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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
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Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
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Re: poll ..9/11 conspiracy theories... [Re: Redstorm]
    #5772025 - 06/20/06 10:40 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I AM serious.

And no, it was not CLEAR that those taking flight training were terrorists. The ones taking flight training were on no watch lists and had broken no laws. The ones taking flight training were in the country legally so couldn't even be kicked out on immigration violations.

I ask again -- under which law(s) in place in 2001 could they have been expelled from the schools?




Phred


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OfflineDavid_vs_Goliath
Informer
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Registered: 04/01/06
Posts: 208
Loc: Chicago
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Re: poll ..9/11 conspiracy theories... [Re: Phred]
    #5772234 - 06/20/06 11:40 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

here's a really good website with timelines leading up to the attacks. This is a HUGE amount of research and takes a while to go through, but check out a few of the sections. They look at the attack from every angle, going back 20/30 years. If you don't want to check everything else, look at the section called insider trading, and all the stuff on the day of.


http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/project.jsp?project=911_project


--------------------
"People living deeply have no fear of death."
"Love the animals, love the plants, love everything. If you love everything, you will perceive the divine mystery in things. Once you perceive it, you will begin to comprehend it better every day. And you will come at last to love the whole world with an all-embracing love."
"Our problems are man-made, therefore they may be solved by man. No problem of human destiny is beyond human beings."

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OfflineAldous
enthusiast
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Registered: 10/19/99
Posts: 980
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Re: poll ..9/11 conspiracy theories... [Re: Phred]
    #5772832 - 06/20/06 03:19 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
But could it have been STOPPED given the information available at the time, under the legal restrictions in place at the time, under the political climate which prevailed at the time? Nope.


Now that's bullshit, and here's why.

First off, the everyday air force protection should have been largely enough to stop the Pentagon plane at the very least.

But that's not where I want to get. What I want to stress here, is that a significant portion of the Arab and Middle Eastern community in New York and elsewhere knew exactly what was going to happen (link , link 2, link 3, link 4, link 6, link 7, link 8), and that it is a positive fact that the Mossad knew exactly what was going to happen when and where.

Are you arguing that with all this info around, the CIA and the FBI etc. were completely ignorant of the impending attacks and could not effectively protect American air space and airlines, and that you don't even label this incompetence, let alone worse?

Hmm.

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OfflineRosettaStoned
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Registered: 05/29/06
Posts: 540
Loc: North America
Last seen: 16 years, 9 days
Re: poll ..9/11 conspiracy theories... [Re: Aldous]
    #5772905 - 06/20/06 03:37 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Where's the smiley face that has his fingers in his ears while humming "nah nah na nah nah".

This is what true believers of the official story do, plug their ears. It's sad really. There is far too much evidence out there showing that the FBI was monitoring some of the hijackers every moves, then went to nab then and pentagon lawyers and top pentagon brass stepped in and prevented it. Why? The FBI was well within the laws to grab them and it would have been a very simple matter to do so. And last time I checked the CIA was not a watchdog agency to make sure the FBI followed the laws. That's what our courts were suppose to be for.

Then you have some FBI agents having them and their families life threatened if they didn't back off. The pentagon didn't want the hijackers bothered, period. They wanted them to do whatever they had plans on doing here without interruption. And if you cannot see what is right in front of you, then your head is buried deep in the sand.

Oh wait, do I get a tinfoil hat now?  :rolleyes:


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"Government big enough to provide you with all you need is also big enough to take everything you have." ~ Thomas Jefferson

"Without stupid, faggy potheads we wouldn't have wars." - Zappa

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OfflinePhred
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Registered: 10/18/00
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Re: poll ..9/11 conspiracy theories... [Re: Aldous]
    #5772981 - 06/20/06 03:59 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

What I want to stress here, is that a significant portion of the Arab and Middle Eastern community in New York and elsewhere knew exactly what was going to happen (link , link 2, link 3, link 4, link 6, link 7, link 8)...




You really do have a reading comprehension problem, don't you?

What is the common thread of links 1 through 8? Apart from the fact that half of them could be sheer bullshit, I mean. The commonality is that this information was not available to the US government. Re-read what I said about actionable intelligence. Maybe some of New York's Muslim community did have some advance warning. It's not an impossibility. But New York's Muslim community is not the US government. Do you not grasp that essential difference?

Quote:

...and that it is a positive fact that the Mossad knew exactly what was going to happen when and where.




That "Mossad" canard was debunked long ago. But let's pretend for the sake of argument that the Mossad did know all the details of the plan. The Mossad is not the US government. Do you not grasp that essential difference?



Phred


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
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Re: poll ..9/11 conspiracy theories... [Re: RosettaStoned]
    #5772991 - 06/20/06 04:02 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

There is far too much evidence out there showing that the FBI was monitoring some of the hijackers every moves, then went to nab then and pentagon lawyers and top pentagon brass stepped in and prevented it.




Bullshit. I call you on that. Let's see some links to credible sources on that assertion.

Quote:

Then you have some FBI agents having them and their families life threatened if they didn't back off.




More bullshit. Links, please.




Phred


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OfflineRosettaStoned
Stranger

Registered: 05/29/06
Posts: 540
Loc: North America
Last seen: 16 years, 9 days
Re: poll ..9/11 conspiracy theories... [Re: Phred]
    #5773109 - 06/20/06 04:34 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Hello Able Danger?

Maybe I'll dig up some more links later, don't have time at the moment.


--------------------
"Government big enough to provide you with all you need is also big enough to take everything you have." ~ Thomas Jefferson

"Without stupid, faggy potheads we wouldn't have wars." - Zappa

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Invisibleniteowl
GrandPaw
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Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
Loc: Flag
Re: poll ..9/11 conspiracy theories... [Re: Phred]
    #5773188 - 06/20/06 05:08 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Let's see some links to credible sources on that assertion.




:lolz0rz:

Isn't it amazing how, credibility (like beauty) is in the eye of the beholder.

Many times people have coughed up links, to back up their story, just to have you cry "That link has no credibility"


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future

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InvisibleClean
the lense
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Re: poll ..9/11 conspiracy theories... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #5773423 - 06/20/06 06:11 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
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Registered: 10/18/00
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Re: poll ..9/11 conspiracy theories... [Re: niteowl]
    #5773451 - 06/20/06 06:18 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Isn't it amazing how, credibility (like beauty) is in the eye of the beholder.




Yes it is. The tinfoil hat brigade accept as credible anyone who knows how to make a post to the internet.

As a prime example of this (I couldn't have arranged this more perfectly if I had set this up myself) -- look at Clean's post immediately above this one.




Phred


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: poll ..9/11 conspiracy theories... [Re: Phred]
    #5773785 - 06/20/06 07:36 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

So, please tell us, oh sifter of internet lies and deception, which sites are deemed worthy of your praise.

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Invisiblenewuser1492
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104
Re: poll ..9/11 conspiracy theories... [Re: niteowl]
    #5773898 - 06/20/06 08:07 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

The problem was that the US at that time believed they would act honorably -- that they would appreciate the assistance they...




So why doesn't the government help reduce the likelihood of further aggressive actions against the US by ending its theft of my money?

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OfflineSlapnutRob
Toolhead

Registered: 03/31/03
Posts: 520
Loc: Michigan
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
Re: poll ..9/11 conspiracy theories... [Re: newuser1492]
    #5774164 - 06/20/06 09:16 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I voted "other." I used to be more skeptical, but I now believe that the government was in fact behind it. I didn't vote the other option because I think saying "Bush and co." isn't accurate because Bush is a puppet. It should just be "and co."

Nobody should even be allowed to form an opinion on this until they either do some exhaustive research or watch either "9/11: In Plane Site" or "Loose Change." Google the latter and watch it now for free. It'll blow your mind.


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Anything stated above is fictional roleplay dialog by the character that is Slapnut Rob, in no way representing the actions or beliefs of the man behind the keys.

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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
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Registered: 10/18/00
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Loc: Dominican Republic
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Re: poll ..9/11 conspiracy theories... [Re: SlapnutRob]
    #5774228 - 06/20/06 09:29 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

There has been plenty of debunking of both those pieces of claptrap in this forum.




Phred


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Offlinekotik
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Re: poll ..9/11 conspiracy theories... [Re: Phred]
    #5774248 - 06/20/06 09:33 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

i think its safe to say, whatever your view, the official explanation is less than adequate. i hope we can all agree on that.


--------------------
No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.

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OfflinePhred
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Registered: 10/18/00
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Re: poll ..9/11 conspiracy theories... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #5774360 - 06/20/06 09:58 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

What I find so amusing about all these "the government knew" soapboxers is the glaringly obvious contradiction of superiority complex on the one hand --

"Hey, the US government MUST have known, because let's face it -- we Americans are so all-knowing, so all-powerful, and just so invincible it's inconceivable some furriners could have punked us. There is no WAY they could have pulled that off without us being in on it."

-- and the simultaneous derision of that same government on the other hand:

"Those stumblebums and their puppetmasters couldn't pour piss out of a boot with the directions written on the sole."

Sorry to burst your bubble, folks, but this time the black hats won. They did enough things right to pull off THE most spectacular piece of political theater in the history of mankind. The plan was brilliant in its conception, elegant in its simplicity, and virtually flawless in its execution. The psychological impact was devastating. It literally changed the course of history -- in a huge way.

The only thing that could possibly have gone better for them was the timing. The original plan called for near-simultaneous impacts, but the delay in Flight 93's departure allowed the passengers on that flight to hear what was going on that day and throw a monkey wrench into things.

Apart from that, however, the attack was flawless. Hard to imagine, really, how it could have been improved upon.

This is why I have to shake my head at all the incredibly complex, elaborate, and convoluted conspiracy theories some people swallow whole -- the unnoticed planting of hundreds of explosive charges in two of the busiest buildings in the world, the spiriting away of an airliner and replacing it with a missile, then somehow sneaking in the flight recorders and bodies and engine parts and landing gear from that disappeared aircraft to make it look like it had actually hit the Pentagon -- the shooting down of flight 93 by military jets...

Just why is it so hard to accept the fact that a bunch of fanatics pulled off something that is not particularly difficult to do -- the hijacking of a commercial airliner? There have been DOZENS of freaking hijackings over the years. The only difference is that this time they hijacked four at once rather than four in succession, and rather than force the pilots to fly them somewhere and land them, they flew them and "landed" them themselves. This isn't a particularly difficult feat, technically speaking.




Phred


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
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Registered: 10/18/00
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Re: poll ..9/11 conspiracy theories... [Re: kotik]
    #5774388 - 06/20/06 10:04 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

i think its safe to say, whatever your view, the official explanation is less than adequate. i hope we can all agree on that.




Afraid your hopes are dashed. We don't agree on that.

What happened was pretty simple -- a gang of hijackers successfully hijacked some airliners. Certainly wasn't the first time. The official explanation is certainly perfectly adequate to explain what happened. The reason the hijackings weren't prevented is the same reason none of the other dozens of past hijackings were prevented either -- the perpetrators kept their plans secret enough long enough to pull it off. So the official explanation is adequate on that front, too.




Phred


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OfflineDavid_vs_Goliath
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Re: poll ..9/11 conspiracy theories... [Re: Phred]
    #5774672 - 06/20/06 11:13 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

phred if you are going to keep argueing about the knowledge of the government beforehand, check out the link I posted on page 3 with timelines of information. Kids in newyork highschools knew that the towers were going to fall before they did but the gov. didnt? highly unlikely.

A student of a new york high school stood up in class, pointed out the window and told the teacher that building wont be standing next week.


--------------------
"People living deeply have no fear of death."
"Love the animals, love the plants, love everything. If you love everything, you will perceive the divine mystery in things. Once you perceive it, you will begin to comprehend it better every day. And you will come at last to love the whole world with an all-embracing love."
"Our problems are man-made, therefore they may be solved by man. No problem of human destiny is beyond human beings."

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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: poll ..9/11 conspiracy theories... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #5774727 - 06/20/06 11:24 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I'm surprised no-one has mentioned the IRA and FARC connection.

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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: poll ..9/11 conspiracy theories... [Re: Phred]
    #5774729 - 06/20/06 11:25 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

i dont necessarily dispute the role of al-Q agents in the execution of the attacks..despite the fact that mohammed attas' passport appeared on nationwide TV.. in pristine condition.. a few minutes afterward...

the govt did..however..have at least a partial advance warning as the infamous PDB of 6 august 2001..nebulously entitled .."bin laden determined to strike in US"...a year earlier..the bush-administration-in-waiting published rebuilding americas' defenses..which contains the equally infamous "new pearl harbour" clause on p63 ..

Quote:

Further, the process of transformation,
even if it brings revolutionary change, is
likely to be a long one, absent some
catastrophic and catalyzing event – like a
new Pearl Harbor.




and no..phred..this doesnt come from any moonbat conspiracy theory sites..but straight from horses' mouth...it is also worth pointing out that the PDB lought above is the one released by bush&co and may or (prolly) may not be what bush actually received...in the latter case..the original was likely far more incriminating...

so we know that by 6 august 2001..bush&co knew that an attack was coming..although not the specific details.. and we also know that they had a motive to LIHOP the attack.. they even said it themselves...

i have been called a "moonbat" simply for voting LIHOP..and there are actually more MIHOP votes...but even though i voted LIHOP..i still believe that al-Q is simply an emmanuel goldstein front..in which case anything they do becomes a MIHOP...and even if al-Q isnt a front..any reasonable 9/11 investigation must first ask the qui bono? question...any jerkwater PD would do so..but when its the FBI..and their under the auspices of bush&co..and if bush&co did it..do the math...

EDIT ..also of interest is stanley hiltons' lawsuit..which was dismissed not on lack of evidence..but because of the "sovereign immunity" of the defendants...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

Edited by Annapurna1 (06/20/06 11:35 PM)

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