain reaction

Alright, but such a trigger is itself an effect of various causes and depends upon many conditions for ist appearance. I completely disagree with Aquinas, there is no such thing as a 'first cause', as that would go against EVERYTHING that is observable. Nothing arises of its own accord...it depends on causes and conditions. The only logical conclusion is that the appearance of cause and effect is beginningless.

what evolutionists overlook is the fact of the first existing elements and molecules to trigger the chain reaction of creation, you can easily explain its creation after assuming its introduced but how was it introduced is the question,

Well if you go back far enough cosmologically you will find that the elements haven't always existed. The current Big Bang theory proposes that during the first few moments of our universe, matter was so super-dense that it took a bit of time for it to expand and evolve enough for the elements to become present. In other words, the necessary causes and conditions had to be in place for the elements to arise.

reality can't explain itself, that things were made by accident, reality creates reality only up to certain point, things have to be made into existence, for them to exist

I imagine you're right, if you were to somehow ask reality why it is so, it would have no idea. Things are not made by accident though. The very word accident means something unintentional, but intent is something that is limited to the human mind (at least as far as I know). Reality didn't intend to unfold in the manner in which it has, it simply did and is.

I'm not too sure what you mean by 'made into existence'. Things arise when the necessary causes and conditions are in place, but that's it. Things don't simply materialize out of the void: you don't see unicorns suddenly appearing in the middle of a highway; you don't see monkeys falling from the sky. If things did simply appear of their own accord then there would be no cause and effect and anything could happen. You could plant a marijuana seed and an office building could sprout.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: slaphappy]
    #5783490 - 06/23/06 11:09 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

slaphappy said:
Letting numbers negate the existence of God is absurd.

Everyone knows God is just a word.



Who said I'm negating the existence of God? I'm just showing how flawed the guy's argument was.


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Offlinezeegos
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: Silversoul]
    #5783518 - 06/23/06 11:23 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Heres one for you. Everything that exists is either mass or energy. These are two things can be described as non living. e.g a rock, a spoon, a gust of wind, light. If we cut down to what we consist of, you will see we are justa mass of particles and energy. How can we be alive and have the ability to think and feel emotion?
You may say, well were made of cells and cartilage and what not, all arranged to function like we do. Well these cells and body materials are all made up of carbons, oxygens and even further, protons, electrons, neutrons and what not. If you cut it down that far, how can every non-living that existed from the big bang create living materials and beings as advanced as we are?
What im simply saying is, how can something non-living 'create' something living?

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Invisibledblaney
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: zeegos]
    #5783541 - 06/23/06 11:33 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

What im simply saying is, how can something non-living 'create' something living?

The right causes and conditions.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: zeegos]
    #5783544 - 06/23/06 11:34 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Interesting. Maybe living and non-living aren't real distinctions. Energy may be more the matter. (Pun intended)


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: zeegos]
    #5783580 - 06/23/06 11:49 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Living things are made from organic compounds. Under the conditions of early Earth, organic compounds managed to group together to form the first cells. Eventually, single-celled organisms gave way to superorganisms, from which came the first multi-celled organisms. That's how life came from non-life. How consciousness arises, however, seems to be a greater mystery.


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Offlinecapliberty
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: zeegos]
    #5783591 - 06/23/06 11:53 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

You may say, well were made of cells and cartilage and what not, all arranged to function like we do. Well these cells and body materials are all made up of carbons, oxygens and even further, protons,
Quote:

electrons, neutrons and what not. If you cut it down that far, how can every non-living that existed from the big bang create living materials and beings as advanced as we are?
What I'm simply saying is, how can something non-living 'create' something living?




I kind of arguing the same point about creation and existence but how can one define living, living and not living is not definitive, its not an "either or situation", life is a relative term, what constitutes something living, trees live, but do they express emotions, have a conscious, so in what form do they live, other than just purl existing, I've noticed in animals, that their conscious level is just merely a simple program, they act and behave like their program, so to me they kind of resemble robots, or natural machines, there not aware of their simple existence and basically react to whatever happens to them, simple cause n effect, we are more alive based on consciousness, we are aware of our existence, we can manipulate our environment to transcend natural laws that are obvious,

but as conscious as we are, we can be looked as mere piss ants without a dam clue when observing history, we basically act and react like any other animal, in a sense we're robots in our own right because our consciousness is still limited, to me being alive is based on consciousness, because the truth is if your no longer consciously aware of anything you don't exist, you may exist but it matters not if your not conscious of it, so their would be no you to tie into your existence, and it works vice versa, the more consciously aware you are the more alive you are, like higher forms of intelligence transcend into a spiritual state, could be because they transcend mortal boundaries,

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Offlinehoopershroomer
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: capliberty]
    #5783663 - 06/23/06 12:19 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

the responses im getting for this post is everything i wanted, hoped and wished for, plus way more. you all are extremely intelligent and its very enlightening and mind expanding to read all of your great responses. please continue...


--------------------
"Life lived in the absence of the psychedelic experience that primordial shamanism is based on is life trivialized, life denied, life enslaved to the ego."

"You teach the world how to treat you, by showing the world how you treat yourself."

A well developed sense of humor is far superior to any religion"

"Everything you could want and could be, you already have and are."

:peace: & :heart:

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Offlinecapliberty
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: capliberty]
    #5783682 - 06/23/06 12:31 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Things are not made by accident though. The very word accident means something unintentional, but intent is something that is limited to the human mind (at least as far as I know). Reality didn't intend to unfold in the manner in which it has, it simply did and is.

when I say accident I mean by chance, sense your assuming that reality or the cosmos had no consciousness of what its was doing, then creation was made by chance on earth because all the elemental conditions were in balance, you can look at all the other planets and see that it takes a strict level of the right conditions to make life occur, the odds are like probably a thousand to 1 for planets to create the right conditions for life form to exist.

OK lets take it even to smaller level, how does these elements organize themselves into these organisms that eventually become rats, dogs, cats, cow, horses and billion other types of animals, and humans, how did it know to obtain these intrinsic properties that eventually create a huge elephants, how was the law of cause n effect to know how to organize itself into most complex, breathing, thinking machines, what guided these simple one cell organisms into creating large masses with complex structures, how did it distinguish its proprieties, into making different bodies for different animals, how mother nature get these ideas to propagate itself into the distinct images with these distinct characteristics, you can simple state cause n effect but you can't explain the nature of cause n effect, I'd say mother nature has one dam good imagination,

Edited by capliberty (06/23/06 12:34 PM)

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OfflinePanoramix
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: capliberty]
    #5783721 - 06/23/06 12:52 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

"I've noticed in animals, that their conscious level is just merely a simple program, they act and behave like their program, so to me they kind of resemble robots, or natural machines, there not aware of their simple existence and basically react to whatever happens to them"

Why does my dog chase her tail for no readily apparent reason? What in her programming would account for her trying to walk around with it in her mouth when she does manage to catch it, though it invariably causes her to fall on her ass? And why does she get embarassed and stop when she notices she's being observed? Stupidity is not something you find in robots, and it's abundant in animals. And I've never seen a tree do anything to convince me it didn't know EXACTLY what's going on. If I were a tree and were in posession of the mental faculties I currently have, I'd do the exact same thing they do.


--------------------
Don't worry, I'm wrong.

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Offlinecapliberty
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: Panoramix]
    #5783750 - 06/23/06 01:08 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

You would do all the things that you listed as being a dog or a tree because its within their programming, but do alot of dogs know simple physics, when a large mass like a car comes by not to run in front of it, I've noticed that cats seemed to grasp this concept a little quicker, these are two distinctions of the mass populations of cats and dogs, its within their programming to be stupid and chase there tail, in their feeble mind, their tail represents a moving object to chase after, shoot the tail could be alive, it could be a snake, who knows why their chasing it. Thats what makes them so entertaining because their premeditative and honestly oblivious to there actions, up to a fault. They know nothing why their doing what their do, I guess dog intelligence stems off more from doing then thinking.

Edited by capliberty (06/23/06 01:11 PM)

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Invisibledblaney
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: capliberty]
    #5783935 - 06/23/06 01:58 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

how was the law of cause n effect to know how to organize itself into most complex, breathing, thinking machines,

It doesn't know. The law of cause and effect is not some entity, it's the way apparent reality behaves. It doesn't think to itself "Well today I'm going to arrange the universe so that the Patriots win the Superbowl." If certain causes and conditions are present, then a certain effect will arise. If other causes and conditions are present, then a different effect will arise. Consciousness arose because of the necessary causes and conditions. If the necessary causes and conditions for consciousness weren't in place, then consciousness wouldn't have arisen, and something else might have instead. You see this everyday. When the conditions for consciousness deteriorate (eg someone's body ages) past a certain point, consciousness ceases and the person 'dies'.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Offlinecapliberty
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: dblaney]
    #5784023 - 06/23/06 02:28 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

If certain causes and conditions are present, then a certain effect will arise

all these natural conditions dictated the varieties of species of different animals, a billion different species of animals were conceived because of the right conditions, that some how the sun, the water, the environmental factors guided the different elements and molecules into being a certain image with certain characteristics, and it made a clear distinction with one animal having supreme mental faculties, not two, why just humans, because apes were given intellectual capacity to evolve, what environmental factor dictated this capacity early within monkeys, why not their hybrid counter parts, some how the earth and weather conditions conceived a tiger molecule or an elephant molecule, that their image is an exact extrapolate of their conditions, when the conditions are exactly the same, what dictates cause n effect then, how come so many variety exist from simple one cell molecule, to me it would seem only varied amount of characteristics would be interwoven in biology of the animals in that area, but you still get high level of discrepancies and variations of animals in the same environment, when I say "how did it know" I mean how did it distinguish itself from the rest when all conditions are similar to make a perfectly unique animal image, how was it able to conceive such variations and intricacies, to me something had to give this process a conscious path, causes and conditions is to ambiguous of a statement for me as an adequate explanation for the many different variety of life that exists, beside evolution is still a partial theory that doesn't not explain everything,

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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: capliberty]
    #5784044 - 06/23/06 02:37 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

We exist, in the particular form and function we have evolved into, because we can. This has been true of all permutations of life. Any possible permutations which can survive, do. The particular forms which can be successful in this environment are the forms we see around us. All other possibilities have not survived.

The planets, including ours, the moons and stars, our precious and unique biosphere, all exist because they can. They have not been destroyed and returned to chaos from order. Everything else which has existed, which has emerged from chaos into order, has been destroyed.

And it goes on...

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OfflineMicrocosmatrix
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: hoopershroomer]
    #5784069 - 06/23/06 02:46 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

There is a God because I created him myself


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:orly:


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: capliberty]
    #5784071 - 06/23/06 02:46 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Genetic mutations allow for the variations of which you speak. Certain causes and conditions led to mutations which over time evolved into what we now know as 'intelligence'.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: Microcosmatrix]
    #5784081 - 06/23/06 02:49 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I tried that once.  It was a mail-order kit...kinda like Sea Monkeys?  Very disappointing.  I added faith, worship, persecution of non-believers, and self-denial, then waited six days.  Nothing. :sad:

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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: Veritas]
    #5784101 - 06/23/06 02:58 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Just take LSD and turn yourself into your own god!


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:orly:


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: Microcosmatrix]
    #5784106 - 06/23/06 03:00 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

:lol:  Sounds like an advertisement:

"Instant divinity--just add acid!"  :psychsplit:

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OfflineMicrocosmatrix
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: Veritas]
    #5784114 - 06/23/06 03:03 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

With a sanity-back guarantee if not 100% satisfied!  :bouncysmoke:


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:orly:


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: Microcosmatrix]
    #5784119 - 06/23/06 03:06 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Eh, sanity is overrated.  :shrug:  Those who insist that they are sane seem to be the craziest of us all.

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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: Veritas]
    #5784135 - 06/23/06 03:18 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Sanity = the condition of the sheep

insanity = those who really are crazy

unsanity = the LSD user


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Offlinecapliberty
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: Veritas]
    #5784183 - 06/23/06 03:31 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

So everything exists because they can, and everything that doesn't exist is because they can't, inconclusive reasoning,

the "can" is the "why", I can be alot of different things, but will I, "does this explain why something does exist",

images and charateristics are abitrary are independent to environment

I can conceive of many different images working just fine in any echo system anywhere, because it can doesn't explain why these bioshperes exists in the manner they do

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: Microcosmatrix]
    #5784263 - 06/23/06 04:02 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Microcosmatrix said:
Sanity = the condition of the sheep





what does everyone have against sheep? They are such nice animals


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Offlinezeegos
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5784348 - 06/23/06 04:53 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Yea, when posting the word 'living' it was pretty vague. Conciousness is a better word.
Going into deep conversation like this creates frustration for me and i wish i could just find an answer. This makes death seem more interesting than just 'game over'. Death is an answer and death could be the begining of a whole new journey.
Another point i would also like to discuss is, if we can be born once, surely we can be born again. I have had thoughts and philosophical nights thinking about reincarnation.

Heres what im simply thinking:

• Before you are born, you don’t exist
• After you die you don’t exist
• Why should living a life prevent you from living another after you die?

I just think that the befor life and after life you are in the same position and having lived a life wount prevent being born again.

what do yous reckon?

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OfflinePanoramix
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: capliberty]
    #5784381 - 06/23/06 05:07 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

You ignored the part where my dog gets embarassed when she realizes she's being watched. Why would she feel the embarassment if not because she KNEW she was acting foolishly, and was in fact doing it because it was fun and frivolous, she was engaging in leisure activity, fun for it's own sake. I don't know why you think I dog trying to beat a car across the road is evidence of it's lack of understanding about physics. I'm sure you've made some bad calls in your time. Dogs can do differential calculus in their heads fast enough to catch a ball in flight with their mouths. It may not be calculating any numbers when it catches the ball, but I think that only makes the feat more impressive.

"...weather conditions conceived a tiger molecule or an elephant molecule, that their image is an exact extrapolate of their conditions, when the conditions are exactly the same, what dictates cause n effect then, how come so many variety exist from simple one cell molecule..."

I mean, you're pretty quick to knock dogs' intelligence, but no one is taking from your OBVIOUS lack of understanding of even the most simple chemistry or biology that you aren't a concious individual. There is no tiger molecule or dog molecule or person molecule, there are a staggering abundance of different molecules in even the simplest one-cell organism, and many(most) of the molecules found in the simplest life forms are also present in the most complex ones. If you meant tiger DNA or elephant DNA and bacteria DNA (the set of molecules most distinctive of their respective organisms) I think you'll find that they have largely the same composition, elephant and tiger DNA just codes for far more information than bacteria DNA, allowing greater variety of protein structures to be available in the composition of the more complex animals. In terms of genetic differences, that's it that's all. So when you take into consideration that all the animals are made out of essentially the same stuff, just arranged in different ways, maybe it'll clear up how such diversity is possible in spite of the similar conditions they all exist in.

"one animal having supreme mental faculties, not two, why just humans, because apes were given intellectual capacity to evolve, what environmental factor dictated this capacity early within monkeys, why not their hybrid counter parts"

Umm, the definition of a species is that it can produce viable offspring with and only with members of it's own species. Wolves + coyotes = viable offspring, they are sub-species of the same larger species, donkeys + horses = mules, non-viable offspring, so we can be sure that they are in fact different species. So as to why there was no hybrid quasi-human, quasi-apeman hybrid, well maybe proto-humans were getting it on with neanderthals, but no viable offspring resulted. They were too genetically dissimilar to be considered members of the same species. As for why humans developped a 'distinct intelligence', they didn't. They developped distinct ways of exploiting that intelligence.

And I'm going to have a hard time not coming off as a dick on this, but kindly seperate different trains of thought into different sentences rather than just writing one super-giant run-on sentence. You'll find people have an easier time following you if you do.


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Offlinecapliberty
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: Panoramix]
    #5784538 - 06/23/06 05:59 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

when argue evolution over divine intervention you can beat dead dog to ground but as you think that your evolution theory holds and is an adequate absolute explanation to creation and existence, and I'm not saying its not aleast a partial explanation, their is evidence to suggest evolution explains existence, their is no evidence it to explain creation, because the right environmental factors are in balance does not dictate image or characteristic, image and characteristic are totally independent from a creation standpoint, for all I know purple people with 3 eyes could be suited specimens for earth, and their could be a genetically created being suited to the planet of ur anus, so with that said believe whatever you want

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Invisibledblaney
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: capliberty]
    #5784596 - 06/23/06 06:34 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

because the right environmental factors are in balance does not dictate image or characteristic

I think a better way of putting it would be: image and characteristic are determined by the presence of certain environmental factors.

'There's evidence' ( :wink: ) to indicate that living creatures have DNA: a genetic code. Which genes are expressed is determined by the presence or lack thereof of certain environmental factors.

So then you ask "Why is the genetic code the way it is?" "What is the origin of DNA?" Well, that's a damn good question so I'm gonna go post it in the science and technology board :grin:.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

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OfflinePanoramix
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: capliberty]
    #5784673 - 06/23/06 07:04 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

"There is evidence to suggest evolution explains existence, their is no evidence it to explain creation"

Absolutely, yes.  There's no explaining Creation in a way that doesn't assume the existance of a Creator being/force.  But I would argue that existance is as excellent a piece of proof against Creation from my perspective as it is for Creation from your perspective (hope you don't mind my speaking for you there, that seems to be the view you're expressing though).  I would maintain that because there's something, there could never be nothing, or more precisely, there could never be ONLY nothing.  But the only way there could concievably be nothing would be if there was just plain nothing, on account of nothing existing at the same time as something else can't really be termed nothing in the actual sense of the word.  'Well,' you may be asking, 'why could there never be only nothing?  That's the only nothing there could be!'  Maybe you aren't asking that at all, I'm just trying to extrapolate from your posts what you might be inclined to say, feel free to set me straight if I'm not being fair to your views.  Anyhoo, there couldn't be nothing-and-nothing-but from a strictly rational, physics-y tack because nothing's created or destroyed, it just changes form.  'Yes, well that's what would make a Creator a Creator, jackass', you might be inclined to reply.  If Creators were subject to the laws of physics they wouldn't be very special, now would they?  So the only way to argue this is outside the realm of beliefs we like to call Science.  I would argue, from a strictly spiritual perspective (which is what this forum's all about, I suppose) that as soon as you decide to recognize the existance of any given thing, you're stuck with that thing, or at least it's Creator, as far back the timeline you may care to go.  Did this Creator pop into existance spontaneiously out of absolute nothingness?  Well, naturally.  What could create a Creator?  Well, there was nothing, then there stopped being nothing and was a Something so not-nothing that it could generate all the things it could care to out of nothing, which would be fortunate, 'cause that's all the Creator would have to work with at first.  So then by what mechanism would the Creator have come into existance?  Couldn't have created itself, as a Creator would still have to be before he could be creative.  If the Creator was the first thing and aside from it there was not a thing at all, then the Creator would have to have risen out of nothing, and nothing can't be without implying something else.  So if nothing comes first and mandates a something by it's very existance, and THEN you have a Creator, what you have is actually a Creator that was, in fact, beat to the act of Creation by it's own sudden entrance into reality.  And if nothing made the Creator, doesn't that make nothing the Greater Creator?

Hee hee, that rhymes!  Greater Creator!  I crack me up. :uptosomething: :biggrin: :tongue2: :uptosomething:


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: Panoramix]
    #5784681 - 06/23/06 07:10 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Creationism suggests origins of life on earth, not origins of universe.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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OfflinePanoramix
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5784704 - 06/23/06 07:23 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

So you're saying there could be a Creator god who created the Earth, but just the Earth and not the rest of existance? I'd call such a fella a Planet-Builder and Life-Giver, not a genuine Creator.


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OfflineMicrocosmatrix
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: Panoramix]
    #5784729 - 06/23/06 07:31 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Whenever there's threads about God and I see posts like:

Quote:

Absolutely, yes. There's no explaining Creation in a way that doesn't assume the existance of a Creator being/force. But I would argue that existance is as excellent a piece of proof against Creation from my perspective as it is for Creation from your perspective (hope you don't mind my speaking for you there, that seems to be the view you're expressing though). I would maintain that because there's something, there could never be nothing, or more precisely, there could never be ONLY nothing. But the only way there could concievably be nothing would be if there was just plain nothing, on account of nothing existing at the same time as something else can't really be termed nothing in the actual sense of the word. 'Well,' you may be asking, 'why could there never be only nothing? That's the only nothing there could be!' Maybe you aren't asking that at all, I'm just trying to extrapolate from your posts what you might be inclined to say, feel free to set me straight if I'm not being fair to your views. Anyhoo, there couldn't be nothing-and-nothing-but from a strictly rational, physics-y tack because nothing's created or destroyed, it just changes form. 'Yes, well that's what would make a Creator a Creator, jackass', you might be inclined to reply. If Creators were subject to the laws of physics they wouldn't be very special, now would they? So the only way to argue this is outside the realm of beliefs we like to call Science. I would argue, from a strictly spiritual perspective (which is what this forum's all about, I suppose) that as soon as you decide to recognize the existance of any given thing, you're stuck with that thing, or at least it's Creator, as far back the timeline you may care to go. Did this Creator pop into existance spontaneiously out of absolute nothingness? Well, naturally. What could create a Creator? Well, there was nothing, then there stopped being nothing and was a Something so not-nothing that it could generate all the things it could care to out of nothing, which would be fortunate, 'cause that's all the Creator would have to work with at first. So then by what mechanism would the Creator have come into existance? Couldn't have created itself, as a Creator would still have to be before he could be creative. If the Creator was the first thing and aside from it there was not a thing at all, then the Creator would have to have risen out of nothing, and nothing can't be without implying something else. So if nothing comes first and mandates a something by it's very existance, and THEN you have a Creator, what you have is actually a Creator that was, in fact, beat to the act of Creation by it's own sudden entrance into reality. And if nothing made the Creator, doesn't that make nothing the Greater Creator?




I'm just like WTF, all that typing for such a simple concept. That there might be an intelligent designer to life. You can't break this shit down with science or logic, it doesn't lend itself to it. We are not the creators, so we can not nail it down with our limited mental capacities.  :stoned:


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: Panoramix]
    #5784747 - 06/23/06 07:36 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Panoramix said:
So you're saying there could be a Creator god who created the Earth, but just the Earth and not the rest of existance? I'd call such a fella a Planet-Builder and Life-Giver, not a genuine Creator.




Call it what you like, but Creationism is oposition to Evolution, both are ideas regarding creation and development of life on earth.

The idea behind evolution is that life was created by chance in certain conditions. The idea behind creationism is that all species were created separatly by a third party.
It has nothing to do with stars planets and galaxies, but with species of earth and their environment.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: Microcosmatrix]
    #5784755 - 06/23/06 07:38 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Microcosmatrix said:
Whenever there's threads about God and I see posts like:

Quote:

Absolutely, yes. There's no explaining Creation in a way that doesn't assume the existance of a Creator being/force. But I would argue that existance is as excellent a piece of proof against Creation from my perspective as it is for Creation from your perspective (hope you don't mind my speaking for you there, that seems to be the view you're expressing though). I would maintain that because there's something, there could never be nothing, or more precisely, there could never be ONLY nothing. But the only way there could concievably be nothing would be if there was just plain nothing, on account of nothing existing at the same time as something else can't really be termed nothing in the actual sense of the word. 'Well,' you may be asking, 'why could there never be only nothing? That's the only nothing there could be!' Maybe you aren't asking that at all, I'm just trying to extrapolate from your posts what you might be inclined to say, feel free to set me straight if I'm not being fair to your views. Anyhoo, there couldn't be nothing-and-nothing-but from a strictly rational, physics-y tack because nothing's created or destroyed, it just changes form. 'Yes, well that's what would make a Creator a Creator, jackass', you might be inclined to reply. If Creators were subject to the laws of physics they wouldn't be very special, now would they? So the only way to argue this is outside the realm of beliefs we like to call Science. I would argue, from a strictly spiritual perspective (which is what this forum's all about, I suppose) that as soon as you decide to recognize the existance of any given thing, you're stuck with that thing, or at least it's Creator, as far back the timeline you may care to go. Did this Creator pop into existance spontaneiously out of absolute nothingness? Well, naturally. What could create a Creator? Well, there was nothing, then there stopped being nothing and was a Something so not-nothing that it could generate all the things it could care to out of nothing, which would be fortunate, 'cause that's all the Creator would have to work with at first. So then by what mechanism would the Creator have come into existance? Couldn't have created itself, as a Creator would still have to be before he could be creative. If the Creator was the first thing and aside from it there was not a thing at all, then the Creator would have to have risen out of nothing, and nothing can't be without implying something else. So if nothing comes first and mandates a something by it's very existance, and THEN you have a Creator, what you have is actually a Creator that was, in fact, beat to the act of Creation by it's own sudden entrance into reality. And if nothing made the Creator, doesn't that make nothing the Greater Creator?




I'm just like WTF, all that typing for such a simple concept. That there might be an intelligent designer to life. You can't break this shit down with science or logic, it doesn't lend itself to it. We are not the creators, so we can not nail it down with our limited mental capacities.  :stoned:




If we are not creators, then who created the computer you are typing on? Once it was dust and minerals, and now it is a machine so complex, almost as complex as primitive lifeforms


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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OfflinePanoramix
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: Microcosmatrix]
    #5784756 - 06/23/06 07:38 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Well, yeah, but I need to work on my typing skillz, see?

Plus he insulted my dog's intelligence... :smirk:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: Panoramix]
    #5784906 - 06/23/06 08:28 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Panoramix said:
You ignored the part where my dog gets embarassed when she realizes she's being watched.  Why would she feel the embarassment if not because she KNEW she was acting foolishly, and was in fact doing it because it was fun and frivolous, she was engaging in leisure activity, fun for it's own sake.  I don't know why you think I dog trying to beat a car across the road is evidence of it's lack of understanding about physics.  I'm sure you've made some bad calls in your time.  Dogs can do differential calculus in their heads fast enough to catch a ball in flight with their mouths.  It may not be calculating any numbers when it catches the ball, but I think that only makes the feat more impressive.




:eek:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: capliberty]
    #5786604 - 06/24/06 01:27 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

capliberty said:
So everything exists because they can, and everything that doesn't exist is because they can't, inconclusive reasoning,

the "can" is the "why", I can be alot of different things, but will I, "does this explain why something does exist",

images and charateristics are abitrary are independent to environment

I can conceive of many different images working just fine in any echo system anywhere, because it can doesn't explain why these bioshperes exists in the manner they do




Yes, actually, it does. Life exists because it can. It takes particular forms because genetic mutations occur. If those forms are successful (pass on their DNA), that mutation persists. If the mutation is not passed on to another generation, it does not persist.

There may be other forms which potentially could survive in our particular environment, but those mutations have not been presented for testing as yet. At some point they may be, and will be subjected to the same rule: can they survive to pass on their particular code?

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OfflinePanoramix
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5787120 - 06/24/06 05:59 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

"Call it what you like, but Creationism is oposition to Evolution, both are ideas regarding creation and development of life on earth... It has nothing to do with stars planets and galaxies, but with species of earth and their environment." --OldWoodSpectre

Okay, so let's say that by 'CREATOR(god)' what was in fact meant was an external influence responsible for life's beginning on Earth, but who had nothing to do with the creation of anything else. Well, that would be inarguably true, I doubt that even the most adamant and hardline materialist could deny that the sun was fairly directly responsible for the conditions that allowed the formation of the first simple amino-acid chains. So let's say that's a given and that by external third-party influences we mean something more along the lines of short, pale big-eyed aliens pouring some genetic material into the primordial ooze, some sort of concious and deliberate intervention that allowed life to arise on Earth. Well, if it's responsible for life on Earth but not the existance of the cosmos, then what created it? Did it spontaniously spring out of nothing on it's planet or in it's plane of existance, or would it have needed an external influencer as well? If IT could have been life generated out of lifelessness, then why is it so inconcievable that we might have done the same? And if it required a Creator of it's own, then it was in fact that Creator that created us, it just did it by proxy.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: Panoramix]
    #5787168 - 06/24/06 06:15 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Panoramix said:
"Call it what you like, but Creationism is oposition to Evolution, both are ideas regarding creation and development of life on earth... It has nothing to do with stars planets and galaxies, but with species of earth and their environment." --OldWoodSpectre

Okay, so let's say that by 'CREATOR(god)' what was in fact meant was an external influence responsible for life's beginning on Earth, but who had nothing to do with the creation of anything else. Well, that would be inarguably true, I doubt that even the most adamant and hardline materialist could deny that the sun was fairly directly responsible for the conditions that allowed the formation of the first simple amino-acid chains. So let's say that's a given and that by external third-party influences we mean something more along the lines of short, pale big-eyed aliens pouring some genetic material into the primordial ooze, some sort of concious and deliberate intervention that allowed life to arise on Earth. Well, if it's responsible for life on Earth but not the existance of the cosmos, then what created it? Did it spontaniously spring out of nothing on it's planet or in it's plane of existance, or would it have needed an external influencer as well? If IT could have been life generated out of lifelessness, then why is it so inconcievable that we might have done the same? And if it required a Creator of it's own, then it was in fact that Creator that created us, it just did it by proxy.




That's an interesting question.

First of all, I really didn't have short gray large-eyed creatures in mind. I'd actually rather tie them to the "legion", rebels, lucifer etc. But let's not go into religion, let's stick to this idea of creationism..

If life created life, where did the first life come from?

The answer to that question would be in the ultimate knowledge about the structure of the universe.
If these gods exist, then universe is a little different than we though. Maybe life is one of essential properties of the universe.
Maybe life as we know it is only an expression of a different dimension of life, only a projection of some lifeforce we all contain within?
Like a giant drawing board, where children draw, and the drawings ask themselfs who drew the children?
Nobody drew them, because they aren't drawn, they are born, and "born" is something the drawings can't even imagine

I guess what I'm trying to say with this metaphore is: maybe life is something much greater than we can understand at this point and maybe we are asking the wrong question here:
If we are drawn, who drew then drawers?
Nobody, they are an expression of some process that is outside our level of understanding and imagination (like birth is to these drawings)


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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OfflinePanoramix
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5787224 - 06/24/06 06:35 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

"First of all, I really didn't have short gray large-eyed creatures in mind. I'd actually rather tie them to the "legion", rebels, lucifer etc..."

Sorry, meant no offense.  I'm shamefully ignorant about such things.

"Like a giant drawing board, where children draw, and the drawings ask themselfs who drew the children?
Nobody drew them, because they aren't drawn, they are born, and "born" is something the drawings can't even imagine"

Ooo, I dig that.  Yeah, I'm not trying to claim that all of conciousness sprang from goo lumping together in ways that ended up self-replicating.  But life, as we know it, which is to say the chemical interactions we term respiration and reproduction and those other fundemental life processes can be understood as lumpy goo getting lumpier of no particular accord at all, save perhaps it's own.  I would say conciousness is present in all life, life can't not be concious on SOME level, but that conciousness can exist prior to and independently of life.  Life makes an excellent vehicle for conciousness, allowing conciousness to absorb information and so conciousness likes to cling to it.  Could conciousness have created life, and be that Creator?  Ehh, I don't personally think so, that'd be like clouds creating cats to my mind.  It lacks the means to strongly influence independent material reality, but it can give direction to organisms that would otherwise be occupied only with the tasks of growth and survival.  Geez, that sounds like some particularly half-baked garbage, I'm gonna attach an extra disclaimer to this post... :thumbdown:

:frown: I have seldom been more wrong :frown:


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: Panoramix]
    #5787267 - 06/24/06 06:54 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I guess consciousness can be a good word to describe this source of life, but really we have gone into daydreaming here, which is nice, but we are trying to discuss the idea of creationism, and anything before the act of creation can only be daydreaming, because even religious texts begin with creation of life on earth, and speak nothing of what was before that.
Probably because it is non of our concern, or at least wasn't back then.
Religious books were ment as manuals for the carbon toys on earth, and manuals don't contain biographies of writers.

Also you mentioned genetic manipulations.
I think if life on earth was created by someone, it would probably be made from scratch.
If such a creator did exist, it probably had skill to take air, stones and water (a metaphore for elements in nature) and make a DNA like a ropemaker would tie a rope from dry plants.
In other words, not like we make clones and genetic manipulations, but from scratch.
You know, a machine where you imput the design, and from raw elements a molecule is sequenced from scratch.
Like we today can use machines to write "happy birthday" with atoms using delicate sequencing.

Or maybe we are mechanical creations, only on such a sophisticated level that we don't percieve ourselfs as technology, but as something "natural"
When you zoom into a human body, you have cells, fluids, pipes, pumps, electrical wires etc.
Something like that could be manufactured if you had sophisticated tools.
Imagine a washing machine with a fractal structure, so that when the paint gets scratched, the tiny parts can rearange themselfs to fix it, and can also gather resources from surroundings to make another washing machine.

Then the new washing machine wakes up, and doesn't see that it is actually a machine because its idea of technology is sharpening sticks.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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OfflinePanoramix
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5787384 - 06/24/06 07:43 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

"Then the new washing machine wakes up, and doesn't see that it is actually a machine because its idea of technology is sharpening sticks."

If the washing-machine 'wakes up' then it isn't a washing machine anymore at all, but rather a squarish-shaped bloke with a penchant for washing clothes in his abdomen.  Particularly if it can nourish itself and make baby washing-machine blokes.

"because even religious texts begin with creation of life on earth, and speak nothing of what was before that"

So I take it the Bible isn't a religious text?  Again, I paraphrase; "And God created the heavens and the earth, and it was good.  THEN He made fishes in the seas and birds in skies and that was good too."  I can't think of a single creation myth that starts with mortal life and then makes a place for them to be.

"Also you mentioned genetic manipulations."  -OWS
"aliens pouring some genetic material into the primordial ooze" -Me
No genetic manipulation, there.  I was talking about an external influence adding life or the building blocks that allowed for life to an environment devoid of life.  The life had an external source and was added fully formed to a barren planet, in my postulation.  I went one further than you in terms of Creation because I said the Creator was using sources from outside this world for life, but it doesn't much matter if the DNA was prefab or whipped up when the Creator got here from the materials at hand (the composition of life would suggest the latter inasmuch as it suggest either, though).

"...but really we have gone into daydreaming here, which is nice, but..."

...And that's why I do nothing else, my friend. :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: Panoramix]
    #5787513 - 06/24/06 08:28 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

If the washing-machine 'wakes up' then it isn't a washing machine anymore at all, but rather a squarish-shaped bloke with a penchant for washing clothes in his abdomen. Particularly if it can nourish itself and make baby washing-machine blokes.




that's just a washing machine in you talking..

the complexity of a machine has not limits. One day we, humans will make machines that are aware of their own existence, that can reproduce, multiply, repair themselfs, regenerate etc.
Your TV will morph shapes and heal when you scratch it, and it will make baby TV's for aditional price of upgrade so that you don't have to go into the store for another one.
Can you think of one reason why we couldn't make such machines?
One day our machines will feel even more alive and random and fractal than our bodies are.

And as for the Bible, I said before the act of creation, I ment creation of not just humans but all earth or whatever.
Bible doesn't mention what was god doing before he created all that.

The way I see it, if this god did create life here, he also created the environment for it.
Creating a stable running ecosystem that runs forever without colapsing, with billions of species all having perfect place within the food chain, and making them adoptable without any intervention is a work of genius. Just think about what kind of wast computing it requires, the same kind of computing would alow prediction of the future for thousands of years, which is also something we attribute to this god.

If we tried making something like that, it wouldn't last a month: the giraffe-beaver mutants would eat all other species and die of hungar.


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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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OfflinePanoramix
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5793768 - 06/26/06 08:19 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Um, I watched this extremely informative program about how Homo Erectus (giggle giggle) evolved into Homo Sapiens the other night on the Nature of Things (David Suzuki is brilliance made flesh) and I was totally wrong in my earlier post where I spectualted in an uninformed sort of way about that very topic at the behest of OWS, if I recall correctly. Here's how experts currently think it went down:

Homo erectus left Africa in droves with a skull volume of roughly 600-700 cubic centimetres, knowledge of fire and rudimentary clothing and simple tools. Their upright walking and wearing of animal skins let them spread across all kinds of terrain that glaciers were just starting to retreat from, across Europe and Asia. At this time, Homo sapiens, who was taller and averaged roughly 1100-1300 cubic centimetres in skull size, was getting their shit together and interbreeding with homo erectus whenever the opportunity arose, kinky devils that they were. It seems that our ancestors were quite peaceful not only within their own species, but also with other sub-species of the same general type wherever they encountered them.

One theory holds that homo erectus gradually turned into homo sapiens across all their range, another that homo sapiens came out of africa and interbred with homo erectus populations as they came across them, and homo erectus either joined into or was displaced by the more sophisticated homo sapiens populations. Neanderthals disappeared and were too genetically dissimilar to join in with the homos' naughty reindeer games in ways that produced viable offspring.
At this point in their evolution, homo sapiens populations ceremonially buried their dead, made simple tools and fire, fished and built rafts and exchanged knowledge of their advances with homo erectus populations they came across. It would seem that they were pretty chill, but still nomadic. As for how cities, agriculture, domestication and the like started among them, part two of the series in on next week and I'll know more then...

Just thought I'd add this since the previous post I'd written on the topic was off in some pretty big ways. Odds are I'm still wrong, but this post is righter than the last one at least.

In direct response to OWS's last post, "Creating a stable running ecosystem that runs forever without colapsing, with billions of species all having perfect place within the food chain" ignores that the food chain changes regularly. One example; one day a bunch of this one species of woodpecker get tired of smashing their faces into trees to get bugs and start just eating the blackflies that settle on mooses'(meese's?) backs to suck the mooses' blood. They keep it up for a couple weeks before their digestive systems, unable to process some of the chemicals found in blackflies but not in termites and woodworms, explode due to the build-up of gases. So much for that idea, eh? Now, you can argue that those birds deviated from the diet the Creator intended for them and were duely punished, and I can say that the chemical compositions of the relative creatures involved determined the nature of their interaction, but when it comes down to it we're saying the same thing. The difference is you're seeing divine brilliance where I'm seeing simple happenstance. And that's just a matter of perspective.


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Don't worry, I'm wrong.

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Offlineslaphappy
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: Silversoul]
    #5794523 - 06/27/06 12:09 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

slaphappy said:
Letting numbers negate the existence of God is absurd.

Everyone knows God is just a word.



Who said I'm negating the existence of God? I'm just showing how flawed the guy's argument was.




So if I say that there are billions of posts and posters, and that the percentage of true posts are 0,1%, I can show you how flawed everything you say is?

Please explain to me how this logic works.


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The argent messenger of truth beyond truth, the antithesis of life, cruel and bleak as interstellar space, pulseless and frozen as absolute zero, dazzling with the frost of irrefragable logic and unforgettable fact.

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: slaphappy]
    #5794811 - 06/27/06 02:34 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

slaphappy said:
Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

slaphappy said:
Letting numbers negate the existence of God is absurd.

Everyone knows God is just a word.



Who said I'm negating the existence of God? I'm just showing how flawed the guy's argument was.




So if I say that there are billions of posts and posters, and that the percentage of true posts are 0,1%, I can show you how flawed everything you say is?

Please explain to me how this logic works.



WTF? You're not making any sense.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: Silversoul]
    #5795031 - 06/27/06 07:12 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

And this... surprises you? :shocked:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


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:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Registered: 01/01/05
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5795511 - 06/27/06 11:05 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

No, but it disappoints me.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Posts: 11,089
Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: Silversoul]
    #5795768 - 06/27/06 12:37 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

That is because you had unrealistic expectations.  :grin:  If you expect that everyone is going to make sense (or at least attempt to make sense), you will frequently be disappointed.

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: Silversoul]
    #5795902 - 06/27/06 01:39 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Fortunately Silversoul never disapoints.  :grin: I can always count on him. :sun: :heart: :thumbup:


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflinePanoramix
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: Icelander]
    #5871800 - 07/18/06 12:09 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I'm resurfacing this old thread out of the briny depths because BlackDragon999 was asking questions that seemed to be discussed a certain amount in this thread and I'm way too lazy to re-type the stuff I'd already typed about the nature and origin of god as a Creator.

I'm bringing this thread back the old-fashioned way rather than just putting a link to it in the thread in which the related questions were being asked because, frankly, I don't know how to do that.  I'm still amazed I figured out how to have an avatar...

:shake: Stop laughing at me! :ashamed:


--------------------
Don't worry, I'm wrong.

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Invisibleblackdragon999
Mason

Registered: 07/17/06
Posts: 202
Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: Panoramix]
    #5872037 - 07/18/06 01:29 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

thank you Panoramix, I have concluded that the basis of this topic is not to determine whether god "exists"... but to rationalize the theory that if god is "real"(not in subjective term of the word) but in the belief that he is the creator of all things and the prelude and conclusion. We try to draw a scetch of reality as a subliminal propertiy. And god being an object of that property.


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