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niteowl
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Re: When is war against the terror going to end? [Re: trendal]
#5772411 - 06/20/06 12:48 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
I was only using the War on Drugs as a comparison to show that the War on Terror isn't really a war, by definition.
Agreed.
There isn't an enemy-state that we have declared "war" on, just "terrorists". Thats a pretty loose definition of an "enemy". Someone who doesn't agree with your policies is now an "enemy" that deserves to be attacked 
How can the Geneva Convention be effective in this type of "war/conflict"....it can't. The U.S. gets to make up the rules as they go along.
I'm afraid that this "war" is going to be the downfall of our civilization/way of life as we know it today, if it isn't stopped soon.....and I don't see an end in sight
-------------------- Live for the moment you are in nowDon't be bogged down by your pastDon't be afraid of what lies in your future
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Alex213
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Re: When is war against the terror going to end? [Re: niteowl]
#5772697 - 06/20/06 02:29 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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There isn't an enemy-state that we have declared "war" on, just "terrorists".
Good point. It's a war on an abstract noun. Those are pretty hard wars to win
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zappaisgod
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Re: When is war against the terror going to end? [Re: Alex213]
#5772786 - 06/20/06 03:03 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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"Terrorist" is an abstract noun? Do tell. Then I guess "Painter" is as well. Or "student". Or "writer". Or "murderer". Back to class with you
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niteowl
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Re: When is war against the terror going to end? [Re: zappaisgod]
#5773047 - 06/20/06 04:19 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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I think he was trying to imply that we are at war with an idea and not a nation.
Ideas are abstract, nations are not.
-------------------- Live for the moment you are in nowDon't be bogged down by your pastDon't be afraid of what lies in your future
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zorbman
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Re: When is war against the terror going to end? [Re: Crobih]
#5773487 - 06/20/06 06:27 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Probably never.
Why?
Because this so-called "war" is independently designed by both sides to be self-perpetuating. This allows both camps to demonize the other so as to conveniently channel public outrage and thereby deflect public criticism away from their own failed world views and repressive policies.
So we have a series of outrages:
They have 9/11.
We have Abu Gharib.
They have beheadings.
We have the Haditha massacre.
The propoganda cycle never ends..
As Ron Suskind points out in his new book 'The One Percent Doctrine' , Osama bin Laden's preferred winner of the 2004 election was none other than.. George W. Bush! That is why he had his provacative tape released just prior to the election- to give Bush the edge. Of course the Bush camp would have you believe just the opposite.
If you are going to understand this "war" you must begin by realizing that both sides in this conflict need each other. In fact they actually give birth to each other and feed off the other as all religious zealots and extremists have throughout the ages.
Osama bin Laden was the best thing that ever happened to George W. Bush. If you recall, his presidency had little sense of focus or mission prior to 9/11. The presidency just seemed like the final entry in his resume' until then.
In my mind Bush is basically a hot-tempered dupe who was handed by history his own personal wet dream of committing unending aggression against "evil-doers". The real schemers are the people who know better- the rogues in the smoky back rooms..repulsive degenerates like Cheney who skulk in the shadows and use the military as their own private army as his pals reap their blood money while keeping a boardroom chair warm for Cheney. It turns your stomach when you really think about it.
Folks, this is why history warns again and again of mixing politics with religion. Our founding fathers were against it. Jesus for that matter was against it in spite of repeated attempts by his "followers" to draw him into the fray.
And now we have so-called "holy" warriors tearing up the planet, trashing our democracy from within and without. But the evil they seek lies within which is why they will never find it or defeat it. People never learn it seems.
And so it goes..
-------------------- “The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.” -- Rudiger Dornbusch
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Alex213
Stranger
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Re: When is war against the terror going to end? [Re: zappaisgod]
#5775105 - 06/21/06 01:05 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: "Terrorist" is an abstract noun?
No, "Terrorism" is. Try and read what I actually write instead of what your mind imagines I have written. You'll find it's the best way.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole

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Re: When is war against the terror going to end? [Re: Alex213]
#5776989 - 06/21/06 03:49 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Alex213 said: There isn't an enemy-state that we have declared "war" on, just "terrorists".
Good point. It's a war on an abstract noun. Those are pretty hard wars to win
You wrote that we declared war on terrorists. Read your own fucking posts. The referent for "abstract noun" is found in the previous sentence, which would be "terrorists". Whether you were the originator of that sentence is irrelevant, you used it.
To further illuminate the foolishness of this statement, a metalinguistic circle jerk, you could just as easily say that world war 2 was a war against a proper noun, i.e. the Axis Powers. Schoolboy masturbation. If you think you have a point try actually making it.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole

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Re: When is war against the terror going to end? [Re: zappaisgod]
#5777010 - 06/21/06 03:56 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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I, too, am quite sick of the overuse of this "war" meme. War on poverty, drugs, terror, AIDS, crime, forest fires, whatever. It's Madison Ave bullshit and a shortcut around discussion. But it's a quick sounder and doesn't cause any harm.
Nonetheless, the stupid name does not invalidate the worthiness of the cause.
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niteowl
GrandPaw


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Re: When is war against the terror going to end? [Re: zappaisgod]
#5777045 - 06/21/06 04:12 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: I, too, am quite sick of the overuse of this "war" meme. War on poverty, drugs, terror, AIDS, crime, forest fires, whatever. It's Madison Ave bullshit and a shortcut around discussion. But it's a quick sounder and doesn't cause any harm.
Nonetheless, the stupid name does not invalidate the worthiness of the cause.
What "worthy cause" is it, that we are fighting for?
Are we trying to catch the person (OBL) who attacked us on 9-11?
No.
That was the real reason for this "war on terror"......to catch the people responsible for 9-11.
That was a worthy cause....but it was just a ruse. The U.S. government never made any real effort to catch OLB. They just used this as an excuse to invade Iraq....revenge.
Is revenge a "worthy cause" to murder over 100,00 people?
-------------------- Live for the moment you are in nowDon't be bogged down by your pastDon't be afraid of what lies in your future
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole

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Re: When is war against the terror going to end? [Re: niteowl]
#5777110 - 06/21/06 04:35 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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As has been repeated over and over again, and which I will repeat yet again for the special few who have no clue. It is about the rule of law. It is as simple as that.
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niteowl
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Re: When is war against the terror going to end? [Re: zappaisgod]
#5778406 - 06/21/06 10:16 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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So you're saying that this "worthy cause" is over "rule of law". What rule of law are you talking about?
Iraq had NOTHING to do with what happened on 9-11.......there was no reason what so ever to invade Iraq.....other than revenge.
Bin Ladin was the "enemy who attacked us" not Saddam. 
GWB declares a "War on Terror".......an open-ended war........with no objective, no foreseeable end, nor means for an end.
With all other wars we have fought, there was a clear objective........a means to the end of the war.
What is our objective, in this war?
When is this "War on Terror" going to be over? When we catch Bin Ladin?......We are not even looking for him.
What are the terms for ending this "war"
No one knows, because the terms, for ending the war, were never set.
Sounds a little fishy to me.
-------------------- Live for the moment you are in nowDon't be bogged down by your pastDon't be afraid of what lies in your future
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Konnrade
↑↑↓↓<--><-->BA



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Re: When is war against the terror going to end? [Re: Crobih]
#5778433 - 06/21/06 10:23 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Depending on how you see it, the war is either allready over, or will never end.
Honestly though, this war is a means to an end, and the end is not in the interests of the populace. It's become an excuse to expand government powers, and that's why we're continuing to be told about supposedly horrible threats that are at best a longshot.
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I find your lack of faith disturbing
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs



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Re: When is war against the terror going to end? [Re: niteowl]
#5778594 - 06/21/06 11:02 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
The U.S. government never made any real effort to catch OLB.
What an absolute crock of shit. Do you have some secret information we are not privy to? I have a friend who had to leave his wife, job, and students behind out of nowhere for a week to fly to Pakistan because the government had a tip he was there. That sounds like they are looking for him to me.
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niteowl
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Re: When is war against the terror going to end? [Re: Redstorm]
#5778943 - 06/22/06 12:27 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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If our government wanted Bin Laden we would have had him YEARS ago.
They really didn't want him they wanted Saddam, and the oil he controlled.....and that is who they found....they morphed Bin Laden into Saddam, and went after him instead.
We had Bin Laden cornered shortly after we went into Afghanistan....and let the locals go in after him........WTF.
Quote:
U.S. forces allowed Osama bin Laden to escape during the battle at Tora Bora in 2001 because the administration, he said, "outsourced" the task to Afghan militia leaders. This probably overstates the case -- it is unclear whether bin Laden was at Tora Bora -- but it is true that the Pentagon relied on Afghan proxy forces in an effort to minimize the potential loss of U.S. military lives.
link
Quote:
The Bush administration has concluded that Osama bin Laden was present during the battle for Tora Bora late last year and that failure to commit U.S. ground troops to hunt him was its gravest error in the war against al Qaeda, according to civilian and military officials with first-hand knowledge........
After-action reviews, conducted privately inside and outside the military chain of command, describe the episode as a significant defeat for the United States. A common view among those interviewed outside the U.S. Central Command is that Army Gen. Tommy R. Franks, the war's operational commander, misjudged the interests of putative Afghan allies and let pass the best chance to capture or kill al Qaeda's leader.........
In the fight for Tora Bora, corrupt local militias did not live up to promises to seal off the mountain redoubt, and some colluded in the escape of fleeing al Qaeda fighters.........
"We [messed] up by not getting into Tora Bora sooner and letting the Afghans do all the work," said a senior official with direct responsibilities in counterterrorism. "Clearly a decision point came when we started bombing Tora Bora and we decided just to bomb, because that's when he escaped. . . . We didn't put U.S. forces on the ground, despite all the brave talk, and that is what we have had to change since then."
"Terror is bigger than one person," Bush said March 14. "He's a person that's now been marginalized." The president said bin Laden had "met his match" and "may even be dead," and added: "I truly am not that concerned about him."
link
Straight from the horses mouth........GWB isn't concerned about finding OBL, and we havent made any real effort to find him since Tora Bora. We went after Saddam instead.
-------------------- Live for the moment you are in nowDon't be bogged down by your pastDon't be afraid of what lies in your future
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Redstorm
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Re: When is war against the terror going to end? [Re: niteowl]
#5779036 - 06/22/06 12:51 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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The last time I checked, the President doesn not create battle strategy and determine where troops go. Someone fucked up, but it wasn't him this time.
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Konnrade
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Re: When is war against the terror going to end? [Re: Redstorm]
#5779548 - 06/22/06 04:49 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Generals make decisions like that, as well as the secretary of defense.
the commander in chief CAN step in whenever he damn well pleases and order something, but presidents normally trust the judgement of their designated military officials.
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I find your lack of faith disturbing
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gone
gone
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Re: When is war against the terror going to end? [Re: Konnrade]
#5780915 - 06/22/06 03:51 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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the war on terror will be won right around the time the wars on drugs and poverty are won. Translation: never. Fighting terror means fighting fear. Fear will not subside when it has 115,000 guns put to it's head.
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zappaisgod
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Re: When is war against the terror going to end? [Re: niteowl]
#5781346 - 06/22/06 06:24 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
niteowl said: So you're saying that this "worthy cause" is over "rule of law". What rule of law are you talking about?
The law inherent in his surrender agreement, whereby he was to verifiably destroy all WMDs, among other conditions, as well as numerous other violations of Kindergarten etiquette. He clearly failed sandbox and needed to be expelledQuote:
Iraq had NOTHING to do with what happened on 9-11.......there was no reason what so ever to invade Iraq.....other than revenge.
Is it your ridiculous assertion that the only bad act anyone has ever perpetrated is 9/11? Nobody said he had anything to do with 9/11. Bulletin to you......Other people have committed other hideous acts. Was Saddam some poor innocent lamb? No, he was a murderous thug who had committed many acts of international and intranational terrorism and who clearly was willing to commit more. So sorry, time for him to goQuote:
Bin Ladin was the "enemy who attacked us" not Saddam. 
Not alone. That's why the Taliban live in caves. And they had shit resources. Given Saddam's willingness to support terror and his potential resources to do so (see recent news regarding offers of support and declassified reports of WMDs) and his clear refusal to adhere to the inspection regime he agreed to his removal was imminently necessary. Now we could have chosen to just do that and left a stinking pile of debris, but we chose to take on a harder job with the potential for greater rewards, i.e. future stability. We'll see. Can the troglodytes govern themselves peacably? Stay tuned. I think it's worth a shot. I don't care what you think. You're not in charge. And that helps me sleep at night.Quote:
GWB declares a "War on Terror".......an open-ended war........with no objective, no foreseeable end, nor means for an end.
I have already expressed my distaste for this metaphoric use of the word "War". There is an objective,just as there is an objective in every criminal murder investigation or sting operation. To get the bad actors off the streets. There is no end. There will never be an end. You overbuy the metaphor. Get over it.Quote:
With all other wars we have fought, there was a clear objective........a means to the end of the war.
What is our objective, in this war?
When is this "War on Terror" going to be over? When we catch Bin Ladin?......We are not even looking for him.
What are the terms for ending this "war"
No one knows, because the terms, for ending the war, were never set.
Sounds a little fishy to me.
Look, you can get caught up in this metaphor all you want. It's not a real war anymore than the War on Poverty is a real war. IT'S A FUCKING METAPHOR. Capisce? Jesus. Get my car. I'm outta here.
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Alex213
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Re: When is war against the terror going to end? [Re: zappaisgod]
#5782707 - 06/23/06 01:05 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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The law inherent in his surrender agreement,
You are talking utter bollocks. Resolution 641 says nothing like "The US has the right to invade Iraq in 12 years if the US alone thinks it has the right to". If you can find me that line, go ahead.
Without UN authorisation the war was illegal. End of story.
and who clearly was willing to commit more.
Evidence? Or is this up there with "WMD"?
Given Saddam's willingness to support terror
Evidence?
see recent news regarding offers of support and declassified reports of WMDs
Sorry but the reports are bollocks. They amount to nothing more than 20 year old shells found unexploded on old battlefields.
and his clear refusal to adhere to the inspection regime
Come again? You need to read up on someone called Hans Blix.
his removal was imminently necessary
Not according to the UN who utterly rejected the invasion of Iraq.
There is no end. There will never be an end.
Don't be melodramatic. Of course there'll be an end to the clusterfuck in Iraq.
IT'S A FUCKING METAPHOR
You fighting wars on metaphors now?
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The_Red_Crayon
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Re: When is war against the terror going to end? [Re: Crobih]
#5782776 - 06/23/06 01:53 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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The war on terror will end when both combattants eventually run out of money.
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