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OfflinePhred
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Registered: 10/18/00
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Re: poll ..9/11 conspiracy theories... [Re: David_vs_Goliath]
    #5774779 - 06/20/06 11:36 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Kids in newyork highschools knew that the towers were going to fall before they did but the gov. didnt? highly unlikely.




Oh yes. Every imaginative comment made by school children is immediately reported to Big Brother, who then accepts them as hard intel and immediately and unerringly acts on them. Yeah... sounds pretty likely to me.

I don't know why so many people have such a hard time reading simple English.

What part of "What no one seems to recognize is that there was never -- at ANY point -- enough ACTIONABLE intelligence to do anything to stop the plan once it got under way absent a massive and prolonged violation of civil liberties" are you having difficulty understanding?



Phred


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OfflinePhred
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Registered: 10/18/00
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Re: poll ..9/11 conspiracy theories... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #5774972 - 06/21/06 12:31 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Annapurna1 seems also to be unable to understand the meaning of the word "actionable", as she brings up the vague-to-the-point-of-uselessness August 6 PDB.

There was an entire thread about this little beauty of a memo. Interested members can read the whole thing if they wish, or hop into it right about here when the discussion gets more detailed -- http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/2583209#Post2583209

Here's another thread detailing with a lot of the same subject matter -- http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/2551670#Post2551670




Phred


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
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Re: poll ..9/11 conspiracy theories... [Re: Phred]
    #5775079 - 06/21/06 01:00 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

there was never -- at ANY point -- enough ACTIONABLE intelligence to do anything to stop the plan once it got under way absent a massive and prolonged violation of civil liberties"





That can just as easily be argued as what made it so easy and convenient for our government, if not be partially behind it, to have at least allowed it to happen if it served other agendas.

Had 9/11 not happened, do you believe congress would have voted unanimously in support of the Iraqi invasion and that the majority of Americans at the time would've supported it?

The maneuvering to get in there happened to soon right after 9/11. How easy to gain public support for it when you can prey on the peoples fears that terrorists would next use Saddam's WPD on us in a future attack.

I do understand that when you look at each isolated piece of "evidence" crying foul, none alone hold up to much proof or evidence of anything.

When you add together all of the events (pieces) before, during and after the attack, over the span of the last eight years and look at them as one collective piece, a plausible story unfolds.


Who would want to believe that the people we trust with our national security and safety and empower with billions of our tax dollars could be capable of, or pawns of, something so cold and destructive?

This isn't the sort of thing that anyone wants to be true or wishes to be true.

I wish it was as simple as you claim it to be. Occam's razor, if applied heavily enough can shave anything away. Gotta appreciate how it works when you want to reduce something down to a size you can manage and handle.

While you have all of this whittled down to little meaningless pieces that add up to nothing, others are still looking at the big picture and I doubt posts like this are going to go away. Caskets full of American soldiers keep landing here to be buried every day and money that can be spent on education, medical and alternative energy research, is being used to destroy lives elsewhere. Why is this happening Phred and why are you still supporting it?


:peace: :heart:


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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OfflineEconomist
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Re: poll ..9/11 conspiracy theories... [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5775211 - 06/21/06 01:48 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
Quote:

there was never -- at ANY point -- enough ACTIONABLE intelligence to do anything to stop the plan once it got under way absent a massive and prolonged violation of civil liberties"





That can just as easily be argued as what made it so easy and convenient for our government, if not be partially behind it, to have at least allowed it to happen if it served other agendas.




I don't understand this.

Saying that an abscence of actionable intelligence *supports* the argument of a conspiracy is akin to saying that the abscence of proof of God supports the existence of God. In both cases there is noting logical about it, just belief.

What you've done, in essence, is taken the "intelligent design" argument and applied it to a 9/11 conspiracy instead of the existence of God.

You say "there might not be any one single piece of evidence that holds up to scrutiny, but surely everything must be part of a larger picture!" How is this any different from "there might not be any one proof of the existence of God that holds up to scientific inquirey, but given the total complexity of the universe, everything must be a part of a higher plan!"

You say that when you look at all the events, all the pieces of 8 years a plausible story emerges. But that's just what it is, a plausible story.

Well I have another plausible story:
Each and every one of us has on one occasion or another, experienced or known someone who experienced, something miraculously beneficial, which could not be explained. We happened upon a $20 bill abandoned on the sidewalk. We've narrowly missed a car crash, when we easily could have been hit by another driver over whom we had no control. A doctor was able to detect our illness months early, and we were saved from being permanently lame, blind, or even dead.

Sure, none of these events individually prove the existence of God. But if you add them all together a plausible story unfolds.

Who wants to believe that none of us are truly in control of our own destiny, that there might not be such a thing as free choice, that each and every one of us might be unable to deviate from some "higher plan"?

This is something that many find objectionable and would be unwilling to accept.

Without Occam's Razor to shave away the bits and pieces, we're forced to take these events as a whole. Miracles, small and large, happen to us all, and because of many of them we are all lucky enough to be here today. And that's not all, they keep happening. Each and every day, these "unexplainable events" continue. Without being able to scrutinize the individual pieces and say "this doesn't prove anything by itself" the idea of God suddenly seems like a great explanation.

I'm not trying to get anyone to believe/not believe in God, I'm simply demonstrating the logic behind the argument made by most of the 9/11 conspiracies. There's a reason that the euphemism "smoking gun" is in such common usage today; that being, without individual pieces of concrete evidence which stand up to scrutiny, any story seems plausible and nothing can be proven.

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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: poll ..9/11 conspiracy theories... [Re: Economist]
    #5775345 - 06/21/06 02:30 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I never said it was anything more then plausible.

And I don't see how you compared what I said to people debating the existence of God.

So what if laws were in play that made it impossible for the Feds or CIA to arrest anyone. Thats irrelevant.

If I were going to pull of the perfect crime, I would make sure I didn't break any laws leading up to it either.

If I were going to employ someone to rob from or burn down my home or business to collect the insurance money, I would also devise a plan that would insure I could in no way be held accountable for not doing anything to have stopped or prevented it from happening.

The comment of Phreds that I quoted is meaningless to counter the plausibility of a 9/11 conspiracy that involves our government or something else pulling it's strings.

Why act like all conspiracies are bunk? Did you forget about Enron and the bogus "energy crisis in California" that they conspired to make appear to be something it wasn't for their personal gain? Had Enron not fallen, and someone leaked out information that those power outages were planned, they would be called a conspiracy theorists too. They would have been sharing the truth though.

Of course all we have now is circumstantial evidence. Same with the governments version of the story. They have a bunch of slop as evidence for why they say they didn't have the Intel to know about the plan of attack, or couldn't coordinate what they did have in time to put the big picture together before hand. More slop related to the reasons we went into Iraq and the reasons for why we are still there.

Why is their circumstantial evidence and sloppy bits and pieces to support their stories any more plausible then what the conspiracy theorists have?

:peace: :heart:


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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InvisibleGijith
Daisy Chain Eater

Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2,400
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Re: poll ..9/11 conspiracy theories... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #5775346 - 06/21/06 02:31 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Official. I love conspiracy theories to no end, but I've yet to hear a 9/11 one that really stands up.


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what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?

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OfflineRosettaStoned
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Re: poll ..9/11 conspiracy theories... [Re: Phred]
    #5775355 - 06/21/06 02:42 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Do you deny able danger Phred?

Quote:

Representative Curt Weldon, vice chairman of the House Armed Services and House Homeland Security committees, gave a special orders speech on the House floor detailing Able Danger

Mr. Speaker, I rise because information has come to my attention over the past several months that is very disturbing. I have learned that, in fact, one of our Federal agencies had, in fact, identified the major New York cell of Mohamed Atta prior to 9/11; and I have learned, Mr. Speaker, that in September of 2000, that Federal agency actually was prepared to bring the FBI in and prepared to work with the FBI to take down the cell that Mohamed Atta was involved in New York City, along with two of the other terrorists. I have also learned, Mr. Speaker, that when that recommendation was discussed within that Federal agency, the lawyers in the administration at that time said, you cannot pursue contact with the FBI against that cell.




And this gem.

Quote:

In addition to asserting that Able Danger identified the 9/11 hijackers and was prevented from passing that information onto the FBI, Weldon also alleged the intelligence concerning Able Danger was provided to the 9/11 Commission and ignored. Two 9/11 Commission members, Timothy J. Roemer and John F. Lehman, both claimed not to have received any information on Able Danger




Relevant information was giving to the 9/11 commission and IGNORED? How the hell could they ignore that if their true objective was to discover the truth behind 9/11?

Congressman Curt Weldon issued a response to the 9/11 Commission statement.

Quote:

The 9/11 Commission has released multiple statements over the past week, each of which has significantly changed — from initially denying ever being briefed to acknowledging being briefed on both operation Able Danger and Mohammed Atta. The information was omitted primarily because they found it to be suspect despite having been briefed on it two times by two different military officers on active duty. Additionally, the 9/11 Commission also received documents from the Department of Defense on Able Danger




That proves without a doubt, that persons on a terrorist watch list, were known to be in florida going to a flight school. That also proves, that govt officials were going to move to arrest them, when they were stopped by higher ups and lawyers representing higher ups.

But most disturbing, that proves the very people who were appointed to explain to the public what happened (9/11 commission) have been caught in a lie, changed their story and claim information coming from 2 different active military officers is suspect???

But why don't we just dig up the able danger files and see what's on them for ourselves so we know what's what? Oh wait, we can't do that can we?

Quote:

On September 15, 2005 Weldon asserted that he had identified an employee who had been ordered to destroy the 2.5 terabytes (TB) of data collected by Able Danger two years before the 9/11 attack




So Phred, what is your first response? Attack the congressman's credibility right? Try again.

Quote:

After Weldon's assertions were disputed by the media, Lt. Col. Anthony Shaffer, a member of the Able Danger team, identified himself as Weldon's source. Shaffer claimed that he alerted the FBI in September 2000 about the information uncovered by the secret military unit "Able Danger," but he alleges three meetings he set up with bureau officials were blocked by military lawyers.




Hmm what happened to Shaffer for speaking out?

Quote:

Shaffer's lawyer, Mark Zaid, has revealed that Shaffer had been placed on paid administrative leave for what he called "petty and frivolous" reasons and had his security clearance suspended in March, 2004, following a dispute over travel mileage expenses and personal use of a work cell phone




Able Danger

Well this is getting long, but Phred asked for some links then ignored my reply with a link. Anyone that is "on the fence" about what the govt knew prior to 9/11 you need to look into this. Once you start digging the shit just keeps getting deeper and deeper. Don't swallow the garbage that people like Phred spew. Look for yourselves.

This is not the only incident of whistle blowing either. Others within the govt have also spoke out and have been retaliated against and threatened for doing so. They do NOT want information like this being repeated over and over on the news. They want it to be buried in time while we swallow their official story like good little school children.


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"Government big enough to provide you with all you need is also big enough to take everything you have." ~ Thomas Jefferson

"Without stupid, faggy potheads we wouldn't have wars." - Zappa

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OfflineAldous
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Re: poll ..9/11 conspiracy theories... [Re: Phred]
    #5775468 - 06/21/06 04:47 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
You really do have a reading comprehension problem, don't you?


No, I don't. You have a plain comprehension problem. If the info was all over Manhattan, surely FBI informants would have passed it on. I mean, if random schoolkids knew the details and passed them on randomly as was the case, and if rumours abounded in mosques as was the case, the intelligence was readily available to anyone extending out the smallest of antennae in Muslim circles, as the FBI routinely does. There was a strong convergent beam of info readily available, and several foreign intelligence services warned the US, but the FBI unfortunately failed to smell shit. Sure.

Quote:

What is the common thread of links 1 through 8? Apart from the fact that half of them could be sheer bullshit, I mean.


Sure, all those news sources are full of shit. Only a small selection of Phred-approved blogs are worth considering as the one and only Truth.

Quote:

But New York's Muslim community is not the US government.


And the FBI has way to much respect for New York's Muslim community to keep itself informed of what goes around in said community. Moreover, before 9/11, no-one could have suspected any danger whatsoever coming from Muslims, so why would the FBI have bothered anyway. Right Phred?

Quote:

That "Mossad" canard was debunked long ago.


Can you point a link to "long ago"? I must have been unconscious at the time.

Quote:

But let's pretend for the sake of argument that the Mossad did know all the details of the plan. The Mossad is not the US government. Do you not grasp that essential difference?


Yes I do, but you have to admit they are very close friends, to say the least. Absent all other elements, it would be plausible to assume that the Mossad knew and decided to stay put and let it happen in order to further Israel's agenda. But there are many other elements pointing to US foreknowledge, exposed here and elsewhere. So I would rather think the Mossad knew and gave the US specific warnings which the US ignored. There were two possible rationales for the Mossad to cheer on the attacks: either "That'll teach those deaf Americans a lesson about terrorism!" or "Yes! They're going to reinforce their presence in the Middle East and kick Saddam!" Probably both, although I would think those Mossad people had understood they let the attacks happen on purpose, so a) is less likely.

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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: poll ..9/11 conspiracy theories... [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5775530 - 06/21/06 05:42 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:

When you add together all of the events (pieces) before, during and after the attack, over the span of the last eight years and look at them as one collective piece, a plausible story unfolds.
...
While you have all of this whittled down to little meaningless pieces that add up to nothing, others are still looking at the big picture and I doubt posts like this are going to go away.





Quote:

RosettaStoned said:
Once you start digging the shit just keeps getting deeper and deeper. Don't swallow the garbage that people like Phred spew. Look for yourselves.






Exactly. There is SO much information out there that point towards government involvement. SO much. I bet that 90% of those who don't think there was government involvement didn't invest much personal time into investigating for themselves.


Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
Why is their circumstantial evidence and sloppy bits and pieces to support their stories any more plausible then what the conspiracy theorists have?





Ya seriously, and people don't realize that the official story is itself a conspiracy theory, according to the actual definition of what a "conspiracy theory" is.


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: poll ..9/11 conspiracy theories... [Re: Phred]
    #5775544 - 06/21/06 05:56 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Quote:

i think its safe to say, whatever your view, the official explanation is less than adequate. i hope we can all agree on that.




Afraid your hopes are dashed. We don't agree on that.





:omg:


Here's a list of a few ommisions, falsehoods, and contradictions contained within the 9/11 Comission Report, which, as you know, is the official version of the story. This list is not exhaustive.

Quote:

Omissions

The Report fails to acknowledge that no steel-framed high-rise building has ever collapsed due to fires.
The Report fails to mention the total collapse of 47-story steel-framed skyscraper Building 7 at 5:20 on the day of the attack.
The Report contains no mention of the interview in which the owner of Building 7 states that he and the Fire Department decided to "pull" Building 7 -- an apparent admission of a conspiracy to destroy the building and its contents.
The Report fails to mention the rapid removal and recycling of the structural steel from the collapsed World Trade Center buildings, even to make excuses for it.
The Report makes no mention of a statement by then-Mayor Rudolph Giuliani to Peter Jennings indicating he had foreknowledge of the collapses: "We were operating out of there when we were told that the World Trade Center was gonna collapse, and it did collapse before we could get out of the building."
The Report contains no mentions of eyewitness accounts of explosions preceding the collapse of South Towers.
The Report fails to mention that George W. Bush's brother, Marvin Bush, and his cousin, Wirt Walker III, were principals in the company that had the contract to provide security for the World Trade Center, Stratesec, nor does it mention the company.
The Report makes no mention of the fact that a new lessor took control of the World Trade Center complex just six weeks before the attack, obtained an insurance policy covering terrorist attacks, and successfully sued the insurance companies to obtain twice the multi-billion-dollar value of the policy.
The Report repeats the list of 19 suspects identified by the FBI within days of the attack, while failing to mention that six of them reported themselves alive after the attack.
The Report fails to mention any of the reports of behavior by the alleged hijackers before the attack that belie the official story that they were devout Muslims on a suicide mission for Allah.
The Report fails to mention that the published passenger lists contained no Arab names -- a fact publicized by skeptics of the official story.
The Report fails to ask why the plane that crashed into the Pentagon was not stopped by anti-aircraft missile batteries that presumably ring the building.
The Report fails to mention that no credible footage of the Pentagon attack has been made public, despite public knowledge that the FBI seized footage of the attack from nearby businesses.
The Report does not ask why the Secret Service did not obtain air cover for the President's motorcade from the Sarasota school to the airport, nor for Air Force One, which took off at about 9:54, until about 11:10.
The Report avoids mentioning several reports that government officials and business leaders received warnings and avoided targets of the attacks, including:
A warning by the FBI advising Attorney General John Ashcroft to avoid flying on commercial airlines.
The report that Pentagon officials suddenly canceled travel plans the evening before the attack.
The cancellation of plans by Ariel Sharon to attend an event in New York City on 9/11/01.
A warning to San Francisco Mayor Willie Brown to avoid flying.
The grounding of Salman Rushdie by Scotland Yard.
The Report avoids mentioning a warning received by employees of Odigo hours before the attack.
The Report does not mention that letters with weaponized anthrax were sent to the two most powerful senators attempting to slow the passage of the 9/11/01 attack-predicated USA PATRIOT Act.
The Report states that the Commission was "chartered to prepare a full and complete account of the circumstances surrounding the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks, including preparedness for and the immediate response to the attacks," but fails to mention that it makes no attempt to meet its charter.

Falsehoods

The Report's Notes state: "the interior core of the [Twin Towers] was a hollow steel shaft, in which the elevators and stairwells were grouped." In fact, the core structures were composed of bundles of steel columns numbering 47 and having outside dimensions of 16 by 36 inches.
The Report states that the "South Tower collapsed in ten seconds," when it actually took about 15 seconds. While one might expect that the Commission would overstate rather than understate the collapse time, the fact that the Commission did not even consider a collapse time within one second of the vacuum free-fall time of 9.2 seconds a problem for the official explanation is evidence that the Commission would endorse that explanation no matter what the facts.
Regarding the failure to promptly move George W. Bush from the known location of the Sarasota classroom, the Report states that "No one in the traveling party had any information during this time that other aircraft were hijacked or missing." Yet, according to evidence assembled by David Griffin, the Secret Service has open lines to the FAA, whose top operations people in the northeast corridor thought that as many as 11 planes had been hijacked. 2
The Report states: "The threat of terrorists hijacking commercial airliners within the United States -- and using them as guided missiles -- was not recognized by NORAD before 9/11." (The Report repeats the assertion three times.) Yet media reports, such as the USA Today article entitled "NORAD had drills of jets as weapons" describe pre-9/11 NORAD drills involving hijacked jetliners crashing into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. 3
The Report states: "The protocols did not contemplate an intercept. They assumed the fighter escort would be discreet, 'vectored to a position five miles directly behind the hijacked aircraft,' where it could perform its mission to monitor the aircraft's flight path." Yet the order referenced by the footnote for this statement (Order 7610.4J: Special Military Operations), states:
7-2-1. FACILITY NOTIFICATION

The FAA hijack coordinator will advise the appropriate center/control tower of the identification of the military unit and location tasked to provide the hijack escort. The center/control tower shall coordinate with the designated NORAD SOCC/ROCC/military unit advising of the hijack aircraft's location, direction of flight, altitude, type aircraft and recommended flight plan to intercept the hijack aircraft. The center/control tower shall file the coordinated flight plan. 4
To address the charge that Saudi nationals were flown out of the country before the post-9/11 flight ban was lifted, the Report states: "we found no evidence that any flights of Saudi nationals, domestic or international, took place before the reopening of national airspace on the morning of September 13, 2001." In fact national airspace was only open to commercial airliners on a case-by-case basis on September 13, 2001. It was not until September 15th that the skies were opened to general aviation (privately owned aircraft). 5 Yet the Lear Jet that flew Saudi nationals from Tampa, FL to Lexington, KY on September 13th was a private plane. 6

Contradictions

The Report notes that Hani Hanjour's pilot application was rejected, and that he was a "terrible pilot," on the one hand, but asserts that he was "operation's most experienced pilot," and piloted Flight 77 through a 330-degree spiral dive maneuver, on the other.
The Report explains that the suicide terrorists chose not to target a nuclear power plant because they "thought a nuclear target would be difficult because the airspace around it was restricted, making reconnaissance flights impossible and increasing the likelihood that any plane would be shot down before impact." (p 245) It fails to apply the same logic to their targeting of the Pentagon, which, being the heart of the US military, is presumably even better defended than a nuclear power plant.
The Report addresses the question of why George W. Bush remained in the publicly known location of the Sarasota school until 9:35 AM -- a half hour after the second Tower strike -- by relating that Bush "told us his instinct was to project calm, not to have the country see an excited reaction at a moment of crisis," (p38) and that the Secret service "told us they were anxious to move the President to a safer location, but did not think it imperative for him to run out the door." (p39) The Report implicitly accepts these explanations as satisfactory, thereby implying that for Bush to have taken any less than a half hour to leave the school would have required him to display an excited reaction and to "run out the door."




http://911research.wtc7.net/post911/commission/report.html


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: poll ..9/11 conspiracy theories... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #5775645 - 06/21/06 06:47 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Actually, I'm king of wondering which "official" version the poll is referring to: the Bush administration's version of it, or the 9/11 Commission's version of it. Because I think the latter supports the negligence theory.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: poll ..9/11 conspiracy theories... [Re: RosettaStoned]
    #5775886 - 06/21/06 09:33 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

RosettaStoned writes:

Quote:

Do you deny able danger Phred?




Did you bother to read the very link you provided? Although I have followed the Able Danger story from the very beginning, I went to your link and read it all again anyway. I guess you missed this --

Quote:

To date no electronic or paper document has showed that any connection was made to Atta before 9/11. No emails to and from the Able Danger team make any references to Atta, nor do any paper documents between the team and any other DoD teams or offices. No notes taken at any pre 9/11 meetings between the DoD and FBI, or interoffice DoD meetings, show any mention of Atta or a terrorist cell in New York.




And this --

Quote:

Curt Weldon gave a speech to the Heritage Foundation post 9/11 in 2002 with a chart showing how Mohamed Atta was connected to other 9/11 hijackers. This post 9/11 information is being incorrectly thought of as pre 9/11 information by the people interviewed. People who remember a meeting with a chart showing Atta are remembering the Heritage Foundation meeting or other post 9/11 meetings in which Weldon did display a chart showing Atta. [40]




These are just two of the reasons I never joined in on the finger-pointing going on in the several threads in this forum regarding the Abl Danger project. It is -- at best -- thinly sourced, there is no documentation available for independent verification.

Even if Weldon and Shaffer are 100% correct in everything they have stated (and not ALL their statements can be correct, since some of the statements directly contradict other of the statements) all it shows is that Military Intelligence knew that someone purported to be a member of Al Qaeda (Atta) had entered the US on a visa. They didn't know where he was and they didn't know what he was up to.

It bores me to have to keep repeating this, but do you still not grasp the concept of ACTIONABLE intelligence? Do you still not comprehend the meaning of the phrase "massive and ongoing wholesale violation of civil liberties"?

I suggest you click on the links to the previous PA&L threads dealing with this subject which I have provided and read through the discussion there. Then -- if you take exception to any of the points I presented in those threads -- call me on it.



Phred


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Offlinekotik
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Re: poll ..9/11 conspiracy theories... [Re: Phred]
    #5775887 - 06/21/06 09:33 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

simultaneous derision of that same government on the other hand:

"Those stumblebums and their puppetmasters couldn't pour piss out of a boot with the directions written on the sole."




ah, but theres where you are mistaken. my key belief is that they are not idiots, but in fact so fucking smart, that they realize that playing idiots is the best way to justify their tradgic actions.


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No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.

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OfflinePhred
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Re: poll ..9/11 conspiracy theories... [Re: Aldous]
    #5775906 - 06/21/06 09:46 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Aldous writes:

Quote:

If the info was all over Manhattan, surely FBI informants would have passed it on.




Assumes facts not in evidence.

1) The info was NOT all over Manhattan. It was claimed after the fact that a couple of schoolkids and a taxi driver made statements indicating they had some foreknowledge of some kind of impending attack.

2) What was there to pass on? Even if an "FBI informant" had passed it on to the FBI, what's he going to do with a statement like "something bad is going to happen"? Is he going to arrest a schoolkid and whap him upside the head with a rubber hose until the kid breaks and rats out the person who told him "something bad is going to happen"?

Quote:

There was a strong convergent beam of info readily available, and several foreign intelligence services warned the US, but the FBI unfortunately failed to smell shit. Sure.




I strongly suggest you read the two previous threads I linked. Do you not understand the concept of "massive and ongoing violations of civil liberties"?

Quote:

Absent all other elements, it would be plausible to assume that the Mossad knew and decided to stay put and let it happen in order to further Israel's agenda. But there are many other elements pointing to US foreknowledge, exposed here and elsewhere.




Actually, no there aren't. There were many hints and strong reasons to believe a major terrorist operation was in the works. I have never denied that. What I have always said is that with the information on hand prior to September 11 there was no realistic way -- absent a massive and ongoing violation of civil liberties -- to have foiled the plot in time.




Phred


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Re: poll ..9/11 conspiracy theories... [Re: Aldous]
    #5775959 - 06/21/06 10:12 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Aldous writes:

Quote:

Can you point a link to "long ago"? I must have been unconscious at the time.




Sure. From http://web.archive.org/web/2002080219431...van_020621.html


Quote:

Despite the denials, sources tell ABCNEWS there is still debate within the FBI over whether or not the young men were spies. Many U.S. government officials still believe that some of them were on a mission for Israeli intelligence. But the FBI told ABCNEWS, "To date, this investigation has not identified anybody who in this country had pre-knowledge of the events of 9/11."

Sources also said that even if the men were spies, there is no evidence to conclude they had advance knowledge of the terrorist attacks on Sept. 11. The investigation, at the end of the day, after all the polygraphs, all of the field work, all the cross-checking, the intelligence work, concluded that they probably did not have advance knowledge of 9/11," Cannistraro noted.
As to what they were doing on the van, they say they read about the attack on the Internet, couldn't see it from their offices and went to the parking lot for a better view. But no one has been able to find a good explanation for why they may have been smiling with the towers of the World Trade Center burning in the background. Both the lawyers for the young men and the Israeli Embassy chalk it up to immature conduct.

According to ABCNEWS sources, Israeli and U.S. government officials worked out a deal — and after 71 days, the five Israelis were taken out of jail, put on a plane, and deported back home.

While the former detainees refused to answer ABCNEWS' questions about their detention and what they were doing on Sept. 11, several of the detainees discussed their experience in America on an Israeli talk show after their return home.

Said one of the men, denying that they were laughing or happy on the morning of Sept. 11, "The fact of the matter is we are coming from a country that experiences terror daily. Our purpose was to document the event."





The five men were held in detention for more than two months. Some of them were placed in solitary confinement for 40 days, and some of them were given as many as seven lie-detector tests.




Phred


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Re: poll ..9/11 conspiracy theories... [Re: Economist]
    #5776121 - 06/21/06 11:23 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Economist said:
Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
Quote:

there was never -- at ANY point -- enough ACTIONABLE intelligence to do anything to stop the plan once it got under way absent a massive and prolonged violation of civil liberties"





That can just as easily be argued as what made it so easy and convenient for our government, if not be partially behind it, to have at least allowed it to happen if it served other agendas.




I don't understand this.

Saying that an abscence of actionable intelligence *supports* the argument of a conspiracy is akin to saying that the abscence of proof of God supports the existence of God. In both cases there is noting logical about it, just belief.

What you've done, in essence, is taken the "intelligent design" argument and applied it to a 9/11 conspiracy instead of the existence of God.

You say "there might not be any one single piece of evidence that holds up to scrutiny, but surely everything must be part of a larger picture!" How is this any different from "there might not be any one proof of the existence of God that holds up to scientific inquirey, but given the total complexity of the universe, everything must be a part of a higher plan!"

You say that when you look at all the events, all the pieces of 8 years a plausible story emerges. But that's just what it is, a plausible story.

Well I have another plausible story:
Each and every one of us has on one occasion or another, experienced or known someone who experienced, something miraculously beneficial, which could not be explained. We happened upon a $20 bill abandoned on the sidewalk. We've narrowly missed a car crash, when we easily could have been hit by another driver over whom we had no control. A doctor was able to detect our illness months early, and we were saved from being permanently lame, blind, or even dead.

Sure, none of these events individually prove the existence of God. But if you add them all together a plausible story unfolds.

Who wants to believe that none of us are truly in control of our own destiny, that there might not be such a thing as free choice, that each and every one of us might be unable to deviate from some "higher plan"?

This is something that many find objectionable and would be unwilling to accept.

Without Occam's Razor to shave away the bits and pieces, we're forced to take these events as a whole. Miracles, small and large, happen to us all, and because of many of them we are all lucky enough to be here today. And that's not all, they keep happening. Each and every day, these "unexplainable events" continue. Without being able to scrutinize the individual pieces and say "this doesn't prove anything by itself" the idea of God suddenly seems like a great explanation.

I'm not trying to get anyone to believe/not believe in God, I'm simply demonstrating the logic behind the argument made by most of the 9/11 conspiracies. There's a reason that the euphemism "smoking gun" is in such common usage today; that being, without individual pieces of concrete evidence which stand up to scrutiny, any story seems plausible and nothing can be proven.




theres alot of evidence that stands up to scrutiny..but IMO..prolly not enough to win a case in court...it is worth repeating..however..that stanley hiltons' lawsuit was not thrown out on a lack of evidence..but rather because of the constitutional mandate that only congress can try the defendants named in the suit...

i doubt that anyone will ever find the smoking gun..but that doesnt mean that the gun wasnt there...in this case..however..we have the next best thing ..a double motive...in addition to the "new pearl harbour" clause.. bush&co were also in deep shit from the enron scandal in 2001...


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Re: poll ..9/11 conspiracy theories... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #5776439 - 06/21/06 12:55 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Annapurna1 said:
theres alot of evidence that stands up to scrutiny..but IMO..prolly not enough to win a case in court...it is worth repeating..however..that stanley hiltons' lawsuit was not thrown out on a lack of evidence..but rather because of the constitutional mandate that only congress can try the defendants named in the suit...

i doubt that anyone will ever find the smoking gun..but that doesnt mean that the gun wasnt there...in this case..however..we have the next best thing ..a double motive...in addition to the "new pearl harbour" clause.. bush&co were also in deep shit from the enron scandal in 2001...




A double motive is the "next best thing"?

How about this "theory":

Franklin Delano Roosevelt was related through blood or marriage to eleven former US Presidents ( http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/presidents/32_f_roosevelt ), including Teddy Roosevelt, a close friend of Senator La Folette. The two of them conspired to split the Republican party in the 1912 election in an attempt to enact a progressive agenda for the first time, this attempt failed.

FDR's father, James Roosevelt was a manager of mining and railroad concerns, and was wealthy enough to conduct all of his business via a private railroad car, a major sign of wealth in the 1910s.

As early as 1924 FDR was pushing for social welfare measures, both locally, through his own governorship, as well as nationally. However, Calvin Coolidge, who subsequently won the presidency in the 1920s, was the most anti-Progressive President that America may have ever seen. ( http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1568/is_1998_Dec/ai_53260547 )

Then, suddenly, a "catastrophe" happened, if you want to call it that:
The Great Depression.

As early as 1932, the depression was actually turning around, almost all economic indexes posted gains by the first month of 1933, BEFORE the first month that FDR took office. And yet, somehow, FDR managed to "stretch" the Depression out for about 8 years. Prior to the depression, there was absolutely no chance that the anti-progressive congress of the United States (which had eagerly passed all of Calvin Coolidge's tax cuts during the 1920s) would have ever passed anything resembling New Deal legislation, and yet after the depression they happily approved the same agenda that FDR had been trying to get approved since 1924.

Not only that, but guess what was included in the FDR's "New Deal"? Railroad improvement grants and new mining licenses! Subsidies for the Roosevelt "family business" which had made James Roosevelt (FDR's father) his fortune.

Put this all together and a "plausible story" develops: FDR and his political connections (remember, he was related to 11 former presidents) CAUSED AND PROLONGED THE GREAT DEPRESSION.

This enabled him to pass the same social welfare agenda that he had been pushing since 1924, 5 years before the Stock Market crash! An agenda he never could have gotten through congress without the great Depression! Not only that, but what was included in the New Deal? Subsidies for the Roosevelt family businesses! Also, if all the indexes began recovery by the first month of 1933, why was additional New Deal legislation still necessary, as Roosevelt claimed, as late as 1937?

Now, I don't think that Roosevelt actually caused the great depression. But I hope this illustrates my previous points more obviously. No individual part of the above mentioned "theory" about Roosevelt stands up to scrutiny. There is a total abscence of a "smoking gun," despite the existance of a motive (indeed, a double motive if you take the railroad/mining subsidies into account).

The fact of the matter is that all the current conspiracy theories out there require a certain "leap of faith" to believe in them, and that is simply not good enough for me.

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Re: poll ..9/11 conspiracy theories... [Re: Economist]
    #5776641 - 06/21/06 01:49 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

The fact of the matter is that all the current conspiracy theories out there require a certain "leap of faith" to believe in them, and that is simply not good enough for me.




You have taken a leap of faith to believe in the story the government keeps telling us.

Don't you see, one way or the other, everyone has taken a leap of faith in what they have chosen to accept as a truth or evidence, including you?

No matter what any of us choose to accept is the truth, small or large, one thing remains obviously clear and indisputable to all of us.

The U.S. was attacked by terrorists on 9/11.

The U.S. government and military has and still is attacking Iraq and causing terror on its civilians.

Everyone in their own way has been asking why these things happened and still are. Everyone has been making sense of it in their own way.

My family and I have to share this planet with you the rest of you. I just hope that nothing is going so gravely ignored by the masses that the nature of these events are bound to keep repeating themselves on this planet.

I don't give a crap what the real reason was behind 9/11 or the real reason is behind this war in Iraq. NONE of them are acceptable, justifiable or rational to me.

Bunch of Big Babies these men with power are.

"Whiny Wah wah, you won't give our people back their holy land so we are going to fly your planes into your important buildings."

"Whiny Wah wah, Saddam won't let us in his country to play with him so we are going to invade it to show him who's boss."

The simple version is even ridiculous!

Humankind needs to grow up already!

No matter what version of the story anyone accepts, all of them senseless and ridiculous.

:peace: :heart:


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Re: poll ..9/11 conspiracy theories... [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5776708 - 06/21/06 02:07 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
You have taken a leap of faith to believe in the story the government keeps telling us.




No, I haven't.

I lived in Northern New Jersey in September of 2001. I knew people who went to work on the 11th and never came home again. I watched on live television 2 planes crash into the towers. I have seen videos of Osama Bin Laden taking credit for 9/11 and threatening to do it again.

These are all examples of smoking guns. There is an exceedingly large amount of news footage, private videos, and eye witness accounts of 2 planes hitting 2 towers, the towers catching on fire and collapsing. There have been numerous statements issued by Al Queda, video, audio, or otherwise taking credit for the attacks and even threatening more.

NONE of the conspiracy theories even come close to this level of evidence, and that is something that the initial account has over all of them.

Where is the concrete evidence, the taped confessions, the video footage of bombs being placed in the towers. What documents have been released containing (as Phred has repeatedly stated) ACTIONABLE intelligence that was not acted upon. Give me proof!

The government has news footage and Bin Laden's own statements as proof of a certain chain of events.

You're right about one aspect, it does take a certain leap of faith to believe that the intelligence community was incapable of stopping the attacks (either through gross negligence or a genuine lack of intelligence). But this is no more a leap of faith than the belief that they were capable and chose not to, or even more ridiculous, that they planned the whole thing.

So, when we look at the parts of the story that do not require any leap of faith at all, i.e. planes hit towers, towers fell, al queda says they did it, this comes a heck of a lot closer to the government's story than ANY of the conspiracy theories out there right now.

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Re: poll ..9/11 conspiracy theories... [Re: Economist]
    #5776767 - 06/21/06 02:32 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Of course you, nor any of us have verifyable reason to believe that an arrangement was made for Bin Laden to take the credit and that our government would insure his freedom and safety in exchange for it.

Do you question why it is that we haven't found and caught him yet, though we have the technological capabilities to send rovers to explore microbes on the planet mars?

Did you forget that the Bush's and the Bin Laden's are old family friends?

All circumstantial indeed. I totally agree that it is and I know that it is.

The government tells us that Bin Laden is the sole original conceiver, planner and organizer of the 9/11 attacks, because Bin Laden made claims and admissions to that on video tape and they have that evidence.

That is the simple and plain WHOLE truth of the case and nothing else that the government presents. You choose to accept that and only that as the whole truth until someone else publicly admits to something else otherwise.

That's fine.

Some of us look at the vast body of circumstantial evidence which suggests to us that what the government has presented to us as the whole truth, is only a partial truth of the whole truth.

I have reasonable doubts that what they have told us is the whole truth. It appears that I am not the only one.

:peace: :heart:


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