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SoY
I am the LizardKing


Registered: 06/01/06
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Loc: Everywhere
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Time Dilation
#5776379 - 06/21/06 12:35 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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TIME DOES NOT EXIST AS WE KNOW IT........
Okay after watching What the Bleep Do We Know I wrote down some thoughts based on my experiences with time dilation while on mushrooms. I do not know how credible the facts about the human brain are but that is what they mentioned in the film.
"The human brain is constantly taking in information about the environment it exists in. Brain proccesses 400 Billion bits of information every second; we are only aware of 2,000...." quote from What the Bleep Do We Know
Time is a product of man, created to stabilize our thought patterns...
Time Dilation: "moments of eternity" = conciousness is aware of significantly increased amount of bits of information per second.
Imagine you are aware of 10,000 bits of information every second, instead of 2,000 -- still within the realm of what the brain is capable of. You would interpret and analyze 5 times as much information than you normally would in the same amount of time.
10,000 / 2,000 = 5
You would have five times the experiences of someone at a normal state of awareness, in the same amount of time.
Experiences are the base of how we define time.
Every bit of information that you are aware of is technically "experienced". When you are aware of 2,000 bits of information every second, you have 2,000 "experiences" every second. You experience time as 2,000 "events" per second. When you are aware of 10,000 bits of information every second, you have 10,000 "experiences" every second -- and you perceive time as 10,000 "events" per second.
In this heightened state of awareness, more is happening every second than usual. Because it is happening it is therefore part of reality. We are not always able to observe that many "events" per second, but that does not mean they do not occur. Dogs do not see color, yet we know that color exists. We are similar. We do not always observe everything that is actually happening around us. We have a partially blurred view of "reality".
Just some thoughts......
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   "The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji "Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream." "My karma ran over my dogma!"
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TheGus
The Walrus

Registered: 09/07/05
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Re: Time Dilation [Re: SoY]
#5776438 - 06/21/06 12:55 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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i like your thoughts, their at least on the right track
-------------------- "It is easier to teach a computer to play chess than to build a mudpie."Sherry Turkle Life on the Screen: Identity in the Age of the Internet "Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts"-Einstein
I pity the fool who break traffic laws with $870,000 of drugs in the car. -mo0nlite_sonata Psythos
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero


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Re: Time Dilation [Re: SoY]
#5779795 - 06/22/06 07:58 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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> Brain proccesses (sic) 400 Billion bits of information every second
This is misleading. The brain does not process information in "bits" (a bit is a single binary digit). Because of this, any further extrapolation based upon bits of processing power would be inherently incorrect.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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thirdEYEviewe
explorer

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Re: Time Dilation [Re: Seuss]
#5780017 - 06/22/06 10:11 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Are you saying that while tripping our brain increases the amount of things that we are aware of, and that is why time is changed. Because if that is what you mean, couldn't our mind be slowing down the amount of events perceived which would result in a slower perception of time, which is often felt while tripping.
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tallgreen
chillin like avillain

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That movie is amazing. Anyone who has not seen it is missing out! I particularly like the part about Masaru Emoto's work. http://www.life-enthusiast.com/twilight/research_emoto.htm
-------------------- Nothing you can know that isn't known. Nothing you can see that isn't shown. Nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be. It's easy. All you need is love. - The Beatles
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero


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Re: Time Dilation [Re: tallgreen]
#5780074 - 06/22/06 10:39 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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> That movie is amazing.
That movie is a complete waste of time; a bunch of pseudo-science BS and expert interviews taken out of context using Moore style editing. You would learn more watching paint dry.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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SoY
I am the LizardKing


Registered: 06/01/06
Posts: 774
Loc: Everywhere
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Re: Time Dilation [Re: Seuss]
#5780611 - 06/22/06 02:11 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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> couldn't our mind be slowing down the amount of events perceived
I have trouble wrapping my mind around how an amount can be slowed down. Reality and time do not change, only our perception of it does. When I am tripping I am aware of many more things in any given time period than when sober. For example, I can sometimes follow multiple thought trains simultaneously. Instead of noticing that there's a bug flying around, then noticing how the wind feels on my skin, then noticing how it affects the grass; I notice them all at once. I become aware of, analyze, and interpret those "bits" (that's what I call those experiences so lay off or give me a better term Seuss) of information about my environment at a much faster rate than when sober. Whilst tripping my mind is racing, constantly becoming aware of new events and occurrances that are happening all around me. I have watched the sun rise for a week in one day. By that I mean I had a week's worth of thoughts, ideas, and epiphanies all in a very short period of time. I could go on forever about this subject but I won't. But, depending on how you look at it, I already have....
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   "The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji "Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream." "My karma ran over my dogma!"
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SoY
I am the LizardKing


Registered: 06/01/06
Posts: 774
Loc: Everywhere
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Re: Time Dilation [Re: SoY]
#5780632 - 06/22/06 02:20 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Okay sorry Seuss I see your point. A bunch of bits of data make up an event, right? And events are what the brain has the power to proccess? Please endow me with your wisdom on this topic.
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   "The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji "Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream." "My karma ran over my dogma!"
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hoopershroomer
Bonafide Oneironaut


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Re: Time Dilation [Re: SoY]
#5780634 - 06/22/06 02:21 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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that concept is extremely interesting and enlightening. its astonishingly amazing just how complex life really is, and i love every minute i live of it
-------------------- "Life lived in the absence of the psychedelic experience that primordial shamanism is based on is life trivialized, life denied, life enslaved to the ego." "You teach the world how to treat you, by showing the world how you treat yourself." A well developed sense of humor is far superior to any religion" "Everything you could want and could be, you already have and are."
&
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SoY
I am the LizardKing


Registered: 06/01/06
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dido
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   "The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji "Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream." "My karma ran over my dogma!"
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SoY
I am the LizardKing


Registered: 06/01/06
Posts: 774
Loc: Everywhere
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Re: Time Dilation [Re: SoY]
#5780945 - 06/22/06 04:06 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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This video explains it well. Anyone who has been there will agree with the isness of it. As he states, "There is truly only one moment..."....
theremembering.co.uk
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   "The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji "Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream." "My karma ran over my dogma!"
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero


Registered: 04/27/01
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Re: Time Dilation [Re: SoY]
#5783243 - 06/23/06 08:56 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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> A bunch of bits of data make up an event, right?
Wrong. A bunch of bits is a virtual concept created by man. We can use a bunch of bits to represent an event just like we can use a picture to represent something... however, we would never confuse a picture of a tree with an actual tree, so why do you confuse a bunch of bits with an actual event?
> Please endow me with your wisdom on this topic.
I'm not claiming any wisdom on this topic, but I can smell BS when somebody tries to shove it my way... and that movie is full of it.
> so lay off
No, this forum is open to debate. If you do not like it, post in the sister forum in which debate is not allowed. A whopping ten posts and you are already telling the admin how to run their site.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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michael_lifshitz
Student


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Re: Time Dilation [Re: Seuss]
#5783381 - 06/23/06 10:23 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I still don't understand this concept, of time not existing. It simply exists. It seems to me if there is motion, which there is, there has to be time, wether you like it or not.
If you are discussing wether a second exists, then that is just rediculous because clearly a second is a human concept, and doesn't actually exist, it is simply a measurement of time, which is motion over a distance. Without time there is no distance or motion. And I believe I have perceived motion and distance enough times to validate time.
Can someone explain this to me? Tell me why I am wrong, I really want to understand.
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SoY
I am the LizardKing


Registered: 06/01/06
Posts: 774
Loc: Everywhere
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> No, this forum is open to debate I realized shortly after posting that in the heat of debate my wording was not friendly to you, and I apologized in the next post.
I did not just tell you to lay off, but rather suggested that you should if you cannot give me a better terminolgy to use in regards to explaining this phenomenon.
I am assuming you would prefer the term "events" instead of "bits" correct?
In order to further explain this I need a term that I can use that you agree is the correct way to label those units of data about the environment so that I don't confuse myself or anyone else any more than we already are.
and by the way it's 12 posts! lol
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   "The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji "Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream." "My karma ran over my dogma!"
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SoY
I am the LizardKing


Registered: 06/01/06
Posts: 774
Loc: Everywhere
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Re: Time Dilation [Re: SoY]
#5783573 - 06/23/06 11:44 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Regarding my original post, would it be better if I replace every instance of "bits of information" with "events"? To me that is a logical way of explaining it.
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   "The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji "Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream." "My karma ran over my dogma!"
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Lion
Decadent Flower Magnate


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Re: Time Dilation [Re: SoY]
#5783596 - 06/23/06 11:54 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
and by the way it's 12 posts! lol
well now, doesn't that just perfectly illustrate the illusion of time. you said "it's 12 posts" just as it became 13!
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dblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
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Re: Time Dilation [Re: SoY]
#5783617 - 06/23/06 12:03 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
SoY said: As he states, "There is truly only one moment..."....
When was it? There is no past, there is no future, and there is no present either!
On the path that has been traveled, there is no moving, On the path that has not been traveled, there is no moving either, And in some other place besides the path that has been travled and the path that has not, Motions are not perceptible in any way at all.
This is a verse written by a truly brilliant Buddha by the name of Nagarjuna in the 2nd century. He uses logical argumentation to show that the true nature of reality is in fact emptiness.
What does this particular verse mean? The first line says that on the path that has been traveled, there is no moving. Since we've already traveled along that path, there is no longer any motion there. There is nothing happening in the past. The past is dead and gone. On the path that has not been traveled, there is no moving either, since we have yet to travel on it. Thus there's nothing happening in the past or the future. And motions are not perceptible on some other part of the path, because there is no other part of the path. There is no such place that one either has not already been or has yet to go.
Okay, so you can't walk where you've already been, and you can't walk where you haven't yet been, but what about the present movement of the legs walking? It's just mere appearance, like walking in a dream: in between motion that has already happened and motion that has yet to happen, there is no present moment of motion - you just can't find it.
Snap your fingers. See if you can find the finger snap as it is happening. Is it happening in the present? When you snap your fingers, is that the present or the past? The first finger snap that has happened is the past - it is already over. The second snap has not happened yet, so that is the future. And in between these two, there is no present moment of the finger snap.
When we look at a finger snap, that moment can be divided into sixty-four individual units or instants, and those are said to be the most subtle moments of time in terms of what can actually be measured. But even those instants are likewise composed of millions of billions of tinier instants, and each of those instants is composed of an infinite number of subinstants, and you can keep going until finally you realize that there is no truly existent moment of time at all. There simply is no such thing as a "present moment."
Thus, since there is no time in which motion could occur, in genuine reality it does not occur. There is no coming, no going.
-------------------- "What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?" "Belief is a beautiful armor But makes for the heaviest sword" - John Mayer Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin. "This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
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Panoramix
Getafix


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Re: Time Dilation [Re: SoY]
#5783669 - 06/23/06 12:21 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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That seems like an excellent working explanation of time dilation to me. Increased awareness would increase the percieved value or 'length' of an objective second. As for dogs not seeing colour but colour existing irregardful of that, well, I suppose so, but colour is really just a wavelength measurement. That intangible quality we call green exists only as a value we assign to the light flying in our eyeholes and smacking into our nervous tissue. Oh and as a certain structure of the molecules on the surface of the alleged green thing that's causing light to be refracted at a certain wavelength. "Brain processes (sic) 400 Billion bits of information every second
This is misleading. The brain does not process information in "bits" (a bit is a single binary digit). Because of this, any further extrapolation based upon bits of processing power would be inherently incorrect."
Thank you for posting that, Seuss. That seriously bugged me when I watched that movie, the blatantly misleading assertion that the human brain 'processes' information in bits. An organic system is a chemical system, and contains so much more complexity than a rational, artifical binary system, it's staggering to contemplate. A binary switch is either on or off. You may say 'Yeah well, a neuron is either firing or not firing' but they are living cells and so their actions bear the complexity that that would seem to entail; they fire with varied intensities, they add chemicals into inter-neural cavities to induce firing or repress firing, reproducing or dying from lack of use and on and on. Plus the connections between binary switches goes A to B to C to D to E and on (I think) rather than A to Q and M at the same time to J to pi to pie to the square root of a negative number to kittens and back again twice before brunch. Someone who actually knows what they're talking about could elaborate more clearly, I'm sure.
And thanks for that Masaru link, Hoopershroomer. The movie did such a brief little spot on what I thought was the most interesting concept I hadn't already come across that was presented in the movie. His word-vibration theory ignores semantics, that I have a different definition of love than some others might, that meanings get attached to words rather than words generating their own innate meanings. For example, I can say fuck in a gentle, kind, loving manner, in an aggressive and hateful manner, in a aggrivated, hard-done-to manner and so on. It's a verb, it's a noun and it has different meanings at different times to different people. The meanings attached to words are not absolute, so how can the effects of words taped to water bottles be a repeatable phenomenon? Yes, I read the link and Mr. Masaru's explanation, but it doesn't address the multiplicity of meaning AT ALL. His ridiculous assertions of 'good' and 'bad' to bacteria border on the ludicrous. I'm sure each and every one of those bacterias' mums think they are just the most special single-celled organism ever.
I wasn't sure if there was value in his research due to the way the movie avoided going into his labratory procedures for the actual photographing of the water crystals, but I think that site allows me to deposit these theories safely in the bunk bin. I'm not saying there's absolutely no value in what he's saying, just that he would seem to be, from my vantage point, completely wrong. It's a nice idea, though.
-------------------- Don't worry, I'm wrong.
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tallgreen
chillin like avillain

Registered: 05/21/06
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Re: Time Dilation [Re: Panoramix]
#5783691 - 06/23/06 12:36 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I agree the movie has many inaccuracies. It's not for people looking for detailed scientific explanations. It's more of a introductory film for people foreign to the world of universal consciousness and other out-of-the-box type ideas. If you want deep scientific explanations there are much better films, but still I like the overall message, it does not offend me like it seems to have done Seuss. Have you guys seen "elegant universe" it's about string theory. Or how about this link: Itzhak Bentov died in 1979, but he did some amazing work. (it's poor quality but still watchable) video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5058672332658910022
-------------------- Nothing you can know that isn't known. Nothing you can see that isn't shown. Nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be. It's easy. All you need is love. - The Beatles
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Panoramix
Getafix


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Re: Time Dilation [Re: tallgreen]
#5783729 - 06/23/06 12:56 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Hate to be a bug, but you went and got me interested and then posted a dead link.
-------------------- Don't worry, I'm wrong.
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tallgreen
chillin like avillain

Registered: 05/21/06
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Re: Time Dilation [Re: Panoramix]
#5783752 - 06/23/06 01:09 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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-------------------- Nothing you can know that isn't known. Nothing you can see that isn't shown. Nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be. It's easy. All you need is love. - The Beatles
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Panoramix
Getafix


Registered: 11/26/03
Posts: 634
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Re: Time Dilation [Re: tallgreen]
#5784281 - 06/23/06 04:09 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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It's gonna take me a little while to watch that whole clip, but from what I've seen so far it looks like good stuff, thanks for the link. Then there's the show on salvia and amanita muscaria and such, plus tonight's The Brak Show and Harvey Birdman and Aqua Teen Hunger Force... Man, I have a lot of media to consume tonight!
-------------------- Don't worry, I'm wrong.
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tallgreen
chillin like avillain

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Re: Time Dilation [Re: tallgreen]
#5784300 - 06/23/06 04:22 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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ATHF!!! Yeah boy! That is my most favorite show ever, seriously. I DLd the entire collection from bittorrent and I have seen each episode at least a dozen times. I just can't get enough. Must be one of the best shows on television. But I'm weird so..
Yeah let me know what you think. Feel free to PM me encase I forget about this thread.
-------------------- Nothing you can know that isn't known. Nothing you can see that isn't shown. Nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be. It's easy. All you need is love. - The Beatles
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SoY
I am the LizardKing


Registered: 06/01/06
Posts: 774
Loc: Everywhere
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Re: Time Dilation [Re: tallgreen]
#5785289 - 06/23/06 10:18 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Great video! Sums up a lot of my thoughts and understandings perfectly.
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   "The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji "Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream." "My karma ran over my dogma!"
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SoY
I am the LizardKing


Registered: 06/01/06
Posts: 774
Loc: Everywhere
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Re: Time Dilation [Re: SoY]
#5785747 - 06/24/06 01:22 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Jesus--I mean hey, Seuss, I am curious as to your thoughts on the video above....
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   "The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji "Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream." "My karma ran over my dogma!"
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero


Registered: 04/27/01
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Re: Time Dilation [Re: SoY]
#5791658 - 06/26/06 05:03 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Haven't watched it yet, but will try to this evening.
I don't find the theme of the film to be offensive, but rather the way they twisted science by editing quotes out of context and outright telling of lies. Don't take my word for it:
http://film.guardian.co.uk/features/featurepages/0,4120,1484925,00.html:
Quote:
I have spent my entire working life either doing science or conveying its meaning and beauty to the public. Consequently, I despise What the Bleep Do We Know!?, because it distorts science to fit its own agenda, it is full of half-truths and misleading analogies, and some of its so-called scientific claims are downright lies. Worse still, having achieved cult status in America, this film has already duped millions into mistaking pure claptrap for something of cosmic importance. - Simon Singh. PhD in particle physics from Cambridge University.
...
What drives me to despair is not the dishonesty of the charlatans who peddle such tosh, but the dopey gullibility of the thousands of nice, well meaning people who flock to the cinema and believe it. - Richard Dawkins FRS, Charles Simonyi Professor of the Public Understanding of Science at Oxford.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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Diploid
Cuban


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Re: Time Dilation [Re: tallgreen]
#5793318 - 06/26/06 05:47 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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That movie is amazing. Anyone who has not seen it is missing out! I particularly like the part about Masaru Emoto's work.
An exerpt from one of my posts to another board:
Dr. Emoto claims that when he tapes words to bottles of water and freezes them, the crystals that form are descriptive of the words used. For example, if the word 'love' is taped to a bottle, beautiful crystals form; if the words 'you make me sick' are used, ugly crystals form.
What Emoto fails to mention is that the person judging the character of the crystals knows the word used and looks for a crystal among the millions that form which matches the target word. This is a huge no-no in science because it's been shown again and again that, even against your best intentions, if you know what's supposed to be there, you will usually find it - it's called "biased data selection" and automatically invalidates any findings.
To demonstrate a real effect, the person characterizing the crystals would have to be blind to the word used so that he can make an honest and fair assessment of the aesthetics of the crystal without foreknowledge of the word that was used.
By the way, my buddy James Randi has stated that if Emoto could perform this experiment double-blinded (meaning the person looking for the crystal does not know in advance what word was used), it would qualify for the JREF Million Dollar Prize. Demonstrating his claims in a proper double-blind protocol would show there really is a correlation between the words taped to a bottle and the crystals formed within. Not surprisingly, Emoto has never applied for the million dollar challenge.
Attempts to reproduce Emoto's work by others have now been made. Again not surprisingly, his results are unreproducible.
Additionally, Emoto has been invited to demonstrate his results by a few universities. He's declined all the invitations so far.
And finally, Emoto published his work without peer review (surprised?). This means that he can report anything at all, and since no other scientists were offered the opportunity to comment, his word goes uncontested.
It's relevant to note that even with all of the above, his book is selling well to people who buy new age mumbo jumbo that is demonstrably bullshit without applying the first bit of critical thought.
Learn to think critically folks, geez! It may save you some grief the next time some charlatan tries to sell you a swamp.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
Edited by Diploid (06/26/06 06:00 PM)
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dblaney
Human Being

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Re: Time Dilation [Re: Diploid]
#5793336 - 06/26/06 05:50 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Those are some very poignant points you make.
Gracias!
-------------------- "What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?" "Belief is a beautiful armor But makes for the heaviest sword" - John Mayer Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin. "This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
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slaphappy
Its just me


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Re: Time Dilation [Re: dblaney]
#5794641 - 06/27/06 12:57 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Time Dilation, short version:
More thinking, more time.
Keep up the good work
-------------------- The argent messenger of truth beyond truth, the antithesis of life, cruel and bleak as interstellar space, pulseless and frozen as absolute zero, dazzling with the frost of irrefragable logic and unforgettable fact.

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