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Member of myCult Registered: 11/05/05 Posts: 323 Loc: The Present Last seen: 13 years, 6 months |
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I was deeply pained by this incident that occurred Father's day morning. That I day I decided to tag along with my dad (just to see myself as a good son, surely)to be a good kid. I figured I might just appreciate some good principles from a very large(1,000 to 1,500) church. Many ears are expecting to her the "Truth" from their spiritual leader. And while he spoke on gay marriage I heard him say something, "... and these open-minded people are destroying the sanctity of marriage...". At that moment, in front of thousands of waitful ears, he demonized open-mindedness. He deceived thousands of people. He destroyed the growth and free-thinking of thousands individuals. I wanted to scream out and tell this man he spoke all the Evil of this world. I needed to help these helpless people. But my father was there, and he would believe I had shamed him, so I did not act. Instead I thought these people do not follow Christ. Christ was the free-thinker and lover of ALL.
-------------------- Trust thyself.
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I Tell You What! Registered: 06/24/05 Posts: 5,998 Last seen: 8 years, 9 months |
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you really should have stood up against him publiclly, but in a loving way.
i understand not shaming your father though but people have to learn. for him it might mean that he never accepts gays but he could at least learn a bit from you, eh? see the thing is, I think gays who get married love each other more than straights who get married..... and this is why. Gays are so damn PERSECUTED that if they truely wanted to get married, that takes some balls (or vaginas) so unless they are doing it to just be rebellious, their love must be a lot stronger than some white-bred hill-brethren who go out in high school and get married when they are 18 and have a dysfunctional relatoinship. more than half of marriages end in divorce, okay? Straight people, you are messing it up. I wonder how many gay marriages end in divorce? I bet not nearly as many. Oh and okay, why don't you point a finger at the celebrities? They have destroyed the sanctity of marriage..... ahh and what about the movies, and the soap operas? IMO gays that get married probably have a more wholesome and loving relatoinship than a lot of other people that get married. FUCK YOU ME - ME S!!! People need to think before they speak. "In my opinion homosexuality is disgusting" NO THAT CANNOT POSSIBLY BE YOUR OPINION... it is 100% impossible for it to be your opinion, because you inherited it from your bigoted society. You don't think it, they do. Or like the whole stupid addage "Well I think that as long as I am not doing anything wrong, it's okay for them to spy on me." NO YOU DON'T THINK THAT . There is no think about it. This is GROUPTHINK..... I wouldn't be surprised if this kind of groupthink is faciliated by the media and people suddenly get it into their heads that this is "their" idea somehow. Or "Marijuana is so addictive....." Yes, speak boldly, loudly, and deftly about that which you know not!!!!!! Trumpet the sky with the mighty cries of the ignorant masses. He who speaks knows not.... eh? Ever think about that one? Maybe I don't know anything either.... I spend a ton of time thinking about what I may not know, though. Battle cry of stupidity....... sad state of affairs in America. Everyone is so damned opinionated, and all their opinions are basically drawn out of a hat........ they usher you in "hey you're a conservative..... this is what you are supposed to think." blah blah blah blah. I think our church (and I live in the Bible Belt) actually did a lesbian or gay marriage once though! Which says something since they aren't legal in my state..... in fact were just banned by 70% of the sleeping population.... sleep walk into the polls and vote for tyranny....... yes... God Bless America. God Bless America...... land of the FREE...... as long as you're sleepy. ---------------------- I mean basically....... just get along with everyone. Mind your own business. Don't discriminate. Follow the golden rule..... your Bible spells it out as this "Do to others what you would have them do to you." I don't see how it's so hard. Religious people, there are bigger threats in this nation than peaceful loving sissy men with poodles. -------------------- ....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human...... Edited by leery11 (06/22/06 01:23 AM)
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irregular verb Registered: 04/08/04 Posts: 37,534 |
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america is paralyzed this way and is sinking into stupidity with loss of social freedoms, justice becomes a mockery and democracy a sham.
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I Tell You What! Registered: 06/24/05 Posts: 5,998 Last seen: 8 years, 9 months |
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yeah but so many people are waking up though. especially the rebellious youth.
-------------------- ....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
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waiting ![]() Registered: 02/01/05 Posts: 4,033 Loc: mountains and la Last seen: 17 years, 3 months |
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Look at it from another perspective.
Supose that there is a powerfull force that made humanity for a certain purpuse and conditioned their existence on their choice of behaviour. You as this force, tell them what you did, how you made them, and what you expect of them as your creations, your toys. And in thousands of years suddenly start being open minded, thinking about other theories of their origin, other ways to behave, other than that way you expect of them etc. In that case being open minded is destructive for them, because they are going further away from the truth, and they no longer believe that you made them, and on these wrong premises they can no longer serve the purpuse you made them for. So you decide to replace them with non-faulty versions and remove them from the face of the earth and put others. You don't owe them anything, because their consciousness is your product, and their consciousness is not something so sacred to you as it is to them, because it is very trivial from your point of view, a very trivial phenomenon like wind. Has open mindedness helped them? No because they were given the truth and they rejected it. I'm not suggesting any of this is true, it's a dogma after all but my point is, wheather being open-minded is a positive or negative thing for human race depends on the premise, and the premise is wheather all of the above is true or not. -------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine Edited by OldWoodSpecter (06/22/06 04:46 AM)
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Human Being ![]() Registered: 10/03/04 Posts: 7,894 Loc: Here & Now |
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and the premise is wheather all of the above is true or not.
Okay the principle part of the above is that there is "a powerfull force that made humanity". Let's consider this premise logically. If there is a force that is inherently existent, independent of everything, existing eternally of itself, then how does it exist in relation to this phenomenal world? Since this is a force and not a sentient being capable of choice, the only possibility is that the nature of the force is to have universes arise, abide, and cease, without beginning and without end. The phenomenal world could exist either indepedently of or dependently upon the force. If it was independent, then it would bear no relationship to this force. The force would not have been able to create the phenomenal world since the phenomenal world would be completely independent of the force. It would arise of its own accord. So maybe the phenomenal world is dependent upon the force. This relationship would be that of cause and result: the force is the cause and the phenomenal world is the result. But what is the relationship between the cause and the result? Does the cause exist before the result? Does the result exist before the cause? Or do they exist simultaneously? The first possibility is impossible, because a cause cannot exist before its result. If it did, why would it be a cause? Something is a cause only if it produces a result, but if no result exists, then there is no reason to call anything a cause - nothing has performed the function of a cause, and therefore no cause exists. Thus, the cause cannot exist before the result. The result cannot exist before the cause, because if it did it would be a result that was not produced by anything. It would be a result that had no cause. Cause and result cannot come into existence at the same time, they cannot exist simultaneously, because two things that come into existence at the same time do not have a chance to be cause and result - one does not have the opportunity to produce the other. Things cannot have a cause-and-result relationship if they occur simultaneously. Or perhaps, the force IS the phenomenal world, they are ONE. In this case, what is the point of talking about some abstract force? You're just saying force = everything, so therefore, everything = everything ... duh! Since the phenomenal world couldn't exist independently of your proposed force, nor could it exist dependently upon your proposed force, we must conclude that the proposed force is not real. -------------------- "What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?" "Belief is a beautiful armor But makes for the heaviest sword" - John Mayer Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin. "This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
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waiting ![]() Registered: 02/01/05 Posts: 4,033 Loc: mountains and la Last seen: 17 years, 3 months |
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Quote: All this "logic" is futile because you are just inserting assumptions (premises) as you see fit. I used the word "force" to describe something that does work (like in physics), something alive, moving. In that light, a human being is a force, a machine is a force, an animal is a force etc. First you assume this "force" is the ultimate thing, then you assume its indipendant of everything etc. All this is just inserting your own projections of this "force" What if this force is a man with an icrecream truck, just to illustrate. Is it the ultimate thing in the universe? no Did it exist before all other things? no If there was such a force, such a being, or entity or whatever, or a whole bunch of them working together, and it/they did give word to human beings, you have to assume that there is 99% chance that a word from something so sophisticated would be misinterpretate by simple human minds, or at least the majority of them. What you've said is true in logic, but really, this creator may have been life so more advanced than our own that it seemed like an omnipotent master of the universe to us. You seem to be not debunking the actual concept of a creator or god, but a typical catholic and jewish interpretation of that concept. And you can't even stard debunking that concept before you have some kind of a definition, and I can't give you one because I'm not really using this concept as a specific thing, but as a cathegory. That's really the core of real creationism as oposed to the christian version of creationism. Christian creationists think like this: evolution theory has holes, then they give you a couple of examples etc, and then they conclude: life had to be created, therefore everything in the Bible is truth That's ridiculously illogical, because it's like saying: Fred isn't a liar, and I can prove it: once he toled me that he bought a new washing machine, and I came to his house to see it, and it was there, he was telling the truth, therefore, Fred does not lie, whatever he tells you is true. Real creationism isn't about proving religious texts, it's about exploring the idea that life on earth is some kind of a creation, maybe from more advanced life in the universe, or some other kind of existence we don't know about yet. -------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine
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Human Being ![]() Registered: 10/03/04 Posts: 7,894 Loc: Here & Now |
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You seem to be not debunking the actual concept of a creator or god, but a typical catholic and jewish interpretation of that concept.
And you can't even stard debunking that concept before you have some kind of a definition, and I can't give you one because I'm not really using this concept as a specific thing, but as a cathegory. I'm attempting to show the impossibility of an ultimate force, as defined above. If you don't like the definition or the characteristics of the concept, then please provide more precise characteristics or a more precise definition, then I may try again. -------------------- "What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?" "Belief is a beautiful armor But makes for the heaviest sword" - John Mayer Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin. "This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
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waiting ![]() Registered: 02/01/05 Posts: 4,033 Loc: mountains and la Last seen: 17 years, 3 months |
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Quote: I know what you are trying to show, but I never said ultimate force, I just said force. How can I provide specific characteristics of "something" that is unknown to me? The only characteristic I can provide of this concept is this: -it has the ability to create/manufacture/grow -it created/manufactured/grew life on earth -it forces laws to its creations Out of the above enither suggests an "ultimate force" in only suggest that is writen in these 3 lines, there is nothing between lines. It's like when I say someones stole my car and you say, that can't be true, describe the man and the process of stealing and I'll debunk it. How could I when I have not witnessed it (if it were true)? -------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine
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Member of myCult Registered: 11/05/05 Posts: 323 Loc: The Present Last seen: 13 years, 6 months |
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Quote: Are you attemting to criticize thinking?! That which makes us human?! And you criticize it based on information which you recieved by mythology?! So, my only question to you is, HOW do you know this myth to be true? Also keep in mind if God (you may call It a powerful force, but I know you mean God; you even dare to degrade It by assigning It a HUMAN characteristics) created all this and he wanted a perfect product he would not have blessed us with thought. We would be like the animals. -------------------- Trust thyself.
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Auk Registered: 12/10/05 Posts: 845 Last seen: 17 years, 3 months |
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"""Are you attemting to criticize thinking?! That which makes us human?! And you criticize it based on information which you recieved by mythology?!
So, my only question to you is, HOW do you know this myth to be true? Also keep in mind if God (you may call It a powerful force, but I know you mean God; you even dare to degrade It by assigning It a HUMAN characteristics) created all this and he wanted a perfect product he would not have blessed us with thought. We would be like the animals. """" JESUS LOVES YOU
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Getafix Registered: 11/26/03 Posts: 634 Loc: Everywhere else Last seen: 11 years, 3 months |
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I don't think OldWoodSpectre was believing what he wrote when he was trying to provide an argument against open-mindedness, he was just providing an argument against open-mindedness for the sake of helping you establish some perspective on how that preacher was able to come to such a perposterous conclusion, himself.
Boils down like this; Believe that God wants things a certain way. Ways other than the way God said He likes 'em in the book He wrote are then to be considered not just wrong and detrimental to the individual, but detrimental to all those around them lest they provoke the wrath of this angry, book-writing God. Open-mindedness encourages people to explore things with their own minds and have their own thoughts rather than just reading God's book. Some of the things God's book frowns upon are things inherent in people, therefore people are inherently sinful, therefore if they start thinking about stuff for themselves they're bound to come to the wrong conclusions, therefore THINKING = EVIL. I'm just guessing, I'm not that bigot preacher, but there's a rundown on what I think his thoughts might be, phrased in such a way that they seem stupid and childish so that you don't think I'm knocking free thought too. -------------------- Don't worry, I'm wrong.
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Human Being ![]() Registered: 10/03/04 Posts: 7,894 Loc: Here & Now |
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Quite so. Openmindedness breeds creation and discovery and may at times stray from Truth but it will ultimately progress towards Truth. Closemindedness on the other hand breeds stagnation and boredom and more suffering.
-------------------- "What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?" "Belief is a beautiful armor But makes for the heaviest sword" - John Mayer Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin. "This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
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I Tell You What! Registered: 06/24/05 Posts: 5,998 Last seen: 8 years, 9 months |
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Quote: wise words. if everything is clear and cut then an aversion toward homosexuality is understandable. but Christianity is a rather new religion..... the Gods of the Greeks didn't seem to mind homosexuality at all, did they? it's interesting...... people are tapping something. and it inspirse them to create dogmas and frameworks for living. and i'm sure they are getting some things right.... but I wanna say a universalist approach to all religions is going to be the best...... God giving different cultures what they need, what is relevant for them at the time. See right now homosexuality plays a good function in population reduction.... people can have loose sex, but people don't get pregnant. Now is loose sex wrong? Well yeah I would personally say maybe..... but at least you can't get them pregnant if it's gay sex...... but then of course, there's the whole sex is only for procreation angle. See... The issue is authority. It's more of a thing about your nations culture than your "God" because the authority sets up very firm and authoritarian views that you must adhere to, and they have God on their side. So it's very hard for me as an American to question Christianity, whereas it's a lot easier to question Hinduism (which I like the different stages of life, one for having fun, one for being a monk, etc.... very sensible to me)..... but it's not Christianity perse... it's American authority that is the problem. How many of our views on gayness are based upon a personal relationship with God (Jesus, etc) and how many are just because deep down our panic buttons are pressed when we see men kissing, based upon how we were raised? How do you know anything? it's all so open ended and vague. and let's say God created man.... what if man created Christianity.... and Christianity has nothing to do with God? What if some religions are shams utilized to control and manipulate, whereas others are more sincere and direct to the source? Taoism and Buddhism at their cores seem to be very pure and sensible, because they don't rely on dogmas, rather healthy skepticism and pragmatic living.... and they encourage abandoing the part of the monkey mind that gets caught up in dogmatic thinking don't think is what they would say, that's how you find truth. And yet christianity wants you trapped in dogmas so that you are constantly thinking, constantly consulting some form of AUTHORITY no matter what you do, isntead of finding your own inner authority... and isn't that inner authority God if there ever was such a one? I don't get why we let a book that gives instructions on how ISRAELITES in the OLD DAYS should live run our modern American lives... it's so dusty and old.... now Jesus teachings, those are good and practical but look at how outdated the Bible is... it jsut rambles on and on about begettances and wars and things..... how is this helping us find God? Well you could assume the Bible is true, and that we are still living in Biblical times, and many of the Bible stories keep repeating over and over again, you could consider anything. the rational mind finds strong objection to Biblical authority though. and isn't it curious, Buddhism being such an extremely peaceful religoin.... and also not relying too much on dogma, encouraging critical thinking... not even necessarily being a "religion" at all? Thinking is automatically circular.... there is no way around this.... discursive dualities blind you to the big picture. Or so I would --> think. <--- That's the problem though. -------------------- ....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human...... Edited by leery11 (06/22/06 10:49 PM)
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Its just me Registered: 10/29/04 Posts: 1,188 Loc: Norway, Eidsvoll Last seen: 14 years, 4 months |
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Very good post leery11.
-------------------- The argent messenger of truth beyond truth, the antithesis of life, cruel and bleak as interstellar space, pulseless and frozen as absolute zero, dazzling with the frost of irrefragable logic and unforgettable fact. ![]()
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Auk Registered: 12/10/05 Posts: 845 Last seen: 17 years, 3 months |
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"""NEW YORK: Archaeologists have evidence that people were behaving like thoroughly modern humans 100,000 years ago, decorating themselves with status-defining jewellery - the earliest known shell necklaces.
If this analysis is correct, it means human self-adornment, considered a manifestation of symbolic thinking, was practised 25,000 years earlier than first thought. A team of archaeologists, writing in the journal Science, reported on an analysis of small shells with distinctive perforations that appeared to have been strung together as beads. Chemical studies showed two shells from the Skhul cave in Israel were 100,000 years old, and a single shell from Oued Djebbana, in Algeria, was 90,000 years old."
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Stranger Registered: 04/23/06 Posts: 1,949 Last seen: 14 years, 5 months |
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mens bungholes aren't made for entrance, only for exit, and I don't base this off a book either, other things that can be considered open minded are canibalism of your young, is that seem right, or believing in proposed prophets performing false mircles in the name of god, is believing in fraud open mindedness, or how about experiencing new drugs for the curosity until you become a junky, in the name open mindedness, or beleive in ridiculus mystic cults, that get you tatoo your whole body including your face, and to mutilate animals as sacrifice, is that being open minded
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waiting ![]() Registered: 02/01/05 Posts: 4,033 Loc: mountains and la Last seen: 17 years, 3 months |
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Quote: I neither criticised thinking nor did I assume this mythology to be true. I simple made a little text with the premise that it is true. If you can't think with different premises exept that one which you believe in, then you first lack the gift of thinking -------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine
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waiting ![]() Registered: 02/01/05 Posts: 4,033 Loc: mountains and la Last seen: 17 years, 3 months |
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Quote: exactly, I'm just providing one example scenario in which rejecting dogma through progressive thinking would be desconstructive. -------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine
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waiting ![]() Registered: 02/01/05 Posts: 4,033 Loc: mountains and la Last seen: 17 years, 3 months |
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Quote: Well even if god/gods exist, from the diversity of human mythology it is clear that he/they are grately misunderstood by us poeple. Even if you stay within one religion, like christianity, when Jesus came and explained a few things, some of it was quite different from what was believed before him, even though he only came to repair an existing religion and not make a new one. So, it is not suprizing that greeks and jews would have a different point of view on some things, though some nations have a closer relationship with god (real or not) than others. For example, aincient jews were a lot more religious than modern Dutch, and even had a lot of contacts with these creatures from the heavens, therefore, if this god exists, their views on life would be more accurate to what this god expects of people. Quote: again, it's a matter of premises, I believe that Bible makes so little sense today because it is being filtered through almost 2000 years of abuse and forced theology. I believe things are so obvious in the Bible that people just can't see them because they are reaching to far away when trying to make sense of it. For example, where is "heaven"? The rational mind today in 2006 would look for it by seaching for proof of some kind of other dimension of existence and all that fancy comic book science for which there is simply no indication. Maybe its more simple than that, heaven is a word used for sky, and it literally ment sky back then, so anything in the sky would be heaven. Therefore stars and planets are in heaven. A helicopter landing down would be a chariot of Jehowah comming from heaven back then. Therefore, heaven is right above us, it is the sky and the space, yet people have comic book ideas about other dimensions of existence and what not, non of which was ever described in any of the official texts in the Bible. You want proof of sky? Well look up. It's just gass and water fumes, and some vacuum above it. Also it's the place where gods came from in the aincient days. -------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine
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