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OfflineIamthewalrus
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as a painkiller
    #5766976 - 06/19/06 06:39 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

was reading wikipedia's EXCELLENT info on lsd and I came across this

"LSD was studied in the 1960s by Eric Kast as a painkiller for serious and chronic pain caused by cancer or other major trauma.[13] Even at low (sub-psychedelic) dosages, it was found to be at least as effective as traditional opiates while being much longer lasting (pain reduction lasting as long as a week after peak effects had subsided). Kast attributed this effect to a decrease in anxiety. This reported effect is being tested (though not using LSD) in an ongoing (as of 2006) study of the effects of the hallucinogen psilocybin on anxiety in terminal cancer patients."

I find this very interesting considering the fact that I just used lsd to deal with opiate withdrawl recently


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OfflineCepheus
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Re: as a painkiller [Re: Iamthewalrus]
    #5767096 - 06/19/06 07:51 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I saw it on house :wink:_

He injected himself with some shit to give him a migraine and used some experimental antidote to try and get rid of it. In the end he just ate some acid :grin:

Wonder if it works as good as ketamine =/


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Offlineeris
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Re: as a painkiller [Re: Iamthewalrus]
    #5767200 - 06/19/06 08:22 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

That's interesting. In my personal experience, I find that some psychedelics can intensify pain or discomfort - not so much LSD as some others though.
I think it depends on the state of mind and individual, as everyone is unique.


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OfflineIamthewalrus
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Re: as a painkiller [Re: eris]
    #5767484 - 06/19/06 10:08 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

tru


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Offlinetwiggedoubt
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Re: as a painkiller [Re: Iamthewalrus]
    #5770299 - 06/19/06 10:59 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

LSD would never work as a painkiller, too many undesired effects, they have many other chemicals that would "kind of work", but they get send to the crapper cause they arean't worth getting sued over. LSD is also very unpredictible. It might help some people, but most people would just wig the fuck out. The general population and LSD isn't a good combo.


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OfflineMauiGanjaMonster
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Re: as a painkiller [Re: twiggedoubt]
    #5770841 - 06/20/06 12:33 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

(The general population and LSD isn't a good combo.)


True it takes a certain somthing in a person to really understand the wonders of acid, that the general community cannot, Because they think it makes you wig out and feel like you can fly and jump off a building,

Now in all my experince with LSD, While I was frying on it, I think the sheer thought of jumping off a building is horiffic.

Sad what has been installed in alot of peoples mind's.


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OfflineIamthewalrus
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Re: as a painkiller [Re: MauiGanjaMonster]
    #5772189 - 06/20/06 11:29 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

ya I've never had any will to jump off anything either...not only that I'm fully aware that I'm just hallucinating...I'm not delusional(which the wikipedia entry on lsd actually talks about as well) but again it depends on the person

one of the reasons I find this so interesting is because I've often said that lsd disolves my anxiety(and has a lasting effect well beyond the night I use it) and I also think this drop in anxiety during withdrawl(which is a VERY anxious time wheather u have a disorder or not) has a lot to do with my ability to withstand the pain...so far lsd is the best medication I have used for anxiety(even when on it I start tackling things I wouldn't have even considered before the dose)


Edited by Iamthewalrus (06/20/06 11:32 AM)


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OfflineIamthewalrus
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Re: as a painkiller [Re: twiggedoubt]
    #5773229 - 06/20/06 05:22 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

not only that they mentioned the same effecst at (subpsychedelic) doses which remeinds me of the theory behind migraine and cluster headaches(I know someone who got addicted to opiates for that exact reason and had to detox eventually)

and I think with truthful HONEST info on drugs from the US government presented in a way that ppl can understand could help ease ppl's fears and also provide a lot of valuable info for those willing to seak it out


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OfflineIamthewalrus
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Re: as a painkiller [Re: Iamthewalrus]
    #5773238 - 06/20/06 05:25 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I tried to explain to a friend the benefits of psychedelics for migraines(which she has almost everyday) and offered for her to look into it...but I think I scared her off...oh well I was just trying to help(even mentioned to start VERY VERY Small and work up everyweek till she found her right level) shes done drugs in teh past but dosen't seem interested in ANYTHING after her opiate addiction which is understandable


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Invisiblekaniz
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Re: as a painkiller [Re: Iamthewalrus]
    #5773279 - 06/20/06 05:41 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

note the sub-psychedelic dosage part. Even at doses that do NOT cause psychedelic expierences, it can be used as a pain killer.


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OfflineIamthewalrus
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Re: as a painkiller [Re: kaniz]
    #5773364 - 06/20/06 05:59 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

exactly waht I noted...and this was fairly high end reserach before the illegalization(if the article is 100% true...but u have to admit most the info on wiki concerning lsd is spot on) don't sense any bias(if anything a bias towards it)


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OfflineIamthewalrus
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Re: as a painkiller [Re: twiggedoubt]
    #5773392 - 06/20/06 06:05 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

see I don't mean any offence but u have never used lsd to treat an anxiety disorder unless I misunderstood u....and I'm telling u...there is NOTHING that has been able to disolve those barries for a lasting emount of time for me which didn't really dull pain...just completely changed my prospective on it....the migraine/cluster headache treament is really completely differnce...I don't think its just a reduction in anxity whic h is helping but its always possible


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Invisiblekaniz
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Re: as a painkiller [Re: Iamthewalrus]
    #5773404 - 06/20/06 06:07 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I found that a LSD trip actually helped me deal with my anxiety. For awhile, I was getting anxiety attacks and was on Ativan for them. A strong LSD trip one day helped me come to terms with my anxiety/the source of it - and have helped me in coping with it without the need for medication.


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Re: as a painkiller [Re: Iamthewalrus]
    #5773470 - 06/20/06 06:23 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

heffter.org has been supporting alot of research of similar nature.  :smirk:


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OfflineIamthewalrus
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Re: as a painkiller [Re: kaniz]
    #5773471 - 06/20/06 06:23 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

exactly my thoughts...I've yet to find something even CLOSE to lsd with shrooms(tho lsd alone seems pretty damn good on its own at high doses) the problem with this...without being around a shrink to guide u and pull u out when its needed to be done...it keeps it from its potenial for most users...which is one of the reasons I like to research drugs I'm doing...btw I used A LOT of acid(partly for testing tolerance ::P) within the last couple weeks...my tolerance drops extremely fast and the effects are just unmatched imo so far(have had nothing but possitive trip after positive trip as well...I hihgly believe in mixing a "normal dose" of methyphenidate(its been studied with success) and really seems to provide an very clear and sharp experience(almost seems to provide a safter dopamine reuptake inhibitor for that speed/mental focus/confident part of the trip instead of mdma...but I could be wrong and if I am point it out please :smile:)


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Re: as a painkiller [Re: Iamthewalrus]
    #5774645 - 06/20/06 11:06 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I didn't read the the part that said they were lower then recreational doses, I still think that it wouldn't be an ideal pain medication for anything other than cluster headaches, which would probally work well for (they already use ergot). LSD is schedule 1 and no matter how good it works, it would be too expensive, too contraversial, and too risky for any company to even touch. Not to mention that it would be able to be used by other companies. I really didn't read the article, I read something about LSD as a pain medication on MAPS I think a few years ago, but I really don't remeber anything. I still think its probally too inconsistent, even in sub-psychedelic doses. Isn't 100 ugs sub-psychedelic? I thought that 400 ugs was a psychedelic dose. Either way, I would rather take acetametaphen for mild pain, and for extreme pain, they already know that opiates are ideal because the mechanics of the drug on the brains endorphin receptors. An unaddictive opioid or combination is what I would like to see. There is middle ground though, don't know is LSD is that good of a pain medication though, as I never took it for pain. I would like to see a study with real people, with real controls by people without motives, but still not enough information to really conclude anything other than LSD might be good for pain. Unless I am missing some part of the article that they actually did extensive studying on humans with it as a pain medication.


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OfflineIamthewalrus
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Re: as a painkiller [Re: motaman]
    #5775356 - 06/21/06 02:42 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

thx man


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OfflineIamthewalrus
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Re: as a painkiller [Re: twiggedoubt]
    #5775359 - 06/21/06 02:45 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

if enough research is done throughout the world and becomes common in other countrys wiht very good success who knows...maybe the us will finally smartent the fuck up...I have no offence against americans...but your drug laws are beyond fucked up(I would never even consider living there)


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OfflineIamthewalrus
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Re: as a painkiller [Re: motaman]
    #5775366 - 06/21/06 02:49 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

good link motaman! appreciate it!


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OfflineIamthewalrus
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Re: as a painkiller [Re: twiggedoubt]
    #5775386 - 06/21/06 03:03 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

twiggedoubt said:
I didn't read the the part that said they were lower then recreational doses, I still think that it wouldn't be an ideal pain medication for anything other than cluster headaches, which would probally work well for (they already use ergot). LSD is schedule 1 and no matter how good it works, it would be too expensive, too contraversial, and too risky for any company to even touch. Not to mention that it would be able to be used by other companies. I really didn't read the article, I read something about LSD as a pain medication on MAPS I think a few years ago, but I really don't remeber anything. I still think its probally too inconsistent, even in sub-psychedelic doses. Isn't 100 ugs sub-psychedelic? I thought that 400 ugs was a psychedelic dose. Either way, I would rather take acetametaphen for mild pain, and for extreme pain, they already know that opiates are ideal because the mechanics of the drug on the brains endorphin receptors. An unaddictive opioid or combination is what I would like to see. There is middle ground though, don't know is LSD is that good of a pain medication though, as I never took it for pain. I would like to see a study with real people, with real controls by people without motives, but still not enough information to really conclude anything other than LSD might be good for pain. Unless I am missing some part of the article that they actually did extensive studying on humans with it as a pain medication.




curious...have u ever delt with unbareable pain such as cancer(not just physical but emotional?) because unless u have ur experience dosen't really apply here(espeically considering ur taking tylenol for pain...if you've ever had SEVERE pain I think u would understand that otc meds(and even perscription meds often don't do much for pain and even if they do they cause more emotional pain for most in the end(opiates mostly) anyways(I've seen this happen to so many pp)

besides I'm not implying its gonna become a standard for pain...but at LEAST pyschedelics are being tested again for disorders


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Re: as a painkiller [Re: Iamthewalrus]
    #5775525 - 06/21/06 05:38 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

100ugs is a psychedelic dose - hell, its a common dose. 400ugs is getting into a fairly strong dose. A threshold dose is around 20ug, so a sub-psychedelic dose would probably be less than that.

I find it interstng how twigg is just so quick to write it off.

Yes, right *NOW* there is no chance it'll ever be used as a painkiller due to its illegal status. However the research that went into it is interesting. There are lots of medical and legit uses for LSD, even in non-recreational dosages, however sadly due to the stigma of the drug and its schedeuald status, they wont be able to be explored.

And, as the article said - Eric Kast /did/ do research on it and found it to be more effective than Opiates, this research was probably done while it was still legal.


Edited by kaniz (06/21/06 05:43 AM)


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OfflineIamthewalrus
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Re: as a painkiller [Re: kaniz]
    #5776555 - 06/21/06 01:29 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

yep it was! :smile:


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Re: as a painkiller [Re: Iamthewalrus]
    #5776669 - 06/21/06 01:57 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I really don't trust the motives of a lot of people that make claims about the wonders of certain psychedelics. Many times they really do it for their own motives, mainly legitamising psychedelics in the medical community. The same is true for marijuana, though I think it actually does have some uses that should be addressed, I really don't see how people are making claims about it helping cure cancer, or some of the other claims. Not saying it might not help, but to make these claims you really need extensive testing. Almost always, this is not the case. People report early findings that have anything to do with psychedelics or marijuana and people read into it like its the gospel. Unless you have a study with at the very least hundreds of people with controls, it is a theory, or at best an educated guess. I am not going to say LSD might not have potential, I can't make that claim, their is no raw data to look at for anyone to make a guess. As for me being in horrible pain, I had a staft infection on my neck that grew to the size of a baseball, it hurt like hell and I have had various other painful injuries. The most painful of all the problems I have had would have to be getting a root canal, the dentist fucking it up to the point that my gums got infected, and I ripped the filling out of my head with a pair of pliers because it hurt so much. I had no pain medication for that. As I said though, there is middle ground, something that tylenol won't help, but at the same time opiates are too dangerous. Of course I will admit, I do have an agenda, as I have a bias towards opiates, I think they work better than anything for pain. This isn't because of experience either, as I haven't tried every other drug out there. The fact that you even posted this here, and I haven't seen any other posts about potential medications leaves me to believe you too have a bias, as well as an agenda. I would love to see pain medication become anti-depressants, but I know its not going to happen. Just like LSD is unlikely to become a pain medication because of politics and the way pharma companies are run. Like I said before though, it would be intresting to see a study on this, but to date their isn't one. If some evidence does exist saying that LSD might have potential pain killing properties, than it still doesn't change the fact that its an educated guess, and nothing more. One problem about all the studies though is placebo, its so common that even sugar can help or make a problem worse. This is why many controls are needed, as any study, the less variables the better. Everyone has bias and an agenda, it is what makes us human.


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Offlinegururvishnu
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Re: as a painkiller [Re: twiggedoubt]
    #5776730 - 06/21/06 02:13 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Where are the claims that they cure cancer? I've never heard that. LSD/other drugs can help with terminally ill patients who have to deal with death, if that's what you mean. Seemed to help Aldous Huxley. Marijuana is in fact very useful in medication (used outside the US).


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OfflineIamthewalrus
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Re: as a painkiller [Re: gururvishnu]
    #5778378 - 06/21/06 10:09 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

terrence mckenna also died a very peaceful death from what I read(not sure where tho)


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OfflineIamthewalrus
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Re: as a painkiller [Re: gururvishnu]
    #5778419 - 06/21/06 10:20 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

should also mention that most patients with ms get NO relief from opiates...weed seems to be the only thing that really helps them(I know someone who has been through all the opiates and just has them sitting around cause they don't work) I get her weed when she needs it...she inquired about getting one of those cards here in ontario but she was told that all that really does is tell them your someone who smokes weed...u aren't gonna be supplied by us...so basically get it on your own


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Invisiblekaniz
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Re: as a painkiller [Re: Iamthewalrus]
    #5779655 - 06/22/06 06:04 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

link to an article on using LSD and Mush for treatment. Its just a brief over view, and mostly looks at using Mushrooms or LSD to help deal with Cluster Headaches.

LSD and Mushrooms for awhile did have legit scientific research going into it. Hell, with LSD - there was a big study done on using it to treat Alcoholism, I forget how many test subjects were used (was quite a few however), and they had a much higher success rate at helping patients recover than AA meetings did.

And, as mentioned - Eric Kast did research in the 60s when it was still legal and found it to be rather effective. I'm trying to find some of his actual research work, but its proving to be tricky at the moment - but I can only assume he did use a number of patients and controls/etc.

This isn't 'omg, lets make LSD legal and dose the world!$?$ omgwtfbbq! spread love and enlightenment', its seeing that these substances actually have legit therapeutic and medical value which I think deserve to be researched with more depth, and its a shame that they are illegal to even be used in a research setting.

Maybe if these substances were allowed to be research again, doctors can get a better idea of how they work, how they affect the human, and hell - maybe even come up with derivatives of them which can maintain the therapeutic/medical value but without the 'recreational/psychedelic use'.

Its not about trying to get these drugs legal to just lead to another boom in psychedelic culture and re-create the 60s or alternative motives, its about looking at the legit uses of these substances and seeing if something can be learned from them to better help people.

Who knows, maybe if a real amount of research could be done with LSD or Mushrooms to see what role they play in being able to abort the cluster headache cycle, it could eventually lead to a pill that had 'no recreational value' but still carry many of the same benifits.

Quote:


If some evidence does exist saying that LSD might have potential pain killing properties, than it still doesn't change the fact that its an educated guess, and nothing more.





No, there has been research on it -- I'm going to try and find some more details than just the breif overview that Wikipedia gives, but its mroe than just an 'educated guess'.

There was loads of legitimate research going into LSD before it was made illegal.


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Invisiblekaniz
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Re: as a painkiller [Re: kaniz]
    #5779661 - 06/22/06 06:07 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

link to a paper by Eric Kast called - Attenuation of Anticipation: A therapeutic use of Lysrgic acid diethylamide.

On my way to work so dont have a chance to read it myself, but will be giving it a read after work today.


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Invisiblebadchad
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Re: as a painkiller [Re: kaniz]
    #5780020 - 06/22/06 10:14 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

There is actually quite a bit of hallucinogen research going on. It's just not the traditional "Shulgin like" human type studies most people think of.

There is a major psilocybin study that will be published in the next few months. It has truly amazing findings. Perhaps it will be the catalyst for a new era of research (although this is wishful thinking)


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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Re: as a painkiller [Re: badchad]
    #5780054 - 06/22/06 10:30 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

The cure of cancer is pretty far fetched for Psych's. Most of the gugu's have died from a form of cancer.

On the thought of lsd as a painkiller.. i don't find that too far fetched. In fact, correct me if i'm wrong but, wasn't Hoffman doing research on headaches and looking for a migraine cure when he discoverd lsd?


--------------------
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OfflineIamthewalrus
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Re: as a painkiller [Re: kaniz]
    #5780833 - 06/22/06 03:22 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

thx for those links kaniz! :smile:


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OfflineIamthewalrus
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Re: as a painkiller [Re: kaniz]
    #5780942 - 06/22/06 04:04 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

also I'm pretty sure I read that they are testing psilocybin(and possibly lsd) for migraines/cluster heachaches right now in the us


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OfflineIamthewalrus
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Re: as a painkiller [Re: Iamthewalrus]
    #5781135 - 06/22/06 05:16 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I love how it was actually USED for schizophrenia treatment with success since most consider lsd to be a trigger(and I"m not saying its not but still)


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Re: as a painkiller [Re: kaniz]
    #5781144 - 06/22/06 05:18 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

that is a great overview man thx a bunch(haven't looked at the kast study in detail yet)


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Re: as a painkiller [Re: twiggedoubt]
    #5781260 - 06/22/06 05:59 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

honestly man...and I'm really not saying this to be a prick or anything...I think your defending your own opiate addiction...which is understandable...I've been there myself...any excuse sounds good if it means u get to keep using(your body now thinks it needs it afterall)

but I do know ppl who can use opiates in moderation so maybe this dosen't apply to u...but most cannot...thats just the way it is


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Re: as a painkiller [Re: Iamthewalrus]
    #5782251 - 06/22/06 10:36 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

This doesn't really have to do with my opiate addiction, I don't have a problem with that I don't need to justify my addiction it is something from which I only have one regret, and that is the pain it brings to my parents, anything else about it I could care less about. Telling your friends your a heroin addict and having them look at you different the rest of your life would effect some people, it didn't effect me. True friends don't judge you for what you are. Actually it really helped me pick out who was my friend and who wasn't. This has to do with people promoting their agenda cause they would like to see a certain drug legitamised. Just look at all the shit you read about Ibogaine being a cure all for opiates (It isn't) yet I have heard nothing but bad things about it from first hand reports. Why the hell are so many people promoting this, many of these people have no idea about the mechanics of addiction, many of them read that a certain chemical has potential. All over the million marijuana march people were talking about legalising it, yet they had no clue how much of a failure it is. It is illegal though in most places, and even were it is legal it doesn't work very often getting a legit # on it is about as hard as getting legit #s on AA. Bad statistics mean bad business. Reading first hand reports about it leads me to believe that it is just like rapid detox, anything that seems too good to be true usually is. I really shouldn't even comment on either side on whether LSD can or can't be used as a pain medication cause the #'s don't exist, and even if they do they are incomplete. I said I would like to see studies, but I think that the fact that the information was released prematurely is some indication that someone had an agenda. Positive PR for any drug often time has some type of motive, especially in early stages. The thing about LSD being used for pain though, even if you take a large dose, it does degrade in your body, and you do end up with a very low dose in your body, and I think that if LSD had any type of potential, I think people would have some idea from first hand experience. I am sure some people might find LSD positive for pain, but then again so does sugar. That is the biggest obsticle though, proving that LSD is more effective for pain than a placebo. Placebo is one of the biggest obsticles in any controlled study, and if it doesn't even take that in to account then it isn't worth the paper its typed out on. Just the fact about people with mental illness and the chance of even sub-psychedelic doses triggering underlying psychological problems is another reason this might not happen. LSD first has to be fully studied, and every aspect has to be considered. I think it would be intresting to see it, but as I said before its wishful thinking, it won't happen until the drug war is abolished, if that will even happen in our lifetime. The reason I would be intrested has less to do with the fact that its LSD, but more with the fact that I am really curious about neuroscience, and anything that helps us better understand the brain, or makes us ask even more questions is good. My bias on opiates is more because I think it has potential, and I don't agree with any restrictions on any drug use, except proper labeling and the control of false advertising and false aqusations. In that respect I think people should be able to get LSD if they want to if they think it helps their pain, just like they should be able to get it if they want to get fucked up. The drug war is more than some laws that make drugs illegal, its something else that restricts our freedoms, is unconsitutional, is our government sticking their nose in our lives, and it is an excuse to lock people up that some people find "unexceptiable", and though its not really about this point, but it somewhat relates, if I had the choice between freedom to own arms or the legalization of drugs, I would pick the arms, the same with free speech vs drug legalization. People that want to legalise "soft" drugs arean't about the freedom issue, they are more about the "well alcohol is worse" which really makes their arguement look weak. It reminds me of two kids arguing over who got a bigger piece of cake. No drug is "safe", and all drugs can be abused, but bashing one drug doesn't help marijuana look any better. I want whats best for our freedoms vs whats best for safety, and thats what it all comes down to. What is more important, your childrens freedom or your childrens safety. Neither side is wrong, but one side seems to be viewed as extremists, why because people are more likely to believe a big lie than a small one. "Illict drugs are bad, all illegal drugs." It would really be funny if so many people weren't in prison for some stupid ass drug laws, and this comes back to the discussion again, as the way LSD is viewed cause of information control, and propaganda. People have had this information pounded into their heads since day one, and even most of the legalization advocates still believe some of it. I believe a lot of the same BS in different fields, but even in this one its a matter of freedom, and drugs arean't even the issue, choices are. I hope it goes towards the way of the libertarion party, but I really don't have very much faith in a country full of people that believe the world is 6000 years old and we came from Adam and Eve. Thats why I am going to vote with my feet. I kind of went off topic, but it is somewhat relevant.


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Re: as a painkiller [Re: twiggedoubt]
    #5782390 - 06/22/06 11:17 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

break up your posts man


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Re: as a painkiller [Re: Iamthewalrus]
    #5783628 - 06/23/06 12:08 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Increase your text size, or copy and post it to notepad and break it up yourself. If it isn't that important to you, than don't read it. I type fast, and cause of playing MMPORPGs I type as certain way. I have posted at a buncha msg boards, and noone ever said anything to me in the 6 years I've been using them, until now. I already have a short attention span, I really don't feel like going back and forth fixing my posts cause they don't have breaks.


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Re: as a painkiller [Re: twiggedoubt]
    #5783639 - 06/23/06 12:12 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

its just hard on the eyes man


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Re: as a painkiller [Re: twiggedoubt]
    #5783652 - 06/23/06 12:16 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

responding to topic

I myself find that LSD and shrooms work well as an atypical painkiller... what I'd normally consider painful is more of just another feeling on acid. you feel it but it doesnt bother you as it normally would, it almost feels disconnected from your actual body.


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Re: as a painkiller [Re: twiggedoubt]
    #5783688 - 06/23/06 12:35 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

and just so u know I have no agenda...if u mean my bias against opiates well wtf do u expect I just went through the worst shit of my life with them and saw many others going through the SAME shit...if u don't learn from your mistakes your doomed to repeat them

I just happen to be very interested in lsd and was reading wikipedia and came across some REAL evidence of it being tested as a pain killer and I thought most here would appreciate that

my agenda is to try and help other ppl avoid the pain I have gone through...if that makes me seem like some sort of hippy advocate then so be it cause I'm all about facts and thats what your gonna get from me


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Re: as a painkiller [Re: Iamthewalrus]
    #5786289 - 06/24/06 11:01 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

You have an agenda, everyone has an agenda. I could care less about your agenda againest opiates, I really don't expect anyone to have anything positive to say about opiates, and I understand why. Your agenda is, like most people here some drug or another that you find intresting. LSD is part of my agenda, but I just don't like incomplete information, as I already said I would really like to see a study on this. If I saw something saying that said LSD can be used to help people with PTSS I wouldn't of posted anything because their is substantial evidence to support that claim. Their isn't any substantial evidence to support this claim, and the reason why it was posted was because it was about LSD, nothing less, nothing more. People cherrypick information, for example their was a study about LSD damaging DNA, yet for some reason we all know about that. This is the same thing, your agenda is that you like LSD whether it fascinates you, or you think its an important chemical, the reason doesn't matter. The point is your agenda is promoting LSD information. The fact that your posting on a drug forum is proof of this. As I said, I also have an agenda, and it probally isn't that much different than yours. I do have another agenda that you might not have, I really dislike incomplete information because it proves nothing, and as I said is just a scientific guess. Maybe you posted this because you think it was intresting, maybe you posted it because you saw some potential, maybe you posted it because you believe it to be true. The reason once again doesn't matter, but it does have to do with your agenda. Whether it was planned out subcontiously or not, everyone is promoting something. Back to the point though, I have not seen any posts by you about other non-opioid type pain medications that are undergoing testing. I haven't seen any posts by you about any non-illict drug related information. Your agenda, in my opinion is #1 promoting information that you find intresting, and from the last sentence I think that your promoting yourself as someone that cares about people, which may or may not be true, but this post is about something you find intresting, I don't know you enough to be able to tell anything more, but I don't believe for a second that the aspect of pain treatment was the main reason you posted this. The fact that it had to do with LSD and the fact that you have no other threads about other pain medications in progress is what makes me believe this. You might be intrested in the pain aspect of it, but I believe your more intrested in promoting LSD than promoting pain medication. Whether the pain aspect of it is secondary isn't the point.

The last sentence is bullshit, your not all about the facts, noone is only about the facts. You also give out opinions, this post isn't even about facts its about a pre-phase 1 study, not even a phase 1 study. Your a human, not a computer. I never tried to label you, people constantly change, so you really can't label people, but its really hard for someone to see their own flaws. You either can see them, and don't want to believe them, or you manipulate the world to fit the way you want to see it. Personally, I am arogant (probally the reason I can see some of my flaws) I am a narcissist, I am selfish, I am unrealistic, and I treat the ones I care most about like shit. Of course I have more flaws, but these are the only ones I either choose to admit, or the only flaws I belive are flaws. Its really hard to admit it, but I am arrogant to the point that people's opinions usually don't matter to me. The point is that you might not want to admit your faults, but we all have them, some of them we can see, most of them we don't. There is nothing wrong with promoting what is important to you, but even if people are important to you, its still being selfish, in that by pleasing others you are pleasing yourself. It is almost impossible to go against human nature and human nurture, at least thats what I think.


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Re: as a painkiller [Re: twiggedoubt]
    #5786754 - 06/24/06 02:35 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

there IS substantial evidence....if u take the time to read what kaniz has been posting u would see that...it may not be end PROOF but its a great fuckin start(better then ur gonna see with anything else for the same problems)...and to not test something with THAT much potential is crazy imo


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Re: as a painkiller [Re: Iamthewalrus]
    #5786770 - 06/24/06 02:41 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

and I understand why they did it...lsd scared the fuck outta the us...they viewed it as a possible for social colaspe and it very well might have been...but if u read kaniz's links u would see that some experts believe that our society has evolved enough that we are capable of handling such a powerful drug being integrated into our society

and it only makes sense...the internet has changed us...we now have sooo much info right at our fingertips at basically anytime of the day if your willing to put in the effort...ppl are becoming more educated in general imo(tho I know for a fact that most of the high up dealers spend zero time on pc's) at least around here...so bogus info on lsd and other drugs will continue to spread I'm sure


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Re: as a painkiller [Re: twiggedoubt]
    #5787187 - 06/24/06 06:22 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

twiggedoubt said:
You have an agenda, everyone has an agenda. I could care less about your agenda againest opiates, I really don't expect anyone to have anything positive to say about opiates, and I understand why. Your agenda is, like most people here some drug or another that you find intresting. LSD is part of my agenda, but I just don't like incomplete information, as I already said I would really like to see a study on this. If I saw something saying that said LSD can be used to help people with PTSS I wouldn't of posted anything because their is substantial evidence to support that claim. Their isn't any substantial evidence to support this claim, and the reason why it was posted was because it was about LSD, nothing less, nothing more. People cherrypick information, for example their was a study about LSD damaging DNA, yet for some reason we all know about that. This is the same thing, your agenda is that you like LSD whether it fascinates you, or you think its an important chemical, the reason doesn't matter. The point is your agenda is promoting LSD information. The fact that your posting on a drug forum is proof of this. As I said, I also have an agenda, and it probally isn't that much different than yours. I do have another agenda that you might not have, I really dislike incomplete information because it proves nothing, and as I said is just a scientific guess. Maybe you posted this because you think it was intresting, maybe you posted it because you saw some potential, maybe you posted it because you believe it to be true. The reason once again doesn't matter, but it does have to do with your agenda. Whether it was planned out subcontiously or not, everyone is promoting something. Back to the point though, I have not seen any posts by you about other non-opioid type pain medications that are undergoing testing. I haven't seen any posts by you about any non-illict drug related information. Your agenda, in my opinion is #1 promoting information that you find intresting, and from the last sentence I think that your promoting yourself as someone that cares about people, which may or may not be true, but this post is about something you find intresting, I don't know you enough to be able to tell anything more, but I don't believe for a second that the aspect of pain treatment was the main reason you posted this. The fact that it had to do with LSD and the fact that you have no other threads about other pain medications in progress is what makes me believe this. You might be intrested in the pain aspect of it, but I believe your more intrested in promoting LSD than promoting pain medication. Whether the pain aspect of it is secondary isn't the point.

The last sentence is bullshit, your not all about the facts, noone is only about the facts. You also give out opinions, this post isn't even about facts its about a pre-phase 1 study, not even a phase 1 study. Your a human, not a computer. I never tried to label you, people constantly change, so you really can't label people, but its really hard for someone to see their own flaws. You either can see them, and don't want to believe them, or you manipulate the world to fit the way you want to see it. Personally, I am arogant (probally the reason I can see some of my flaws) I am a narcissist, I am selfish, I am unrealistic, and I treat the ones I care most about like shit. Of course I have more flaws, but these are the only ones I either choose to admit, or the only flaws I belive are flaws. Its really hard to admit it, but I am arrogant to the point that people's opinions usually don't matter to me. The point is that you might not want to admit your faults, but we all have them, some of them we can see, most of them we don't. There is nothing wrong with promoting what is important to you, but even if people are important to you, its still being selfish, in that by pleasing others you are pleasing yourself. It is almost impossible to go against human nature and human nurture, at least thats what I think.




of course I'm flawed...where did I suggest that I wasn't? but I AM all about facts and would rather be corrected then put out misinformation...but the fact of the matter is well some of your points may be valid u are ignoring facts right in front of your face because u chose to ignore them


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Re: as a painkiller [Re: Iamthewalrus]
    #5788752 - 06/25/06 07:11 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Show me the facts. I am simply saying their isn't enough information to conclude anything. If you showed me a study that would suggest a certain reason the molecule would work well for pain, for whatever reason it would be different. As far as I know, they did a 1 pilot study, that might suggest LSD has potential as a pain medication. I am saying that proving this to be true still needs a lot of work. It doesn't matter that its LSD, even if it was anydrug, you need to do extensive testing. Post a link to the study if you find it, I will read it, but I doubt it is going to change my opinion, unless the %s are abnormally high, than I might be more inclinded to agree that it has potential, but I still would say more research is needed. I don't think I ever said it didn't have potential, I just said more testing is needed. I might have talked from my experience, but experience is worth nothing if your part of the 1% that don't benefit from a drug. As for the talk about agenda's and what not, its my opinion I don't expect you to agree, especially cause I might seem to be talking down to you, which isn't on purpose. I would as I said like to see more studies, probally for different reasons then most people.


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Re: as a painkiller [Re: twiggedoubt]
    #5789382 - 06/25/06 01:07 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

kaniz posted the link to the study already


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Re: as a painkiller [Re: Iamthewalrus]
    #5789468 - 06/25/06 01:59 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Unfortunately, the info presented in the first link on cluster headaches is very weak scientifically.

The authors presented a survey-based approach on the use of hallucinogens in treating cluster headaches. There was no direct comparison in a clinical study (as far as I can tell) to any other treatment modality. Whats needed is a double blind study directly comparing the different therapies. I would imagine it will be difficult for them even to get their results published.

I didn't get into the longer review. Any specific mention of pain? As twigged said one report does not constitute "overwhelming" or "substantial" scientific evidence.

EDIT: there is mention of a study in the references, wish I could take a look at it. Again, the structure and design of the study would be important. After searching for said reference I found an author's review on Kast's study in which he summarized Kasts work saying: "LSD was abotu as effective in treating pain as opioids, except longer lasting". Again, I can't get the papers so I can't personally comment


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


Edited by badchad (06/25/06 02:05 PM)


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Re: as a painkiller [Re: badchad]
    #5789993 - 06/25/06 05:31 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)



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Re: as a painkiller [Re: Iamthewalrus]
    #5790635 - 06/25/06 09:27 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

#1 it is only 128 people and #2 they gave them 100 micrograms. It wasn't double blind and their wasn't very many controls. Nothing can be concluded from this study, from a scientific point of few, it is lacking in all areas. I think it was a study to see LSD had any potential to be tested more extensively as a pain medication. This study isn't only about pain #1 its about a range of different issues, and #2 its a dose higher than originally posted. This study makes some sense, but even still with a 30% dropout rate and for such a high rate of other undesirable effects, it would probably be a better starting place than anything. As I said, I would like to see more studies, but you can't conclude anything from this other than LSD might have potential as an aid for terminally ill people.


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Re: as a painkiller [Re: twiggedoubt]
    #5790654 - 06/25/06 09:34 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

For me, the major problem was the lack of statistics, and that reported levels of pain were measured as a conglomerate.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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Re: as a painkiller [Re: badchad]
    #5790684 - 06/25/06 09:47 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

well with all the testing going on right now hopefully we will get the more concrete statistics...but I already know from my own experience that it does indeed work for pain


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