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OfflineSeussA
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Re: poll ..9/11 conspiracy theories... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5792712 - 06/26/06 02:34 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Concerning Silverstein's insurance money, it seems that I didn't get my facts straight, I checked your claims and they seem to be correct, my bad.




Actually, it isn't your bad.  I see this sort of thing over and over with the 9/11 conspiracy crowd.  One person makes a claim.  Somebody else repeats the claim and changes it a bit.  Soon everybody is repeating various versions of the claim.  Eventually, somebody comes along and points out a conspiracy exists because of one of the versions floating about.  Somebody else comes along and claims a conspiracy because there are so many versions floating around.  After a while the whole thing turns into a self-feeding beast that supports itself on a foundation of misunderstandings and outright lies.

There was a segment on CNN a few weeks back with the reporter that was at the Pentagon immediately after the attack on the building.  Somebody asked him a question and his answer was something along the lines of "No plane hit the building, it appears to have hit the ground first and then slid into the building."  However, when you see him quoted on the conspiracy sites, the quote reads "There was no plane" or "It was not a plane" or "It was a missle that hit the building, not a plane."  The actual question asked was close to "Did the plane hit the building or ground."  The reporter was fairly ticked at the conspiracy sites for using his words out of context, or changing his words completely, to support something that he never implied, said, or meant.

Even looking at the picture posted above with somebody talking about the "45 degree angle" of the cut beam in the background.  Ok, prove to me that it is exactly a 45 degree cut and not a 15 degree or 60 degree cut.  Not that it matters, but a 45 degree cut sounds staged or engineered while any other random angle does not... and it looks to be around 45 degrees, therefore it must be thermite!  Second, notice the other ten to twelve beams in the picture that are not cut at an angle.  Care to explain those?  :rolleyes:


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Offlineexclusive58
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Registered: 04/16/04
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Re: poll ..9/11 conspiracy theories... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5792789 - 06/26/06 02:57 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

exclusive58 said:
Second, Silverstein DID talk about pulling the building down in the PBS documentary, let me quote him for you:

Quote:

I remember getting a call from the, er, fire department commander, telling me that they were not sure they were gonna be able to contain the fire, and I said, "We've had such terrible loss of life, maybe the smartest thing to do is pull it." And they made that decision to pull and we watched the building collapse.




What else do you want?? I'm interested to see how you're going to twist this quote into making it say that it wasn't demolished, just so you can go on and avoid seeing the awful truth. And don't give me any of that "he was under stressful conditions when he said that" nonsense.




Unfuckingbelievable.  It just isn't there.  How about,just pull the firemen out and let it go before anybody else gets hurt?





lol, I knew you would answer that, I knew you would change the word "it", which refers to the building, and make it mean "them", which would refer to the firefighters. Why can't you admit that he's talking about pulling down the building????? "They made that decision to pull, and we watched the building collpase"!!! Goddamn, open you eyes!
And anyways, as Aldous pointed out, FEMA report says that there were no firefighting in WTC7.


Quote:

]zappaisgod said:
Quote:

]exclusive58 said:
And apart from this very revealing quote, the collapse of WTC7 exhibited all the features of a controlled demolition, I suggest you watch 9/11 Revisited, at the end there's a scientific expert that does a review of all of them.





I'm not going to watch that.  Ever.  I only have so many hours left and I don't intend to waste it on nonsense that is prima facie false.  You can find an expert to testify to anything.  I won't even bother checking his creds.  I don't fucking care.




And there we have it folks, the problem hidden within the "coincidence theory" crew is that they are so brilliant that they already know that the government's story is true and all else is false without ever investigating for themselves and just by listening to what they've been hearing on TV. Really, how in the world could they be wrong?  :smirk:


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: poll ..9/11 conspiracy theories... [Re: exclusive58]
    #5792841 - 06/26/06 03:17 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

You are getting your ass handed to you and all you have to go on is my refusal to watch a piece of lunatic fringe video. And you say my mind is closed. Unfuckingbelievable.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Registered: 07/20/04
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Re: poll ..9/11 conspiracy theories... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5793196 - 06/26/06 05:08 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I don't see you handing his ass to him. I see some more funny stuff though-

Zap says, "I am not close minded just because I refuse to open my mind to review and consider additional information, because my mind is made up and closed on the subject."

That's as funny as the one about the thugs proving they aren't thugs, by kicking your ass, over being called a thug. :lol: :thumbup:

:peace: :heart:


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: poll ..9/11 conspiracy theories... [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5793414 - 06/26/06 06:16 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Don't misquote me and don't paraphrase that which you don't understand. His ass has been fairly well handed to him


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: poll ..9/11 conspiracy theories... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5793437 - 06/26/06 06:26 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

my refusal to watch a piece of lunatic fringe video. And you say my mind is closed. Unfuckingbelievable.




Is that better?  :grin:

And you somehow "magically" know what I do and do not understand without asking any investigative questions into my understanding of your having his ass on platter first?

Interesting psychic powers you have. :wink:

:peace: :heart:


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: poll ..9/11 conspiracy theories... [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5793452 - 06/26/06 06:31 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Your internet persona is an open book to me. As it is to all who view it. Anything other than that is irrelevant speculation. Accent irrelevant


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: poll ..9/11 conspiracy theories... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5793512 - 06/26/06 06:58 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I hope people are seeing the real and genuine me through my posts. That's the idea. :cool: 

BTW way, since you are enforcing strict rules to not misquote anything presented here, I don't recall exclusive sharing a video link called  "lunatic fringe". I looked all over for a video link called lunatic fringe and couldn't find it in this thread. I think you may have misquoted something he shared.

He did share a link a few pages back called-

911research.wtc7.net/post911/commission/report

Yes, best to be completely accurate here indeed. :thumbup:

:peace: :heart:


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: poll ..9/11 conspiracy theories... [Re: Aldous]
    #5793965 - 06/26/06 09:11 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I love how the government can never be trusted unless what they're saying helps back up your wacky conspiracy theory.

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OfflineAldous
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Re: poll ..9/11 conspiracy theories... [Re: Redstorm]
    #5794850 - 06/27/06 03:10 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

You gotta love it, it's a basic investigative attitude.

When the cops have a suspect for a crime, obviously the suspect will try to refute accusations, he takes a stance to only say things that are as favorable to himself as possible. (And if he's innocent, he just tells the truth and has nothing to worry about.) So whenever the suspect says anything that incriminates him to some extent, you can trust him with more certainty than if he says something that completely makes him look innocent. Of course, you have to check both as thoroughly as you can, but the rule is that if he says something that incriminates him, either he does so because he has to admit the undeniable, or the truth is even worse.

So, for example, if even FEMA says they don't have a clue as to what caused WTC7 to collapse, of course they look a bit stupid, but less so than if they tried a totally unrealistic explanation. Maybe that's also what crossed Silverstein's mind when he made his "pull it" comment: we better admit that WTC7 was demolished, because it's too obvious; but let's say it was decided on the spot, because any other version would raise dangerous questions. Not a smart move, of course, but when you're guilty and the truth closes in on you, you tend to accumulate mistakes.

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OfflineAldous
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Re: poll ..9/11 conspiracy theories... [Re: Aldous]
    #5794857 - 06/27/06 03:15 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Gee, with only Seuss and zappa as contradictors, I'm beginning to miss Phred here (never thought I would ever say that  :grin:).

I really wonder what bothers him about that thermate issue...  :confused:

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Offlinekotik
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Re: poll ..9/11 conspiracy theories... [Re: Redstorm]
    #5794911 - 06/27/06 04:21 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
I love how the government can never be trusted unless what they're saying helps back up your wacky conspiracy theory.




correct. politicians that ignore it, or are unaware do not deserve to be getting tax dollars. politicians that do know about it and do nothing are part of the conspiracy.

why is that so wacky? If it's true, then it makes more sense than picking a side.


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No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.

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OfflineJ4S0N
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Re: poll ..9/11 conspiracy theories... [Re: kotik]
    #5795231 - 06/27/06 09:19 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I'd still like to see some evidence to prove it was muslims that brought down the buildings. The FBI admits that none of the named 'hi-jackers' were actually on the flight records. No one can prove they were on the planes. Other then a grainy video of a guy who kinda looks like osama saying he did the whole thing, there really isn't much evidence. But its enough if your a racists republican i guess.

I knew from day one that only a very skilled team could pull that operation off. And if you read up on what the school teachers of these 'hi-jackers' had to say about there skills, you'll know that none of them were very skilled at anything (except being a patsie).


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"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Former Director, CIA

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OfflinePhred
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Re: poll ..9/11 conspiracy theories... [Re: J4S0N]
    #5795371 - 06/27/06 10:15 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

I'd still like to see some evidence to prove it was muslims that brought down the buildings.




You forget that the perpetrators were on a suicide mission. They all KNEW they would die. There is no shortage of Muslim 'splodeydopes. There is, on the other hand, a marked shortage of Mormon, Lutheran, Catholic, Taoist, Shinto, Animist, Wiccan, Buddhist, or Zoroastran 'splodeydopes.

Who do you believe the hijackers were if not Jihadis? Throw out some rational alternatives for our inspection.

Quote:

I knew from day one that only a very skilled team could pull that operation off.




Nonsense. How much skill does it take to buy airline tickets? How much skill does it take to cow passengers into behaving themselves -- especially if you kill one early on as a lesson to the rest, and claim you have a bomb you'll detonate if they get out of line? The only thing different "skillwise" about these hijackings compared to dozens of prior hijackings is that one of the hijackers on each plane had taken enough training to know how to maneuver and navigate a modern airliner. And even that doesn't require a particularly high degree of skill. The autopilot would handle most of it.



Phred


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OfflineAldous
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Re: poll ..9/11 conspiracy theories... [Re: Phred]
    #5795705 - 06/27/06 12:14 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Phred, don't think I'm begging or anything, but if you don't address the material thermate issue, people are going to think you have nothing to oppose to the evidence presented. That would harm your credibility as a debunker, and would install the thermate story as an accepted fact on this forum. Urgent action is needed!  :wink:

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OfflineViveka
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Re: poll ..9/11 conspiracy theories... [Re: Aldous]
    #5796586 - 06/27/06 05:53 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I think WiccanSeeker did a pretty bang up job of spelling out a potential thermite scenario from the perspective of what you would call a "coincidence-theorist".  It's over in the science forum: http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/5698901/page/1/fpart/1/vc/1
And here it is again:

"You can't escape the tin foil this time, because it is at the heart of my theory. Tin being aluminium, Al 7150-T651 alloy to be exact. And foil being the Boeing airplane skin made from it.

I won't bore you all with the details, but here's the deal in a nutshell:

Upon impact there was generated a lot of pulverized concrete. Since the fire took place in enclosed, insulated but well-ventilated spaces the burning jet fuel melted the aluminium at around 660'C which is well in the realm of jet fuel's capabilities. This molten aluminium alloy Al 7150-T651, consisting of 89.08% aluminium, 6.2% zinc, 2.3% copper, 2.3% magnesium, 0.12% zirconium seeped into the powdered concrete, forming a thermite mixture based on a CaCO3/SiO2/Al mixture. Heated aluminium rapidly oxidizes, increasing the temperature, until it finally ignites in open air at around 700'C.

So what do we have? We have an oven-like enviroment, acting like a crude blast furnace, with a thermite mixture burning in it, feeding off itself, combustion gases of the jet fuel (CO2/CO/H2O) and the air. Some combustion products (Calcium, Silicon) themselves are highly combustible, leading to secondary thermite-like reactions. This drives the temperature considerably above the temperatures burning jet fuel is capable of, and most construction steel beams lie exposed due to the shattering blow.

The steel heats up, perhaps some of it close to the thermite will melt, and the buildings collapse in on themselves.
The rest is tragic history.

Seuss, you're the pro, how's about us splitting that thar million for demonstrating how the steel could yield at locally generated temperatures. We got it published first

So yes, we have thermite, but no conspiracy what-so-ever  "

Check out the thread for more on the scenario.

A day or two after I saw Wiccan's thread, I was telling my friend who wrenches on Boeings for a living about the WTC thermite theory.  Coincidentally( :shocked:), he tells me he brought home a huge chunk of magnesium, and in jest i told him he should whip up a batch of thermite since he could use the magnesium to ignite it.  He showed it to me yesterday and it was an actual part made of magnesium, I figured he had a raw chunk that they had at work for some reason but no, it was the end of a flap support, a triangle about 12 inches on a side and 2 inches thick.  So also realize that a boeing passenger jet has a lot of large pieces of magnesium all over the wings, used as supports for various flaps and stuff because it is a very light material.  This could explain alot of the "mysterious" flashes seen in the footage and it can certainly explain this:

[url=
3]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2991254740145858863[/url]


Magnesium burns at 4000 degree Fahrenheit.

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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: poll ..9/11 conspiracy theories... [Re: Viveka]
    #5796832 - 06/27/06 06:55 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I was reading that thread as it was happening. Those guys are smart about that stuff indeed. The science forum here is cool read. It gives a possible explanation for how the molten steal and thermite like residue was found on some of the steal from WTC1 and 2.

It still doesn't explain the explosions going on in the sub levels, how the thermite mixture got down into the the sub level maintenance room at the same time of the crash and disintegrated hydraulic equipment and turned the room into ruble. (this was witnessed by construction workers in the building at the time who thought bombs were planted in the sub levels like in the '93 attacks. They didn't even know about the planes until they got out of the sub levels which were immediately filling with white smoke they said.

The plane aluminum creating the thermite also doesn't explain why Tower 7 fell as it wasn't hit with an airplane.

It also doesn't match with why the Windsor Building in Spain, similar design to the towers yet, weaker steal beams were used, was hit by a plane, burned for 18 hours and didn't collapse. It should've under the other theories for what took the WTCs down.

Seuss and WS know their chemicals. :thumbup: What they came up with doesn't address other unanswered questions however.  :sad:

Oh , and to back what Kotik said, any theory I have read also states that most all politicians have no knowledge of anything conspirators are up too. Most everyone in the government is a pastie and puppet of sorts. They are given different reasons for why they are told to execute orders, ussually having to do with it being in the publics best interest. Most think they are doing good and serving in the publics best interests when they are often, just helping to set stages for other scenarios and keep stuff hidden.

Sometimes, the wrong person is let in on things and wants to expose something and its to easy to quiet them in one way or another. Its said by some JFK was assasinated because he was ready to blow the lid off of information he became privy too. It's said the Bush stealing the first election from Gore's orginal win over the "fiasco" in Florida was the result of Gore being not willing to go along with playing "the game".

People say that talk sounds paranoid or such things only exist in fantasy land. Get real. We've all been a part of it or witness to it on smaller scales. Siblings bribe, blackmail or threaten siblings to keep "secret doings" from Mom and Dad. Street gangs, drug dealers, and the mob silence people ready to turn states witness against them, one way or another if they can. The top powers can silence anyone with a harsh enough threat, large enough bribe, shredding pappers, discrediting them as being crazy or ......accidental death.

Black mail, bribery, threats, and murder are all a part of reality and the real worlds workings. Anyone who thinks such actions don't exist to keep "secret doings in the hush" is living in fantasy land.

In reality sometimes, we come to suspect someone is screwing with us behind our backs and it turns out to be true. Not all people looking "paranoid" of such things are wrong. One guy was putting cyanide in his business partners coffee to collect the insurance money.  The guy being poisoned eventually thought to ask a doctor to run a different set of blood test looking for chemical poisoning and to investigate his partner. He was getting really sick without explanation. Friends and family told him he was going nuts because his partner was such a "nice guy". He was right though and his partner is in jail for attempted murder.

True, conspiracy theories related to 9/11 may sound paranoid, or coming from fantasy land, however, this is real world stuff and humans who want wealth, power and or control and to live above the law and to stay out of jail, at any cost, are capable of it. We see it on the small scale every day. Why is the large scale exempt?

That's not evidence of anything related to 9/11. It is just obvious evidence of the reality we live in and what a portion of humans are capable of when they become consumed with greed and the need for power and control or in fear of being caught doing something wrong or illegal and being punished for it.

If Wealthy Global Leaders fit into that portion of humans in reality, what's the big shocking "no way it can be" surprise in that?

:peace: :heart:


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OfflinePhred
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Re: poll ..9/11 conspiracy theories... [Re: Aldous]
    #5797075 - 06/27/06 07:54 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Phred, don't think I'm begging or anything, but if you don't address the material thermate issue, people are going to think you have nothing to oppose to the evidence presented.




There is no "evidence" to oppose. There is no need for me to add anything to the comments by Seuss and Zappa. The guy found traces of sulfur? Big whoop. I'm sure there are also traces of potassium, tungsten, copper, lead, zinc, phosphorus, antimony, arsenic, tin, silver, and lots more besides.

That single photo of the beams is similarly meaningless. When was it taken? It certainly wasn't taken September 11. It's obvious from the look of the rubble that there had already been substantial clearing work done. That is NOT a photo of the untouched twisted pile of pickup sticks we all say just days after the attack. Did some of the clearup work involve cutting dangling beams precariously located? Of course it did.

Phred


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OfflineViveka
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Re: poll ..9/11 conspiracy theories... [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5797598 - 06/27/06 10:39 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

It still doesn't explain the explosions going on in the sub levels, how the thermite mixture got down into the the sub level maintenance room at the same time of the crash and disintegrated hydraulic equipment and turned the room into ruble.




What's your source for this?

Quote:

The plane aluminum creating the thermite also doesn't explain why Tower 7 fell as it wasn't hit with an airplane.



That would only be true if thermite was the only possible explanation for the collapse of 7WTC. Do you honestly believe this?

Quote:

It also doesn't match with why the Windsor Building in Spain, similar design to the towers yet, weaker steal beams were used, was hit by a plane, burned for 18 hours and didn't collapse.



The Windsor building wasn't hit with a plane. Are you thinking of a different building?

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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: poll ..9/11 conspiracy theories... [Re: Viveka]
    #5797947 - 06/28/06 12:08 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

To answer your first question, here is some of what people have said. You can read more at this link. It's just what people there when it happened have reported. thats all it is to me, more information to consider.

http://www.willthomas.net/Convergence/Weekly/WTC.htm

Quote:

PECORARO
Stationary Engineer Mike Pecoraro was also on duty in level B4. Surrounded by bedrock four levels down, he was grinding welds at 8:46 when his helper, Sergei Siletzky shook his shoulder.

“Did you see the lights flicker?” Siletzky asked again.

Pecoraro hadn’t. He told Siletzky to call the Assistant Chief, but the chief didn’t know what was happening. He ordered both men to “sit tight”.

They couldn’t. Acrid white smoke was filling their work area.

“We smelled kerosene,” Mike Pecoraro recounted.

When the men climbed up to C level, they found the machine shop a pile of rubble. A fuel fire could not have destroyed a 50-ton hydraulic press. But it was gone, just like the entire parking garage. On B Level, the shaken engineers found a massive steel and concrete fire door wrinkled like “aluminum foil” and lying on the floor.

It seemed unlikely that a flash fire from quickly burning fuel could have pulverized so much concrete, steel and heavy machinery. Having lived through the first FBI-assisted WTC bombing in 1991, Pecoraro was convinced another big bomb had gone off in the building. “They got us again,” he told Siletzky.

MORELLI
Back in the fourth sublevel of Tower 1, construction worker Phillip Morelli was thrown to the ground by two explosions. The first seemed to coincide with the plane crash. A second larger blast blew out the walls. Morelli staggered to the South Tower subbasement in time to be hit by another powerful underground blast. [www.ny1.com]

SURVIVORS GIVE FIRST UNEDITED TV INTERVIEWS
Software manager Teresa Veliz was on the 47th floor of the North Tower when Flight 11 hit. She describes the building shaking twice. “There were explosions going off everywhere. I was convinced that there were bombs planted all over the place and someone was sitting at a control panel pushing detonator buttons,” she later recalled for Dean E. Murphy’s September 11: An Oral History. [www.thememoryhole.org]

As the big networks arrived with their satellite trucks, one breathless man told an ABC camera crew how he’d managed to escape the Trade Center just as it fell. “We were stuck on the stairs for a while,” he told viewers. “I came down from the 85th floor. When we were just about to leave the building, there was a blast.”

In another unedited ABC live interview, two men who rescued a handicapped person from the burning North Tower said they heard an explosion as they exited the building. A woman survivor seconded: “I got stuck on the stairs. When we got to the lobby there was a blast.”

Corporate “news managers” quickly bleeped out all eyewitness references to “explosions” as too blasphemous for American ears, leaving the lips of interviewees flapping silently that had earlier breathed fire on the official version of events.

Reports of people surviving what they were calling “explosions” were quickly explained as “exploding gas mains”. But city engineers insisted that all gas mains in the area were turned off immediately after the first strike. [All Fall Down: The Politics of Terror and Mass Persuasion]

“It was mass chaos. The power went out. It was dark. Everybody was screaming,” recalled Louie Cacchioli, a veteran 51 year-old firefighter assigned to Engine 47. “I was taking firefighters up in the elevator to the 24th floor to get in position to evacuate workers. On the last trip up a bomb went off. We think there was bombs set in the building.”

Along with other evacuees Kim White reached the 74th floor when “another explosion” made them detour by another stairwell. [www.whatreallyhappened.com]

“It started exploding,” recalled Ross Milanytch. “It was about the 70th floor. And each second another floor exploded out for about eight floors, before the cloud obscured it all.” [NYT Sept 13/01]

Explosions on the 8th floor of the North Tower below other evacuees off their feet. “Blew us back into the eighth floor,” said one survivor. “It just went ba-boom, it was like a bomb went off, and it was like holy hell coming down them stairs, and then when we finally got to the bottom we were coming out ... and another explosion came...sent everyone flying..." [www.whatreallyhappened.com]




I don't understand your second question or what you are asking I beleive. I am just asking questions because I don't have beliefs set. If you have concluded that it was thermite made form the aluminum from the planes, that cut the steal and caused the collapse, then what was it that caused WTC 7 to collapse, if there was no aluminum plane in it burning Jet fuel to create the thermite?

Never in history has such a building collapsed due to a fire-NEVER. Makes one wonder and ask questions. That's all.

Last question-

My apologize about the Windsors fire being the result of a plane crash (hammered with to many stats lately reading dozens of links and watching movies). That buildings fire just raises questions to the governments version that the fire alone in WTC 1&2 took it down. The Windsor burnt for over 18 hours and didn't come down.

That is irrelevant to the theory of the planes aluminum melting and making thermite in WTC 1 and 2.

It was this C-130 plane crash into a ten story building in Tehran that did not collapse. If planes crashed into buildings can cut steal so quickly like in WTC 1&2, this one should've fell also. It didn't.


Quote:

The building remained standing but is a scorched shell.




http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4502966.stm

I'm not asking or telling you or anyone to believe anything. I am just asking questions and remain open to reviewing information and considering different answers.

My questions aside, I was still impressed with what Seuss and WS came up with about how thermite could've been made in WTC towers 1 and 2.

:peace: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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