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OfflineViveka
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Registered: 10/21/02
Posts: 4,061
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Re: poll ..9/11 conspiracy theories... [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5799378 - 06/28/06 01:20 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Eyewitness accounts are the weakest possible form of evidence.  They are subject to a series of filters, the first and most obfuscating of which is perception itself.  What about all the people who swear they saw a missle drone fly into the towers or that they were there and no plane hit the pentagon?  Do we just take all their accounts at face value?  The next filter is how the eyewitness remembers it.  Then you have to consider how the anecdote is recorded into the public record.  Is it fully in context, is it a complete recollection, etc.?  Then there are other people's interpretations of it of course.  And the slimiest thing about it is the re-presentation of an anecdote in abridged form or out of context.  Let's look at an example:

“It started exploding,” recalled Ross Milanytch. “It was about the 70th floor. And each second another floor exploded out for about eight floors, before the cloud obscured it all.” [NYT Sept 13/01]
When I first started reading this, based on how it was presented in the article, the content of the quotes in front of it, I visualized this guy being in the building, hearing explosions in floors above him(flawed perception rearing its inept head).  I googled the quote (LONG LIVE GOOGLE):
Police officers warned people in the vicinity to move north, that the buildings could fall, but most people found that unthinkable. They stayed put or gravitated closer. Abruptly, there was an ear-splitting noise. The south tower shook, seemed to list in one direction and them began to come down, imploding upon itself. It looked like a demolition,” said Andy Pollock. It started exploding,” said Ross Milanytch, 57, who works at nearby Chase Manhattan Bank. “It was about the 70th floor. And each second another floor exploded out for about eight floors, before the cloud obscured it all...People started walking briskly north until the premonition became real — another horrifying eruption, as one floor after another seemed to detonate...Ross Milanytch: 'The dust was about an inch and a half thick on the ground.'"
So now I have a new picture.  This guy was standing on the ground and he is describing his experience of seeing the tower collapse and the ensuing phenomenon as explosions.  So does this literally mean detonated explosives?  And if you go by this guys account, the tower collapsed 1 floor per second so does that mean it took over a minute for the tower to collapse? "It looked like a demolition,” said Andy Pollock.  Shit, Andy Pollock said it looked like a demolition.  It must have been a demolition. "...one floor after another seemed to detonate...", one per second right, seemingly?

Quote:

I don't understand your second question or what you are asking I beleive. I am just asking questions because I don't have beliefs set. If you have concluded that it was thermite made form the aluminum from the planes, that cut the steal and caused the collapse, then what was it that caused WTC 7 to collapse, if there was no aluminum plane in it burning Jet fuel to create the thermite?




I haven't concluded that it was thermite, just entertained the possibility.  There is no way for me to be certain it was thermite probably ever.  I was not asserting that thermite had anything to do with 7WTC, only that it could possibly explain the molten materials pouring from the building before it's collapse, and possibly the molten metal in the rubble and possibly the reason for collapse.  However, I am also not certain that thermite was even necessary at all for collapse.  Your response that thermite didn't explain building 7 was entirely extraneous.

Quote:

Never in history has such a building collapsed due to a fire-NEVER. Makes one wonder and ask questions. That's all.




So are you implying that something can never happen because it's never happened before? Shit, how'd we get here? :tongue:

Quote:

That buildings fire just raises questions to the governments version that the fire alone in WTC 1&2 took it down.



Questions based on what?  Was there another 110 story tower that had a 747 loaded with fuel flown directly into it at top speed that didn't collapse that I'm not aware of?

Quote:

It was this C-130 plane crash into a ten story building in Tehran that did not collapse. If planes crashed into buildings can cut steal so quickly like in WTC 1&2, this one should've fell also. It didn't.




Study that story again.  The plane crashed into the ground next to the tower, starting a fire.  Even if it had flown directly into it so what?  You're speculating far too much to think it would tell you anything about september 11th.

Quote:

I was still impressed with what Seuss and WS came up with about how thermite could've been made in WTC towers 1 and 2.



Me too.  I wonder why this guy never seriously considered the possibility.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
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Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
Re: poll ..9/11 conspiracy theories... [Re: Viveka]
    #5799545 - 06/28/06 02:16 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Viv said:
just entertained the possibility.




Thats all I have been doing, entertaining possibilities as new ones arise and asking questions.



Quote:

Quote:

Never in history has such a building collapsed due to a fire-NEVER. Makes one wonder and ask questions. That's all.




So are you implying that something can never happen because it's never happened before? Shit, how'd we get here? :tongue:




No, I am not asserting that :lol: In fact I speak out against that often in S&P. The Wright Brothers are a great example. 

The fact that other buildings built with similar construction never fell to date due to fires that burned much longer then they did in the WTC's just raises more questions is all.

It was never explained by the administration what was so unique about the fires of towers 1, 2 and 7 that made all of them collapse demolition style, where no others in history ever did, not even another hit by a plane with full fuel tanks.

I'm asking questions and open to reviewing all answers and possibilities.

I use to have a sig quote that said,

"A Conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking"

Because 9/11 isn't something I need at least a temporary working conclusion to take action with, I have no personal need to come to any. I can't change what happened. All I can do is my best to understand it and learn from it.

:peace: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


Edited by gettinjiggywithit (06/28/06 07:43 PM)


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OfflineAldous
enthusiast
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Registered: 10/19/99
Posts: 977
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Re: poll ..9/11 conspiracy theories... [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5803364 - 06/29/06 01:54 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Keep up the good work jiggy!  :thumbup:

Unfortunately, I've completely run out of real world time to follow this lovely discussion, let alone participate in it. Now I'm leaving on a holiday, but I hope it will still be up when I get back around July 10. :bye:


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: poll ..9/11 conspiracy theories... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #5813917 - 07/02/06 10:24 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

The coruscating agents of the Nerdle Wombanger Cabal, along with considerable support from other dexterous members of O.M., have uncovered yet another astoundingly crepuscular government cover-up. The United States government currently is waging its “Global War on Terror” against Osama Bin Laden and Al Queda in response to the September 11th attack on the World Trade Center. But! The real villains of this vile terrorism are not Osama Bin Laden and his maladroit band of merry Jihadists. The real antagonists of this novel are an ominously combined force of the Irish Republican Army (IRA) and the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC)!

The Irish compose one of the major ethnic groups within Manhattan, yet only one Irish citizen was reported to have died in the attack on the World Trade Center.[1] Why did so many Irishmen fail to show up for work on 9/11? It seems the terrorists who destroyed the World Trade Center were not Arabs, but strangely, Irish nationalists.

The Irish Voice reported that undocumented Irish “construction workers” had been working at the World Trade Center on the day it was attacked. “As the Irish Voice reported last week, another undocumented Irish worker using false identification who narrowly escaped with his life stated that he saw many other Irish undocumented construction workers going up to a higher floor on the morning that the blasts occurred.” Not only were these “construction workers” merely undocumented, but they also assumed false pseudonyms.[3] This “construction worker” façade would certainly be useful to anyone wishing to plant explosives. Coincidentally, as they would have us believe, Larry Silverstein, the owner of World Trade Center Seven, whimsically admitted on a PBS documentary that his building was brought down by demolitions. Could these “undocumented construction workers” be the demolition team that ultimately brought down the World Trade Center?

All of the Irish “undocumented construction workers” escaped the attack alive, although sustained minor injuries. While hospitalized, those men contacted a representative of Parliament who was a member of Sinn Fein, the political arm of the IRA. Soon afterwards, all these men were quickly whisked back to Ireland without any investigation or questioning by the Immigration and Naturalization Service.[3]

The Irish Republican Army had no reason to attack the United States unprovoked. Rather, they seem to have been working for the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia. The FARC supplies the IRA with much of its weaponry and training. Columbian Security Forces arrested three members of Sinn Fein after participating in a five-week training FARC terrorist training camp. “According to British security sources, it was at one of these camps that the three IRA men swapped expertise and tested new bomb-making equipment.”[6] At this point, it seems clear that the “undocumented construction workers” received their explosives training from a similar FARC camp.

The FARC relies heavily on the drug trade in order to finance its ongoing revolution against the government of Columbia. Prior to 9/11, due to pressure from the United States and other countries, the Taliban had suppressed the once lucrative opium market in Afghanistan. The FARC gained considerable funds from the distribution of Afghani’s opium and the elimination of this trade undoubtedly hurt them.

The FARC masterminded this set up against Al Queda in an attempt to have the Taliban overthrown. Since members of the FARC would have an incredibly hard time entering the United States, the attack appears to have been implemented mainly by members of the IRA.

As expected by FARC, after the attack on the World Trade Center the United States entered Afghanistan and removed the Taliban from power. Once the Taliban had been removed, opium production steadily rose back to pre-Taliban standards.

It must be assumed all the findings of the 9/11 Commission are false. The government of the United States of America appears to be utterly infiltrated by agents of the Irish Republican Army. On September 11, Richard Haass, a special United States envoy sent by president Bush to Dublin, heard of the attacks on the World Trade Center, but continued on with his meetings unaffected.[4] It is possible that only Richard Haass is subordinate to the IRA, but it is also possible that both Richard Haass and George W. Bush Jr. are affiliated with them! We know Richard Egan, the American ambassador to Dublin, is under the thumb of the IRA, for he was photographed meeting with Joe Cahill, the former murderer, weapons smuggler, and head of the IRA's financial network.[5] And this is only the tip of the iceberg. Just how much influence the IRA wields over the government of the United States is unknown, but it is certainly enough to cover-up their footprints. Our government has been duped, but thanks to the Nerdle Wombanger Cabal, light has been shed on this terrible travesty.

1. http://www.september11victims.com/september11victims/COUNTRY_CITIZENSHIP.htm
2. http://www.irishabroad.com/news/irishinamerica/columnists/Sidewalks/isthefdnyracist.asp
3. http://web.archive.org/web/2004102906470...article=1524076
4. http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/othelem/chron/ch01.htm
5. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/10/12/wire12.xml

:tongue:


Edited by MushmanTheManic (07/02/06 10:26 PM)


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 2 months, 20 days
Re: poll ..9/11 conspiracy theories... [Re: Viveka]
    #5814780 - 07/03/06 05:05 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

> I was still impressed with what Seuss and WS came up with about how thermite could've been made in WTC towers 1 and 2.

I don't want to take credit for something that W_S came up with. Actually, we kind of led each other to it, but he made the critical connection, not I.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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OfflineJ4S0N
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Registered: 07/29/04
Posts: 284
Last seen: 15 years, 6 months
FBI says, ‘No hard evidence connecting Bin Laden to 9/11' [Re: Annapurna1]
    #5816229 - 07/03/06 02:29 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

http://www.theithacajournal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060629/OPINION02/606290310/1014

"The Muckraker Report spoke with Rex Tomb, chief of investigative publicity for the FBI. When asked why there is no mention of 9/11 on the Bin Laden's Most Wanted Web page, Tomb said, “The reason why 9/11 is not mentioned on Osama Bin Laden's Most Wanted page is because the FBI has no hard evidence connecting bin Laden to 9/11.”

Surprised by the ease with which this FBI spokesman made such an astonishing statement, I asked, “How was this possible?” Tomb continued, “bin Laden has not been formally charged in connection to 9/11.” I asked, “How does that work?” Tomb continued, “The FBI gathers evidence. Once evidence is gathered, it is turned over to the Department of Justice. The Department of Justice than decides whether it has enough evidence to present to a federal grand jury. In the case of the 1998 United States Embassies being bombed, bin Laden has been formally indicted and charged by a grand jury. He has not been formally indicted and charged in connection with 9/11 because the FBI has no hard evidence connecting bin Laden to 9/11.”"


--------------------
"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Former Director, CIA


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Offlineexclusive58
illegal alien

Registered: 04/16/04
Posts: 2,146
Last seen: 5 years, 10 months
Re: FBI says, ‘No hard evidence connecting Bin Laden to 9/11' [Re: J4S0N]
    #5816371 - 07/03/06 03:20 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

"Who is it that is controlling the media message, and how is it that the U.S. media has indicted Osama bin Laden for the events of Sept. 11, 2001, but the U.S. government has not? How is it that the FBI has no “hard evidence” connecting Osama bin Laden to the events of September 11, 2001, while the U.S. media has played the bin Laden-9/11 connection story for five years now as if it has conclusive evidence that bin Laden is responsible for the collapse of the twin towers, the Pentagon attack, and the demise of United Flight 93?"


Important questions indeed. The list of questions is getting longer and longer.


--------------------


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OfflineDavid_vs_Goliath
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Registered: 04/01/06
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Re: FBI says, ‘No hard evidence connecting Bin Laden to 9/11' [Re: exclusive58]
    #5817911 - 07/03/06 10:05 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

This Is UNBELIEVABLE....How no one has ever talked about this on main-stream media is mind-blowing.

Straight from the FBI's Most wanted list. USAMA BIN LADEN
_NO MENTION OF ANY ATTACKS ON 9/11 *****


http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/terrorists/terbinladen.htm


--------------------
"People living deeply have no fear of death."
"Love the animals, love the plants, love everything. If you love everything, you will perceive the divine mystery in things. Once you perceive it, you will begin to comprehend it better every day. And you will come at last to love the whole world with an all-embracing love."
"Our problems are man-made, therefore they may be solved by man. No problem of human destiny is beyond human beings."


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