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OfflineMicrocosmatrix
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: Veritas]
    #5784114 - 06/23/06 03:03 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

With a sanity-back guarantee if not 100% satisfied!  :bouncysmoke:


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:orly:


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: Microcosmatrix]
    #5784119 - 06/23/06 03:06 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Eh, sanity is overrated.  :shrug:  Those who insist that they are sane seem to be the craziest of us all.

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OfflineMicrocosmatrix
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: Veritas]
    #5784135 - 06/23/06 03:18 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Sanity = the condition of the sheep

insanity = those who really are crazy

unsanity = the LSD user


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:orly:


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Offlinecapliberty
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: Veritas]
    #5784183 - 06/23/06 03:31 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

So everything exists because they can, and everything that doesn't exist is because they can't, inconclusive reasoning,

the "can" is the "why", I can be alot of different things, but will I, "does this explain why something does exist",

images and charateristics are abitrary are independent to environment

I can conceive of many different images working just fine in any echo system anywhere, because it can doesn't explain why these bioshperes exists in the manner they do

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: Microcosmatrix]
    #5784263 - 06/23/06 04:02 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Microcosmatrix said:
Sanity = the condition of the sheep





what does everyone have against sheep? They are such nice animals


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Offlinezeegos
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5784348 - 06/23/06 04:53 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Yea, when posting the word 'living' it was pretty vague. Conciousness is a better word.
Going into deep conversation like this creates frustration for me and i wish i could just find an answer. This makes death seem more interesting than just 'game over'. Death is an answer and death could be the begining of a whole new journey.
Another point i would also like to discuss is, if we can be born once, surely we can be born again. I have had thoughts and philosophical nights thinking about reincarnation.

Heres what im simply thinking:

• Before you are born, you don’t exist
• After you die you don’t exist
• Why should living a life prevent you from living another after you die?

I just think that the befor life and after life you are in the same position and having lived a life wount prevent being born again.

what do yous reckon?

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OfflinePanoramix
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: capliberty]
    #5784381 - 06/23/06 05:07 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

You ignored the part where my dog gets embarassed when she realizes she's being watched. Why would she feel the embarassment if not because she KNEW she was acting foolishly, and was in fact doing it because it was fun and frivolous, she was engaging in leisure activity, fun for it's own sake. I don't know why you think I dog trying to beat a car across the road is evidence of it's lack of understanding about physics. I'm sure you've made some bad calls in your time. Dogs can do differential calculus in their heads fast enough to catch a ball in flight with their mouths. It may not be calculating any numbers when it catches the ball, but I think that only makes the feat more impressive.

"...weather conditions conceived a tiger molecule or an elephant molecule, that their image is an exact extrapolate of their conditions, when the conditions are exactly the same, what dictates cause n effect then, how come so many variety exist from simple one cell molecule..."

I mean, you're pretty quick to knock dogs' intelligence, but no one is taking from your OBVIOUS lack of understanding of even the most simple chemistry or biology that you aren't a concious individual. There is no tiger molecule or dog molecule or person molecule, there are a staggering abundance of different molecules in even the simplest one-cell organism, and many(most) of the molecules found in the simplest life forms are also present in the most complex ones. If you meant tiger DNA or elephant DNA and bacteria DNA (the set of molecules most distinctive of their respective organisms) I think you'll find that they have largely the same composition, elephant and tiger DNA just codes for far more information than bacteria DNA, allowing greater variety of protein structures to be available in the composition of the more complex animals. In terms of genetic differences, that's it that's all. So when you take into consideration that all the animals are made out of essentially the same stuff, just arranged in different ways, maybe it'll clear up how such diversity is possible in spite of the similar conditions they all exist in.

"one animal having supreme mental faculties, not two, why just humans, because apes were given intellectual capacity to evolve, what environmental factor dictated this capacity early within monkeys, why not their hybrid counter parts"

Umm, the definition of a species is that it can produce viable offspring with and only with members of it's own species. Wolves + coyotes = viable offspring, they are sub-species of the same larger species, donkeys + horses = mules, non-viable offspring, so we can be sure that they are in fact different species. So as to why there was no hybrid quasi-human, quasi-apeman hybrid, well maybe proto-humans were getting it on with neanderthals, but no viable offspring resulted. They were too genetically dissimilar to be considered members of the same species. As for why humans developped a 'distinct intelligence', they didn't. They developped distinct ways of exploiting that intelligence.

And I'm going to have a hard time not coming off as a dick on this, but kindly seperate different trains of thought into different sentences rather than just writing one super-giant run-on sentence. You'll find people have an easier time following you if you do.


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Don't worry, I'm wrong.

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Offlinecapliberty
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: Panoramix]
    #5784538 - 06/23/06 05:59 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

when argue evolution over divine intervention you can beat dead dog to ground but as you think that your evolution theory holds and is an adequate absolute explanation to creation and existence, and I'm not saying its not aleast a partial explanation, their is evidence to suggest evolution explains existence, their is no evidence it to explain creation, because the right environmental factors are in balance does not dictate image or characteristic, image and characteristic are totally independent from a creation standpoint, for all I know purple people with 3 eyes could be suited specimens for earth, and their could be a genetically created being suited to the planet of ur anus, so with that said believe whatever you want

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Invisibledblaney
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: capliberty]
    #5784596 - 06/23/06 06:34 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

because the right environmental factors are in balance does not dictate image or characteristic

I think a better way of putting it would be: image and characteristic are determined by the presence of certain environmental factors.

'There's evidence' ( :wink: ) to indicate that living creatures have DNA: a genetic code. Which genes are expressed is determined by the presence or lack thereof of certain environmental factors.

So then you ask "Why is the genetic code the way it is?" "What is the origin of DNA?" Well, that's a damn good question so I'm gonna go post it in the science and technology board :grin:.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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OfflinePanoramix
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: capliberty]
    #5784673 - 06/23/06 07:04 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

"There is evidence to suggest evolution explains existence, their is no evidence it to explain creation"

Absolutely, yes.  There's no explaining Creation in a way that doesn't assume the existance of a Creator being/force.  But I would argue that existance is as excellent a piece of proof against Creation from my perspective as it is for Creation from your perspective (hope you don't mind my speaking for you there, that seems to be the view you're expressing though).  I would maintain that because there's something, there could never be nothing, or more precisely, there could never be ONLY nothing.  But the only way there could concievably be nothing would be if there was just plain nothing, on account of nothing existing at the same time as something else can't really be termed nothing in the actual sense of the word.  'Well,' you may be asking, 'why could there never be only nothing?  That's the only nothing there could be!'  Maybe you aren't asking that at all, I'm just trying to extrapolate from your posts what you might be inclined to say, feel free to set me straight if I'm not being fair to your views.  Anyhoo, there couldn't be nothing-and-nothing-but from a strictly rational, physics-y tack because nothing's created or destroyed, it just changes form.  'Yes, well that's what would make a Creator a Creator, jackass', you might be inclined to reply.  If Creators were subject to the laws of physics they wouldn't be very special, now would they?  So the only way to argue this is outside the realm of beliefs we like to call Science.  I would argue, from a strictly spiritual perspective (which is what this forum's all about, I suppose) that as soon as you decide to recognize the existance of any given thing, you're stuck with that thing, or at least it's Creator, as far back the timeline you may care to go.  Did this Creator pop into existance spontaneiously out of absolute nothingness?  Well, naturally.  What could create a Creator?  Well, there was nothing, then there stopped being nothing and was a Something so not-nothing that it could generate all the things it could care to out of nothing, which would be fortunate, 'cause that's all the Creator would have to work with at first.  So then by what mechanism would the Creator have come into existance?  Couldn't have created itself, as a Creator would still have to be before he could be creative.  If the Creator was the first thing and aside from it there was not a thing at all, then the Creator would have to have risen out of nothing, and nothing can't be without implying something else.  So if nothing comes first and mandates a something by it's very existance, and THEN you have a Creator, what you have is actually a Creator that was, in fact, beat to the act of Creation by it's own sudden entrance into reality.  And if nothing made the Creator, doesn't that make nothing the Greater Creator?

Hee hee, that rhymes!  Greater Creator!  I crack me up. :uptosomething: :biggrin: :tongue2: :uptosomething:


--------------------
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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: Panoramix]
    #5784681 - 06/23/06 07:10 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Creationism suggests origins of life on earth, not origins of universe.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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OfflinePanoramix
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5784704 - 06/23/06 07:23 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

So you're saying there could be a Creator god who created the Earth, but just the Earth and not the rest of existance? I'd call such a fella a Planet-Builder and Life-Giver, not a genuine Creator.


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OfflineMicrocosmatrix
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: Panoramix]
    #5784729 - 06/23/06 07:31 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Whenever there's threads about God and I see posts like:

Quote:

Absolutely, yes. There's no explaining Creation in a way that doesn't assume the existance of a Creator being/force. But I would argue that existance is as excellent a piece of proof against Creation from my perspective as it is for Creation from your perspective (hope you don't mind my speaking for you there, that seems to be the view you're expressing though). I would maintain that because there's something, there could never be nothing, or more precisely, there could never be ONLY nothing. But the only way there could concievably be nothing would be if there was just plain nothing, on account of nothing existing at the same time as something else can't really be termed nothing in the actual sense of the word. 'Well,' you may be asking, 'why could there never be only nothing? That's the only nothing there could be!' Maybe you aren't asking that at all, I'm just trying to extrapolate from your posts what you might be inclined to say, feel free to set me straight if I'm not being fair to your views. Anyhoo, there couldn't be nothing-and-nothing-but from a strictly rational, physics-y tack because nothing's created or destroyed, it just changes form. 'Yes, well that's what would make a Creator a Creator, jackass', you might be inclined to reply. If Creators were subject to the laws of physics they wouldn't be very special, now would they? So the only way to argue this is outside the realm of beliefs we like to call Science. I would argue, from a strictly spiritual perspective (which is what this forum's all about, I suppose) that as soon as you decide to recognize the existance of any given thing, you're stuck with that thing, or at least it's Creator, as far back the timeline you may care to go. Did this Creator pop into existance spontaneiously out of absolute nothingness? Well, naturally. What could create a Creator? Well, there was nothing, then there stopped being nothing and was a Something so not-nothing that it could generate all the things it could care to out of nothing, which would be fortunate, 'cause that's all the Creator would have to work with at first. So then by what mechanism would the Creator have come into existance? Couldn't have created itself, as a Creator would still have to be before he could be creative. If the Creator was the first thing and aside from it there was not a thing at all, then the Creator would have to have risen out of nothing, and nothing can't be without implying something else. So if nothing comes first and mandates a something by it's very existance, and THEN you have a Creator, what you have is actually a Creator that was, in fact, beat to the act of Creation by it's own sudden entrance into reality. And if nothing made the Creator, doesn't that make nothing the Greater Creator?




I'm just like WTF, all that typing for such a simple concept. That there might be an intelligent designer to life. You can't break this shit down with science or logic, it doesn't lend itself to it. We are not the creators, so we can not nail it down with our limited mental capacities.  :stoned:


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:orly:


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: Panoramix]
    #5784747 - 06/23/06 07:36 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Panoramix said:
So you're saying there could be a Creator god who created the Earth, but just the Earth and not the rest of existance? I'd call such a fella a Planet-Builder and Life-Giver, not a genuine Creator.




Call it what you like, but Creationism is oposition to Evolution, both are ideas regarding creation and development of life on earth.

The idea behind evolution is that life was created by chance in certain conditions. The idea behind creationism is that all species were created separatly by a third party.
It has nothing to do with stars planets and galaxies, but with species of earth and their environment.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: Microcosmatrix]
    #5784755 - 06/23/06 07:38 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Microcosmatrix said:
Whenever there's threads about God and I see posts like:

Quote:

Absolutely, yes. There's no explaining Creation in a way that doesn't assume the existance of a Creator being/force. But I would argue that existance is as excellent a piece of proof against Creation from my perspective as it is for Creation from your perspective (hope you don't mind my speaking for you there, that seems to be the view you're expressing though). I would maintain that because there's something, there could never be nothing, or more precisely, there could never be ONLY nothing. But the only way there could concievably be nothing would be if there was just plain nothing, on account of nothing existing at the same time as something else can't really be termed nothing in the actual sense of the word. 'Well,' you may be asking, 'why could there never be only nothing? That's the only nothing there could be!' Maybe you aren't asking that at all, I'm just trying to extrapolate from your posts what you might be inclined to say, feel free to set me straight if I'm not being fair to your views. Anyhoo, there couldn't be nothing-and-nothing-but from a strictly rational, physics-y tack because nothing's created or destroyed, it just changes form. 'Yes, well that's what would make a Creator a Creator, jackass', you might be inclined to reply. If Creators were subject to the laws of physics they wouldn't be very special, now would they? So the only way to argue this is outside the realm of beliefs we like to call Science. I would argue, from a strictly spiritual perspective (which is what this forum's all about, I suppose) that as soon as you decide to recognize the existance of any given thing, you're stuck with that thing, or at least it's Creator, as far back the timeline you may care to go. Did this Creator pop into existance spontaneiously out of absolute nothingness? Well, naturally. What could create a Creator? Well, there was nothing, then there stopped being nothing and was a Something so not-nothing that it could generate all the things it could care to out of nothing, which would be fortunate, 'cause that's all the Creator would have to work with at first. So then by what mechanism would the Creator have come into existance? Couldn't have created itself, as a Creator would still have to be before he could be creative. If the Creator was the first thing and aside from it there was not a thing at all, then the Creator would have to have risen out of nothing, and nothing can't be without implying something else. So if nothing comes first and mandates a something by it's very existance, and THEN you have a Creator, what you have is actually a Creator that was, in fact, beat to the act of Creation by it's own sudden entrance into reality. And if nothing made the Creator, doesn't that make nothing the Greater Creator?




I'm just like WTF, all that typing for such a simple concept. That there might be an intelligent designer to life. You can't break this shit down with science or logic, it doesn't lend itself to it. We are not the creators, so we can not nail it down with our limited mental capacities.  :stoned:




If we are not creators, then who created the computer you are typing on? Once it was dust and minerals, and now it is a machine so complex, almost as complex as primitive lifeforms


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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OfflinePanoramix
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: Microcosmatrix]
    #5784756 - 06/23/06 07:38 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Well, yeah, but I need to work on my typing skillz, see?

Plus he insulted my dog's intelligence... :smirk:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: Panoramix]
    #5784906 - 06/23/06 08:28 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Panoramix said:
You ignored the part where my dog gets embarassed when she realizes she's being watched.  Why would she feel the embarassment if not because she KNEW she was acting foolishly, and was in fact doing it because it was fun and frivolous, she was engaging in leisure activity, fun for it's own sake.  I don't know why you think I dog trying to beat a car across the road is evidence of it's lack of understanding about physics.  I'm sure you've made some bad calls in your time.  Dogs can do differential calculus in their heads fast enough to catch a ball in flight with their mouths.  It may not be calculating any numbers when it catches the ball, but I think that only makes the feat more impressive.




:eek:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: capliberty]
    #5786604 - 06/24/06 01:27 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

capliberty said:
So everything exists because they can, and everything that doesn't exist is because they can't, inconclusive reasoning,

the "can" is the "why", I can be alot of different things, but will I, "does this explain why something does exist",

images and charateristics are abitrary are independent to environment

I can conceive of many different images working just fine in any echo system anywhere, because it can doesn't explain why these bioshperes exists in the manner they do




Yes, actually, it does. Life exists because it can. It takes particular forms because genetic mutations occur. If those forms are successful (pass on their DNA), that mutation persists. If the mutation is not passed on to another generation, it does not persist.

There may be other forms which potentially could survive in our particular environment, but those mutations have not been presented for testing as yet. At some point they may be, and will be subjected to the same rule: can they survive to pass on their particular code?

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OfflinePanoramix
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5787120 - 06/24/06 05:59 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

"Call it what you like, but Creationism is oposition to Evolution, both are ideas regarding creation and development of life on earth... It has nothing to do with stars planets and galaxies, but with species of earth and their environment." --OldWoodSpectre

Okay, so let's say that by 'CREATOR(god)' what was in fact meant was an external influence responsible for life's beginning on Earth, but who had nothing to do with the creation of anything else. Well, that would be inarguably true, I doubt that even the most adamant and hardline materialist could deny that the sun was fairly directly responsible for the conditions that allowed the formation of the first simple amino-acid chains. So let's say that's a given and that by external third-party influences we mean something more along the lines of short, pale big-eyed aliens pouring some genetic material into the primordial ooze, some sort of concious and deliberate intervention that allowed life to arise on Earth. Well, if it's responsible for life on Earth but not the existance of the cosmos, then what created it? Did it spontaniously spring out of nothing on it's planet or in it's plane of existance, or would it have needed an external influencer as well? If IT could have been life generated out of lifelessness, then why is it so inconcievable that we might have done the same? And if it required a Creator of it's own, then it was in fact that Creator that created us, it just did it by proxy.


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Don't worry, I'm wrong.

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: Panoramix]
    #5787168 - 06/24/06 06:15 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Panoramix said:
"Call it what you like, but Creationism is oposition to Evolution, both are ideas regarding creation and development of life on earth... It has nothing to do with stars planets and galaxies, but with species of earth and their environment." --OldWoodSpectre

Okay, so let's say that by 'CREATOR(god)' what was in fact meant was an external influence responsible for life's beginning on Earth, but who had nothing to do with the creation of anything else. Well, that would be inarguably true, I doubt that even the most adamant and hardline materialist could deny that the sun was fairly directly responsible for the conditions that allowed the formation of the first simple amino-acid chains. So let's say that's a given and that by external third-party influences we mean something more along the lines of short, pale big-eyed aliens pouring some genetic material into the primordial ooze, some sort of concious and deliberate intervention that allowed life to arise on Earth. Well, if it's responsible for life on Earth but not the existance of the cosmos, then what created it? Did it spontaniously spring out of nothing on it's planet or in it's plane of existance, or would it have needed an external influencer as well? If IT could have been life generated out of lifelessness, then why is it so inconcievable that we might have done the same? And if it required a Creator of it's own, then it was in fact that Creator that created us, it just did it by proxy.




That's an interesting question.

First of all, I really didn't have short gray large-eyed creatures in mind. I'd actually rather tie them to the "legion", rebels, lucifer etc. But let's not go into religion, let's stick to this idea of creationism..

If life created life, where did the first life come from?

The answer to that question would be in the ultimate knowledge about the structure of the universe.
If these gods exist, then universe is a little different than we though. Maybe life is one of essential properties of the universe.
Maybe life as we know it is only an expression of a different dimension of life, only a projection of some lifeforce we all contain within?
Like a giant drawing board, where children draw, and the drawings ask themselfs who drew the children?
Nobody drew them, because they aren't drawn, they are born, and "born" is something the drawings can't even imagine

I guess what I'm trying to say with this metaphore is: maybe life is something much greater than we can understand at this point and maybe we are asking the wrong question here:
If we are drawn, who drew then drawers?
Nobody, they are an expression of some process that is outside our level of understanding and imagination (like birth is to these drawings)


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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