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OfflineIamthewalrus
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Re: as a painkiller [Re: twiggedoubt]
    #5783688 - 06/23/06 12:35 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

and just so u know I have no agenda...if u mean my bias against opiates well wtf do u expect I just went through the worst shit of my life with them and saw many others going through the SAME shit...if u don't learn from your mistakes your doomed to repeat them

I just happen to be very interested in lsd and was reading wikipedia and came across some REAL evidence of it being tested as a pain killer and I thought most here would appreciate that

my agenda is to try and help other ppl avoid the pain I have gone through...if that makes me seem like some sort of hippy advocate then so be it cause I'm all about facts and thats what your gonna get from me


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Offlinetwiggedoubt
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Re: as a painkiller [Re: Iamthewalrus]
    #5786289 - 06/24/06 11:01 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

You have an agenda, everyone has an agenda. I could care less about your agenda againest opiates, I really don't expect anyone to have anything positive to say about opiates, and I understand why. Your agenda is, like most people here some drug or another that you find intresting. LSD is part of my agenda, but I just don't like incomplete information, as I already said I would really like to see a study on this. If I saw something saying that said LSD can be used to help people with PTSS I wouldn't of posted anything because their is substantial evidence to support that claim. Their isn't any substantial evidence to support this claim, and the reason why it was posted was because it was about LSD, nothing less, nothing more. People cherrypick information, for example their was a study about LSD damaging DNA, yet for some reason we all know about that. This is the same thing, your agenda is that you like LSD whether it fascinates you, or you think its an important chemical, the reason doesn't matter. The point is your agenda is promoting LSD information. The fact that your posting on a drug forum is proof of this. As I said, I also have an agenda, and it probally isn't that much different than yours. I do have another agenda that you might not have, I really dislike incomplete information because it proves nothing, and as I said is just a scientific guess. Maybe you posted this because you think it was intresting, maybe you posted it because you saw some potential, maybe you posted it because you believe it to be true. The reason once again doesn't matter, but it does have to do with your agenda. Whether it was planned out subcontiously or not, everyone is promoting something. Back to the point though, I have not seen any posts by you about other non-opioid type pain medications that are undergoing testing. I haven't seen any posts by you about any non-illict drug related information. Your agenda, in my opinion is #1 promoting information that you find intresting, and from the last sentence I think that your promoting yourself as someone that cares about people, which may or may not be true, but this post is about something you find intresting, I don't know you enough to be able to tell anything more, but I don't believe for a second that the aspect of pain treatment was the main reason you posted this. The fact that it had to do with LSD and the fact that you have no other threads about other pain medications in progress is what makes me believe this. You might be intrested in the pain aspect of it, but I believe your more intrested in promoting LSD than promoting pain medication. Whether the pain aspect of it is secondary isn't the point.

The last sentence is bullshit, your not all about the facts, noone is only about the facts. You also give out opinions, this post isn't even about facts its about a pre-phase 1 study, not even a phase 1 study. Your a human, not a computer. I never tried to label you, people constantly change, so you really can't label people, but its really hard for someone to see their own flaws. You either can see them, and don't want to believe them, or you manipulate the world to fit the way you want to see it. Personally, I am arogant (probally the reason I can see some of my flaws) I am a narcissist, I am selfish, I am unrealistic, and I treat the ones I care most about like shit. Of course I have more flaws, but these are the only ones I either choose to admit, or the only flaws I belive are flaws. Its really hard to admit it, but I am arrogant to the point that people's opinions usually don't matter to me. The point is that you might not want to admit your faults, but we all have them, some of them we can see, most of them we don't. There is nothing wrong with promoting what is important to you, but even if people are important to you, its still being selfish, in that by pleasing others you are pleasing yourself. It is almost impossible to go against human nature and human nurture, at least thats what I think.


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OfflineIamthewalrus
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Re: as a painkiller [Re: twiggedoubt]
    #5786754 - 06/24/06 02:35 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

there IS substantial evidence....if u take the time to read what kaniz has been posting u would see that...it may not be end PROOF but its a great fuckin start(better then ur gonna see with anything else for the same problems)...and to not test something with THAT much potential is crazy imo


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OfflineIamthewalrus
every evening Idied and everynight I wasreborn
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Re: as a painkiller [Re: Iamthewalrus]
    #5786770 - 06/24/06 02:41 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

and I understand why they did it...lsd scared the fuck outta the us...they viewed it as a possible for social colaspe and it very well might have been...but if u read kaniz's links u would see that some experts believe that our society has evolved enough that we are capable of handling such a powerful drug being integrated into our society

and it only makes sense...the internet has changed us...we now have sooo much info right at our fingertips at basically anytime of the day if your willing to put in the effort...ppl are becoming more educated in general imo(tho I know for a fact that most of the high up dealers spend zero time on pc's) at least around here...so bogus info on lsd and other drugs will continue to spread I'm sure


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OfflineIamthewalrus
every evening Idied and everynight I wasreborn
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Registered: 03/24/04
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Re: as a painkiller [Re: twiggedoubt]
    #5787187 - 06/24/06 06:22 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

twiggedoubt said:
You have an agenda, everyone has an agenda. I could care less about your agenda againest opiates, I really don't expect anyone to have anything positive to say about opiates, and I understand why. Your agenda is, like most people here some drug or another that you find intresting. LSD is part of my agenda, but I just don't like incomplete information, as I already said I would really like to see a study on this. If I saw something saying that said LSD can be used to help people with PTSS I wouldn't of posted anything because their is substantial evidence to support that claim. Their isn't any substantial evidence to support this claim, and the reason why it was posted was because it was about LSD, nothing less, nothing more. People cherrypick information, for example their was a study about LSD damaging DNA, yet for some reason we all know about that. This is the same thing, your agenda is that you like LSD whether it fascinates you, or you think its an important chemical, the reason doesn't matter. The point is your agenda is promoting LSD information. The fact that your posting on a drug forum is proof of this. As I said, I also have an agenda, and it probally isn't that much different than yours. I do have another agenda that you might not have, I really dislike incomplete information because it proves nothing, and as I said is just a scientific guess. Maybe you posted this because you think it was intresting, maybe you posted it because you saw some potential, maybe you posted it because you believe it to be true. The reason once again doesn't matter, but it does have to do with your agenda. Whether it was planned out subcontiously or not, everyone is promoting something. Back to the point though, I have not seen any posts by you about other non-opioid type pain medications that are undergoing testing. I haven't seen any posts by you about any non-illict drug related information. Your agenda, in my opinion is #1 promoting information that you find intresting, and from the last sentence I think that your promoting yourself as someone that cares about people, which may or may not be true, but this post is about something you find intresting, I don't know you enough to be able to tell anything more, but I don't believe for a second that the aspect of pain treatment was the main reason you posted this. The fact that it had to do with LSD and the fact that you have no other threads about other pain medications in progress is what makes me believe this. You might be intrested in the pain aspect of it, but I believe your more intrested in promoting LSD than promoting pain medication. Whether the pain aspect of it is secondary isn't the point.

The last sentence is bullshit, your not all about the facts, noone is only about the facts. You also give out opinions, this post isn't even about facts its about a pre-phase 1 study, not even a phase 1 study. Your a human, not a computer. I never tried to label you, people constantly change, so you really can't label people, but its really hard for someone to see their own flaws. You either can see them, and don't want to believe them, or you manipulate the world to fit the way you want to see it. Personally, I am arogant (probally the reason I can see some of my flaws) I am a narcissist, I am selfish, I am unrealistic, and I treat the ones I care most about like shit. Of course I have more flaws, but these are the only ones I either choose to admit, or the only flaws I belive are flaws. Its really hard to admit it, but I am arrogant to the point that people's opinions usually don't matter to me. The point is that you might not want to admit your faults, but we all have them, some of them we can see, most of them we don't. There is nothing wrong with promoting what is important to you, but even if people are important to you, its still being selfish, in that by pleasing others you are pleasing yourself. It is almost impossible to go against human nature and human nurture, at least thats what I think.




of course I'm flawed...where did I suggest that I wasn't? but I AM all about facts and would rather be corrected then put out misinformation...but the fact of the matter is well some of your points may be valid u are ignoring facts right in front of your face because u chose to ignore them


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Offlinetwiggedoubt
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Re: as a painkiller [Re: Iamthewalrus]
    #5788752 - 06/25/06 07:11 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Show me the facts. I am simply saying their isn't enough information to conclude anything. If you showed me a study that would suggest a certain reason the molecule would work well for pain, for whatever reason it would be different. As far as I know, they did a 1 pilot study, that might suggest LSD has potential as a pain medication. I am saying that proving this to be true still needs a lot of work. It doesn't matter that its LSD, even if it was anydrug, you need to do extensive testing. Post a link to the study if you find it, I will read it, but I doubt it is going to change my opinion, unless the %s are abnormally high, than I might be more inclinded to agree that it has potential, but I still would say more research is needed. I don't think I ever said it didn't have potential, I just said more testing is needed. I might have talked from my experience, but experience is worth nothing if your part of the 1% that don't benefit from a drug. As for the talk about agenda's and what not, its my opinion I don't expect you to agree, especially cause I might seem to be talking down to you, which isn't on purpose. I would as I said like to see more studies, probally for different reasons then most people.


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OfflineIamthewalrus
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Re: as a painkiller [Re: twiggedoubt]
    #5789382 - 06/25/06 01:07 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

kaniz posted the link to the study already


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Invisiblebadchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,372
Re: as a painkiller [Re: Iamthewalrus]
    #5789468 - 06/25/06 01:59 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Unfortunately, the info presented in the first link on cluster headaches is very weak scientifically.

The authors presented a survey-based approach on the use of hallucinogens in treating cluster headaches. There was no direct comparison in a clinical study (as far as I can tell) to any other treatment modality. Whats needed is a double blind study directly comparing the different therapies. I would imagine it will be difficult for them even to get their results published.

I didn't get into the longer review. Any specific mention of pain? As twigged said one report does not constitute "overwhelming" or "substantial" scientific evidence.

EDIT: there is mention of a study in the references, wish I could take a look at it. Again, the structure and design of the study would be important. After searching for said reference I found an author's review on Kast's study in which he summarized Kasts work saying: "LSD was abotu as effective in treating pain as opioids, except longer lasting". Again, I can't get the papers so I can't personally comment


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


Edited by badchad (06/25/06 02:05 PM)


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OfflineIamthewalrus
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Re: as a painkiller [Re: badchad]
    #5789993 - 06/25/06 05:31 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)



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Offlinetwiggedoubt
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Re: as a painkiller [Re: Iamthewalrus]
    #5790635 - 06/25/06 09:27 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

#1 it is only 128 people and #2 they gave them 100 micrograms. It wasn't double blind and their wasn't very many controls. Nothing can be concluded from this study, from a scientific point of few, it is lacking in all areas. I think it was a study to see LSD had any potential to be tested more extensively as a pain medication. This study isn't only about pain #1 its about a range of different issues, and #2 its a dose higher than originally posted. This study makes some sense, but even still with a 30% dropout rate and for such a high rate of other undesirable effects, it would probably be a better starting place than anything. As I said, I would like to see more studies, but you can't conclude anything from this other than LSD might have potential as an aid for terminally ill people.


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Invisiblebadchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,372
Re: as a painkiller [Re: twiggedoubt]
    #5790654 - 06/25/06 09:34 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

For me, the major problem was the lack of statistics, and that reported levels of pain were measured as a conglomerate.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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OfflineIamthewalrus
every evening Idied and everynight I wasreborn
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Registered: 03/24/04
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Re: as a painkiller [Re: badchad]
    #5790684 - 06/25/06 09:47 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

well with all the testing going on right now hopefully we will get the more concrete statistics...but I already know from my own experience that it does indeed work for pain


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