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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: Basilides]
#5783321 - 06/23/06 09:47 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Basilides said: Way to NOT GET THE JOKE Icelander.
You think I wasn't joking? That's why I said you must be joking. I think your posts are great.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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dblaney
Human Being
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Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: capliberty]
#5783331 - 06/23/06 09:55 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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you need a egg and sperm to conjoin, after that then the two propagates and we evolve into human beings, but without the triggering of the two a human is none existent,
Right! For something to arise, the necessary causes and conditions must be in place.
you still need something to trigger the chain reaction
Alright, but such a trigger is itself an effect of various causes and depends upon many conditions for ist appearance. I completely disagree with Aquinas, there is no such thing as a 'first cause', as that would go against EVERYTHING that is observable. Nothing arises of its own accord...it depends on causes and conditions. The only logical conclusion is that the appearance of cause and effect is beginningless.
what evolutionists overlook is the fact of the first existing elements and molecules to trigger the chain reaction of creation, you can easily explain its creation after assuming its introduced but how was it introduced is the question,
Well if you go back far enough cosmologically you will find that the elements haven't always existed. The current Big Bang theory proposes that during the first few moments of our universe, matter was so super-dense that it took a bit of time for it to expand and evolve enough for the elements to become present. In other words, the necessary causes and conditions had to be in place for the elements to arise.
reality can't explain itself, that things were made by accident, reality creates reality only up to certain point, things have to be made into existence, for them to exist
I imagine you're right, if you were to somehow ask reality why it is so, it would have no idea. Things are not made by accident though. The very word accident means something unintentional, but intent is something that is limited to the human mind (at least as far as I know). Reality didn't intend to unfold in the manner in which it has, it simply did and is.
I'm not too sure what you mean by 'made into existence'. Things arise when the necessary causes and conditions are in place, but that's it. Things don't simply materialize out of the void: you don't see unicorns suddenly appearing in the middle of a highway; you don't see monkeys falling from the sky. If things did simply appear of their own accord then there would be no cause and effect and anything could happen. You could plant a marijuana seed and an office building could sprout.
-------------------- "What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?" "Belief is a beautiful armor But makes for the heaviest sword" - John Mayer Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin. "This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: slaphappy]
#5783490 - 06/23/06 11:09 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
slaphappy said: Letting numbers negate the existence of God is absurd.
Everyone knows God is just a word.
Who said I'm negating the existence of God? I'm just showing how flawed the guy's argument was.
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zeegos
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: Silversoul]
#5783518 - 06/23/06 11:23 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Heres one for you. Everything that exists is either mass or energy. These are two things can be described as non living. e.g a rock, a spoon, a gust of wind, light. If we cut down to what we consist of, you will see we are justa mass of particles and energy. How can we be alive and have the ability to think and feel emotion? You may say, well were made of cells and cartilage and what not, all arranged to function like we do. Well these cells and body materials are all made up of carbons, oxygens and even further, protons, electrons, neutrons and what not. If you cut it down that far, how can every non-living that existed from the big bang create living materials and beings as advanced as we are? What im simply saying is, how can something non-living 'create' something living?
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dblaney
Human Being
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Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: zeegos]
#5783541 - 06/23/06 11:33 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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What im simply saying is, how can something non-living 'create' something living?
The right causes and conditions.
-------------------- "What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?" "Belief is a beautiful armor But makes for the heaviest sword" - John Mayer Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin. "This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: zeegos]
#5783544 - 06/23/06 11:34 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Interesting. Maybe living and non-living aren't real distinctions. Energy may be more the matter. (Pun intended)
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: zeegos]
#5783580 - 06/23/06 11:49 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Living things are made from organic compounds. Under the conditions of early Earth, organic compounds managed to group together to form the first cells. Eventually, single-celled organisms gave way to superorganisms, from which came the first multi-celled organisms. That's how life came from non-life. How consciousness arises, however, seems to be a greater mystery.
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capliberty
Stranger
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: zeegos]
#5783591 - 06/23/06 11:53 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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You may say, well were made of cells and cartilage and what not, all arranged to function like we do. Well these cells and body materials are all made up of carbons, oxygens and even further, protons, Quote:
electrons, neutrons and what not. If you cut it down that far, how can every non-living that existed from the big bang create living materials and beings as advanced as we are? What I'm simply saying is, how can something non-living 'create' something living?
I kind of arguing the same point about creation and existence but how can one define living, living and not living is not definitive, its not an "either or situation", life is a relative term, what constitutes something living, trees live, but do they express emotions, have a conscious, so in what form do they live, other than just purl existing, I've noticed in animals, that their conscious level is just merely a simple program, they act and behave like their program, so to me they kind of resemble robots, or natural machines, there not aware of their simple existence and basically react to whatever happens to them, simple cause n effect, we are more alive based on consciousness, we are aware of our existence, we can manipulate our environment to transcend natural laws that are obvious,
but as conscious as we are, we can be looked as mere piss ants without a dam clue when observing history, we basically act and react like any other animal, in a sense we're robots in our own right because our consciousness is still limited, to me being alive is based on consciousness, because the truth is if your no longer consciously aware of anything you don't exist, you may exist but it matters not if your not conscious of it, so their would be no you to tie into your existence, and it works vice versa, the more consciously aware you are the more alive you are, like higher forms of intelligence transcend into a spiritual state, could be because they transcend mortal boundaries,
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hoopershroomer
Bonafide Oneironaut
Registered: 03/30/06
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: capliberty]
#5783663 - 06/23/06 12:19 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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the responses im getting for this post is everything i wanted, hoped and wished for, plus way more. you all are extremely intelligent and its very enlightening and mind expanding to read all of your great responses. please continue...
-------------------- "Life lived in the absence of the psychedelic experience that primordial shamanism is based on is life trivialized, life denied, life enslaved to the ego." "You teach the world how to treat you, by showing the world how you treat yourself." A well developed sense of humor is far superior to any religion" "Everything you could want and could be, you already have and are." &
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capliberty
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: capliberty]
#5783682 - 06/23/06 12:31 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Things are not made by accident though. The very word accident means something unintentional, but intent is something that is limited to the human mind (at least as far as I know). Reality didn't intend to unfold in the manner in which it has, it simply did and is.
when I say accident I mean by chance, sense your assuming that reality or the cosmos had no consciousness of what its was doing, then creation was made by chance on earth because all the elemental conditions were in balance, you can look at all the other planets and see that it takes a strict level of the right conditions to make life occur, the odds are like probably a thousand to 1 for planets to create the right conditions for life form to exist.
OK lets take it even to smaller level, how does these elements organize themselves into these organisms that eventually become rats, dogs, cats, cow, horses and billion other types of animals, and humans, how did it know to obtain these intrinsic properties that eventually create a huge elephants, how was the law of cause n effect to know how to organize itself into most complex, breathing, thinking machines, what guided these simple one cell organisms into creating large masses with complex structures, how did it distinguish its proprieties, into making different bodies for different animals, how mother nature get these ideas to propagate itself into the distinct images with these distinct characteristics, you can simple state cause n effect but you can't explain the nature of cause n effect, I'd say mother nature has one dam good imagination,
Edited by capliberty (06/23/06 12:34 PM)
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Panoramix
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: capliberty]
#5783721 - 06/23/06 12:52 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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"I've noticed in animals, that their conscious level is just merely a simple program, they act and behave like their program, so to me they kind of resemble robots, or natural machines, there not aware of their simple existence and basically react to whatever happens to them"
Why does my dog chase her tail for no readily apparent reason? What in her programming would account for her trying to walk around with it in her mouth when she does manage to catch it, though it invariably causes her to fall on her ass? And why does she get embarassed and stop when she notices she's being observed? Stupidity is not something you find in robots, and it's abundant in animals. And I've never seen a tree do anything to convince me it didn't know EXACTLY what's going on. If I were a tree and were in posession of the mental faculties I currently have, I'd do the exact same thing they do.
-------------------- Don't worry, I'm wrong.
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capliberty
Stranger
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: Panoramix]
#5783750 - 06/23/06 01:08 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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You would do all the things that you listed as being a dog or a tree because its within their programming, but do alot of dogs know simple physics, when a large mass like a car comes by not to run in front of it, I've noticed that cats seemed to grasp this concept a little quicker, these are two distinctions of the mass populations of cats and dogs, its within their programming to be stupid and chase there tail, in their feeble mind, their tail represents a moving object to chase after, shoot the tail could be alive, it could be a snake, who knows why their chasing it. Thats what makes them so entertaining because their premeditative and honestly oblivious to there actions, up to a fault. They know nothing why their doing what their do, I guess dog intelligence stems off more from doing then thinking.
Edited by capliberty (06/23/06 01:11 PM)
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dblaney
Human Being
Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: capliberty]
#5783935 - 06/23/06 01:58 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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how was the law of cause n effect to know how to organize itself into most complex, breathing, thinking machines,
It doesn't know. The law of cause and effect is not some entity, it's the way apparent reality behaves. It doesn't think to itself "Well today I'm going to arrange the universe so that the Patriots win the Superbowl." If certain causes and conditions are present, then a certain effect will arise. If other causes and conditions are present, then a different effect will arise. Consciousness arose because of the necessary causes and conditions. If the necessary causes and conditions for consciousness weren't in place, then consciousness wouldn't have arisen, and something else might have instead. You see this everyday. When the conditions for consciousness deteriorate (eg someone's body ages) past a certain point, consciousness ceases and the person 'dies'.
-------------------- "What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?" "Belief is a beautiful armor But makes for the heaviest sword" - John Mayer Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin. "This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
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capliberty
Stranger
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: dblaney]
#5784023 - 06/23/06 02:28 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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If certain causes and conditions are present, then a certain effect will arise
all these natural conditions dictated the varieties of species of different animals, a billion different species of animals were conceived because of the right conditions, that some how the sun, the water, the environmental factors guided the different elements and molecules into being a certain image with certain characteristics, and it made a clear distinction with one animal having supreme mental faculties, not two, why just humans, because apes were given intellectual capacity to evolve, what environmental factor dictated this capacity early within monkeys, why not their hybrid counter parts, some how the earth and weather conditions conceived a tiger molecule or an elephant molecule, that their image is an exact extrapolate of their conditions, when the conditions are exactly the same, what dictates cause n effect then, how come so many variety exist from simple one cell molecule, to me it would seem only varied amount of characteristics would be interwoven in biology of the animals in that area, but you still get high level of discrepancies and variations of animals in the same environment, when I say "how did it know" I mean how did it distinguish itself from the rest when all conditions are similar to make a perfectly unique animal image, how was it able to conceive such variations and intricacies, to me something had to give this process a conscious path, causes and conditions is to ambiguous of a statement for me as an adequate explanation for the many different variety of life that exists, beside evolution is still a partial theory that doesn't not explain everything,
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: capliberty]
#5784044 - 06/23/06 02:37 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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We exist, in the particular form and function we have evolved into, because we can. This has been true of all permutations of life. Any possible permutations which can survive, do. The particular forms which can be successful in this environment are the forms we see around us. All other possibilities have not survived.
The planets, including ours, the moons and stars, our precious and unique biosphere, all exist because they can. They have not been destroyed and returned to chaos from order. Everything else which has existed, which has emerged from chaos into order, has been destroyed.
And it goes on...
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Microcosmatrix
Spiral staircasetechnician
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: hoopershroomer]
#5784069 - 06/23/06 02:46 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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There is a God because I created him myself
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dblaney
Human Being
Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: capliberty]
#5784071 - 06/23/06 02:46 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Genetic mutations allow for the variations of which you speak. Certain causes and conditions led to mutations which over time evolved into what we now know as 'intelligence'.
-------------------- "What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?" "Belief is a beautiful armor But makes for the heaviest sword" - John Mayer Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin. "This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: Microcosmatrix]
#5784081 - 06/23/06 02:49 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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I tried that once. It was a mail-order kit...kinda like Sea Monkeys? Very disappointing. I added faith, worship, persecution of non-believers, and self-denial, then waited six days. Nothing.
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Microcosmatrix
Spiral staircasetechnician
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: Veritas]
#5784101 - 06/23/06 02:58 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Just take LSD and turn yourself into your own god!
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: i know now, there truly has to be a CREATOR(god) [Re: Microcosmatrix]
#5784106 - 06/23/06 03:00 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Sounds like an advertisement:
"Instant divinity--just add acid!"
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