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Panoramix
Getafix
Registered: 11/26/03
Posts: 634
Loc: Everywhere else
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
#5787224 - 06/24/06 06:35 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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"First of all, I really didn't have short gray large-eyed creatures in mind. I'd actually rather tie them to the "legion", rebels, lucifer etc..."
Sorry, meant no offense. I'm shamefully ignorant about such things.
"Like a giant drawing board, where children draw, and the drawings ask themselfs who drew the children? Nobody drew them, because they aren't drawn, they are born, and "born" is something the drawings can't even imagine"
Ooo, I dig that. Yeah, I'm not trying to claim that all of conciousness sprang from goo lumping together in ways that ended up self-replicating. But life, as we know it, which is to say the chemical interactions we term respiration and reproduction and those other fundemental life processes can be understood as lumpy goo getting lumpier of no particular accord at all, save perhaps it's own. I would say conciousness is present in all life, life can't not be concious on SOME level, but that conciousness can exist prior to and independently of life. Life makes an excellent vehicle for conciousness, allowing conciousness to absorb information and so conciousness likes to cling to it. Could conciousness have created life, and be that Creator? Ehh, I don't personally think so, that'd be like clouds creating cats to my mind. It lacks the means to strongly influence independent material reality, but it can give direction to organisms that would otherwise be occupied only with the tasks of growth and survival. Geez, that sounds like some particularly half-baked garbage, I'm gonna attach an extra disclaimer to this post...
I have seldom been more wrong
-------------------- Don't worry, I'm wrong.
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 5 months
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: Panoramix]
#5787267 - 06/24/06 06:54 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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I guess consciousness can be a good word to describe this source of life, but really we have gone into daydreaming here, which is nice, but we are trying to discuss the idea of creationism, and anything before the act of creation can only be daydreaming, because even religious texts begin with creation of life on earth, and speak nothing of what was before that. Probably because it is non of our concern, or at least wasn't back then. Religious books were ment as manuals for the carbon toys on earth, and manuals don't contain biographies of writers.
Also you mentioned genetic manipulations. I think if life on earth was created by someone, it would probably be made from scratch. If such a creator did exist, it probably had skill to take air, stones and water (a metaphore for elements in nature) and make a DNA like a ropemaker would tie a rope from dry plants. In other words, not like we make clones and genetic manipulations, but from scratch. You know, a machine where you imput the design, and from raw elements a molecule is sequenced from scratch. Like we today can use machines to write "happy birthday" with atoms using delicate sequencing.
Or maybe we are mechanical creations, only on such a sophisticated level that we don't percieve ourselfs as technology, but as something "natural" When you zoom into a human body, you have cells, fluids, pipes, pumps, electrical wires etc. Something like that could be manufactured if you had sophisticated tools. Imagine a washing machine with a fractal structure, so that when the paint gets scratched, the tiny parts can rearange themselfs to fix it, and can also gather resources from surroundings to make another washing machine.
Then the new washing machine wakes up, and doesn't see that it is actually a machine because its idea of technology is sharpening sticks.
-------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine
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Panoramix
Getafix
Registered: 11/26/03
Posts: 634
Loc: Everywhere else
Last seen: 11 years, 5 months
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
#5787384 - 06/24/06 07:43 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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"Then the new washing machine wakes up, and doesn't see that it is actually a machine because its idea of technology is sharpening sticks."
If the washing-machine 'wakes up' then it isn't a washing machine anymore at all, but rather a squarish-shaped bloke with a penchant for washing clothes in his abdomen. Particularly if it can nourish itself and make baby washing-machine blokes.
"because even religious texts begin with creation of life on earth, and speak nothing of what was before that"
So I take it the Bible isn't a religious text? Again, I paraphrase; "And God created the heavens and the earth, and it was good. THEN He made fishes in the seas and birds in skies and that was good too." I can't think of a single creation myth that starts with mortal life and then makes a place for them to be.
"Also you mentioned genetic manipulations." -OWS "aliens pouring some genetic material into the primordial ooze" -Me No genetic manipulation, there. I was talking about an external influence adding life or the building blocks that allowed for life to an environment devoid of life. The life had an external source and was added fully formed to a barren planet, in my postulation. I went one further than you in terms of Creation because I said the Creator was using sources from outside this world for life, but it doesn't much matter if the DNA was prefab or whipped up when the Creator got here from the materials at hand (the composition of life would suggest the latter inasmuch as it suggest either, though).
"...but really we have gone into daydreaming here, which is nice, but..."
...And that's why I do nothing else, my friend.
-------------------- Don't worry, I'm wrong.
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting
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Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 5 months
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: Panoramix]
#5787513 - 06/24/06 08:28 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
If the washing-machine 'wakes up' then it isn't a washing machine anymore at all, but rather a squarish-shaped bloke with a penchant for washing clothes in his abdomen. Particularly if it can nourish itself and make baby washing-machine blokes.
that's just a washing machine in you talking..
the complexity of a machine has not limits. One day we, humans will make machines that are aware of their own existence, that can reproduce, multiply, repair themselfs, regenerate etc. Your TV will morph shapes and heal when you scratch it, and it will make baby TV's for aditional price of upgrade so that you don't have to go into the store for another one. Can you think of one reason why we couldn't make such machines? One day our machines will feel even more alive and random and fractal than our bodies are.
And as for the Bible, I said before the act of creation, I ment creation of not just humans but all earth or whatever. Bible doesn't mention what was god doing before he created all that.
The way I see it, if this god did create life here, he also created the environment for it. Creating a stable running ecosystem that runs forever without colapsing, with billions of species all having perfect place within the food chain, and making them adoptable without any intervention is a work of genius. Just think about what kind of wast computing it requires, the same kind of computing would alow prediction of the future for thousands of years, which is also something we attribute to this god.
If we tried making something like that, it wouldn't last a month: the giraffe-beaver mutants would eat all other species and die of hungar.
-------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine
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Panoramix
Getafix
Registered: 11/26/03
Posts: 634
Loc: Everywhere else
Last seen: 11 years, 5 months
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
#5793768 - 06/26/06 08:19 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Um, I watched this extremely informative program about how Homo Erectus (giggle giggle) evolved into Homo Sapiens the other night on the Nature of Things (David Suzuki is brilliance made flesh) and I was totally wrong in my earlier post where I spectualted in an uninformed sort of way about that very topic at the behest of OWS, if I recall correctly. Here's how experts currently think it went down:
Homo erectus left Africa in droves with a skull volume of roughly 600-700 cubic centimetres, knowledge of fire and rudimentary clothing and simple tools. Their upright walking and wearing of animal skins let them spread across all kinds of terrain that glaciers were just starting to retreat from, across Europe and Asia. At this time, Homo sapiens, who was taller and averaged roughly 1100-1300 cubic centimetres in skull size, was getting their shit together and interbreeding with homo erectus whenever the opportunity arose, kinky devils that they were. It seems that our ancestors were quite peaceful not only within their own species, but also with other sub-species of the same general type wherever they encountered them.
One theory holds that homo erectus gradually turned into homo sapiens across all their range, another that homo sapiens came out of africa and interbred with homo erectus populations as they came across them, and homo erectus either joined into or was displaced by the more sophisticated homo sapiens populations. Neanderthals disappeared and were too genetically dissimilar to join in with the homos' naughty reindeer games in ways that produced viable offspring. At this point in their evolution, homo sapiens populations ceremonially buried their dead, made simple tools and fire, fished and built rafts and exchanged knowledge of their advances with homo erectus populations they came across. It would seem that they were pretty chill, but still nomadic. As for how cities, agriculture, domestication and the like started among them, part two of the series in on next week and I'll know more then...
Just thought I'd add this since the previous post I'd written on the topic was off in some pretty big ways. Odds are I'm still wrong, but this post is righter than the last one at least.
In direct response to OWS's last post, "Creating a stable running ecosystem that runs forever without colapsing, with billions of species all having perfect place within the food chain" ignores that the food chain changes regularly. One example; one day a bunch of this one species of woodpecker get tired of smashing their faces into trees to get bugs and start just eating the blackflies that settle on mooses'(meese's?) backs to suck the mooses' blood. They keep it up for a couple weeks before their digestive systems, unable to process some of the chemicals found in blackflies but not in termites and woodworms, explode due to the build-up of gases. So much for that idea, eh? Now, you can argue that those birds deviated from the diet the Creator intended for them and were duely punished, and I can say that the chemical compositions of the relative creatures involved determined the nature of their interaction, but when it comes down to it we're saying the same thing. The difference is you're seeing divine brilliance where I'm seeing simple happenstance. And that's just a matter of perspective.
-------------------- Don't worry, I'm wrong.
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slaphappy
Its just me
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Loc: Norway, Eidsvoll, Råholt...
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: Silversoul]
#5794523 - 06/27/06 12:09 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Silversoul said:
Quote:
slaphappy said: Letting numbers negate the existence of God is absurd.
Everyone knows God is just a word.
Who said I'm negating the existence of God? I'm just showing how flawed the guy's argument was.
So if I say that there are billions of posts and posters, and that the percentage of true posts are 0,1%, I can show you how flawed everything you say is?
Please explain to me how this logic works.
-------------------- The argent messenger of truth beyond truth, the antithesis of life, cruel and bleak as interstellar space, pulseless and frozen as absolute zero, dazzling with the frost of irrefragable logic and unforgettable fact.
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: slaphappy]
#5794811 - 06/27/06 02:34 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
slaphappy said:
Quote:
Silversoul said:
Quote:
slaphappy said: Letting numbers negate the existence of God is absurd.
Everyone knows God is just a word.
Who said I'm negating the existence of God? I'm just showing how flawed the guy's argument was.
So if I say that there are billions of posts and posters, and that the percentage of true posts are 0,1%, I can show you how flawed everything you say is?
Please explain to me how this logic works.
WTF? You're not making any sense.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: Silversoul]
#5795031 - 06/27/06 07:12 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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And this... surprises you?
Peace.
-------------------- If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: fireworks_god]
#5795511 - 06/27/06 11:05 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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No, but it disappoints me.
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: Silversoul]
#5795768 - 06/27/06 12:37 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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That is because you had unrealistic expectations. If you expect that everyone is going to make sense (or at least attempt to make sense), you will frequently be disappointed.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: Silversoul]
#5795902 - 06/27/06 01:39 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Fortunately Silversoul never disapoints. I can always count on him.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Panoramix
Getafix
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: Icelander]
#5871800 - 07/18/06 12:09 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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I'm resurfacing this old thread out of the briny depths because BlackDragon999 was asking questions that seemed to be discussed a certain amount in this thread and I'm way too lazy to re-type the stuff I'd already typed about the nature and origin of god as a Creator.
I'm bringing this thread back the old-fashioned way rather than just putting a link to it in the thread in which the related questions were being asked because, frankly, I don't know how to do that. I'm still amazed I figured out how to have an avatar...
Stop laughing at me!
-------------------- Don't worry, I'm wrong.
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blackdragon999
Mason
Registered: 07/17/06
Posts: 202
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: Panoramix]
#5872037 - 07/18/06 01:29 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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thank you Panoramix, I have concluded that the basis of this topic is not to determine whether god "exists"... but to rationalize the theory that if god is "real"(not in subjective term of the word) but in the belief that he is the creator of all things and the prelude and conclusion. We try to draw a scetch of reality as a subliminal propertiy. And god being an object of that property.
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