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Invisiblekaniz
That one, overthere.
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Re: as a painkiller [Re: Iamthewalrus]
    #5775525 - 06/21/06 05:38 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

100ugs is a psychedelic dose - hell, its a common dose. 400ugs is getting into a fairly strong dose. A threshold dose is around 20ug, so a sub-psychedelic dose would probably be less than that.

I find it interstng how twigg is just so quick to write it off.

Yes, right *NOW* there is no chance it'll ever be used as a painkiller due to its illegal status. However the research that went into it is interesting. There are lots of medical and legit uses for LSD, even in non-recreational dosages, however sadly due to the stigma of the drug and its schedeuald status, they wont be able to be explored.

And, as the article said - Eric Kast /did/ do research on it and found it to be more effective than Opiates, this research was probably done while it was still legal.


Edited by kaniz (06/21/06 05:43 AM)


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OfflineIamthewalrus
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Re: as a painkiller [Re: kaniz]
    #5776555 - 06/21/06 01:29 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

yep it was! :smile:


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Offlinetwiggedoubt
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Re: as a painkiller [Re: Iamthewalrus]
    #5776669 - 06/21/06 01:57 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I really don't trust the motives of a lot of people that make claims about the wonders of certain psychedelics. Many times they really do it for their own motives, mainly legitamising psychedelics in the medical community. The same is true for marijuana, though I think it actually does have some uses that should be addressed, I really don't see how people are making claims about it helping cure cancer, or some of the other claims. Not saying it might not help, but to make these claims you really need extensive testing. Almost always, this is not the case. People report early findings that have anything to do with psychedelics or marijuana and people read into it like its the gospel. Unless you have a study with at the very least hundreds of people with controls, it is a theory, or at best an educated guess. I am not going to say LSD might not have potential, I can't make that claim, their is no raw data to look at for anyone to make a guess. As for me being in horrible pain, I had a staft infection on my neck that grew to the size of a baseball, it hurt like hell and I have had various other painful injuries. The most painful of all the problems I have had would have to be getting a root canal, the dentist fucking it up to the point that my gums got infected, and I ripped the filling out of my head with a pair of pliers because it hurt so much. I had no pain medication for that. As I said though, there is middle ground, something that tylenol won't help, but at the same time opiates are too dangerous. Of course I will admit, I do have an agenda, as I have a bias towards opiates, I think they work better than anything for pain. This isn't because of experience either, as I haven't tried every other drug out there. The fact that you even posted this here, and I haven't seen any other posts about potential medications leaves me to believe you too have a bias, as well as an agenda. I would love to see pain medication become anti-depressants, but I know its not going to happen. Just like LSD is unlikely to become a pain medication because of politics and the way pharma companies are run. Like I said before though, it would be intresting to see a study on this, but to date their isn't one. If some evidence does exist saying that LSD might have potential pain killing properties, than it still doesn't change the fact that its an educated guess, and nothing more. One problem about all the studies though is placebo, its so common that even sugar can help or make a problem worse. This is why many controls are needed, as any study, the less variables the better. Everyone has bias and an agenda, it is what makes us human.


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Offlinegururvishnu
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Re: as a painkiller [Re: twiggedoubt]
    #5776730 - 06/21/06 02:13 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Where are the claims that they cure cancer? I've never heard that. LSD/other drugs can help with terminally ill patients who have to deal with death, if that's what you mean. Seemed to help Aldous Huxley. Marijuana is in fact very useful in medication (used outside the US).


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OfflineIamthewalrus
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Re: as a painkiller [Re: gururvishnu]
    #5778378 - 06/21/06 10:09 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

terrence mckenna also died a very peaceful death from what I read(not sure where tho)


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OfflineIamthewalrus
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Re: as a painkiller [Re: gururvishnu]
    #5778419 - 06/21/06 10:20 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

should also mention that most patients with ms get NO relief from opiates...weed seems to be the only thing that really helps them(I know someone who has been through all the opiates and just has them sitting around cause they don't work) I get her weed when she needs it...she inquired about getting one of those cards here in ontario but she was told that all that really does is tell them your someone who smokes weed...u aren't gonna be supplied by us...so basically get it on your own


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Invisiblekaniz
That one, overthere.
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Re: as a painkiller [Re: Iamthewalrus]
    #5779655 - 06/22/06 06:04 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

link to an article on using LSD and Mush for treatment. Its just a brief over view, and mostly looks at using Mushrooms or LSD to help deal with Cluster Headaches.

LSD and Mushrooms for awhile did have legit scientific research going into it. Hell, with LSD - there was a big study done on using it to treat Alcoholism, I forget how many test subjects were used (was quite a few however), and they had a much higher success rate at helping patients recover than AA meetings did.

And, as mentioned - Eric Kast did research in the 60s when it was still legal and found it to be rather effective. I'm trying to find some of his actual research work, but its proving to be tricky at the moment - but I can only assume he did use a number of patients and controls/etc.

This isn't 'omg, lets make LSD legal and dose the world!$?$ omgwtfbbq! spread love and enlightenment', its seeing that these substances actually have legit therapeutic and medical value which I think deserve to be researched with more depth, and its a shame that they are illegal to even be used in a research setting.

Maybe if these substances were allowed to be research again, doctors can get a better idea of how they work, how they affect the human, and hell - maybe even come up with derivatives of them which can maintain the therapeutic/medical value but without the 'recreational/psychedelic use'.

Its not about trying to get these drugs legal to just lead to another boom in psychedelic culture and re-create the 60s or alternative motives, its about looking at the legit uses of these substances and seeing if something can be learned from them to better help people.

Who knows, maybe if a real amount of research could be done with LSD or Mushrooms to see what role they play in being able to abort the cluster headache cycle, it could eventually lead to a pill that had 'no recreational value' but still carry many of the same benifits.

Quote:


If some evidence does exist saying that LSD might have potential pain killing properties, than it still doesn't change the fact that its an educated guess, and nothing more.





No, there has been research on it -- I'm going to try and find some more details than just the breif overview that Wikipedia gives, but its mroe than just an 'educated guess'.

There was loads of legitimate research going into LSD before it was made illegal.


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Invisiblekaniz
That one, overthere.
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Re: as a painkiller [Re: kaniz]
    #5779661 - 06/22/06 06:07 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

link to a paper by Eric Kast called - Attenuation of Anticipation: A therapeutic use of Lysrgic acid diethylamide.

On my way to work so dont have a chance to read it myself, but will be giving it a read after work today.


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Invisiblebadchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,372
Re: as a painkiller [Re: kaniz]
    #5780020 - 06/22/06 10:14 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

There is actually quite a bit of hallucinogen research going on. It's just not the traditional "Shulgin like" human type studies most people think of.

There is a major psilocybin study that will be published in the next few months. It has truly amazing findings. Perhaps it will be the catalyst for a new era of research (although this is wishful thinking)


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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InvisibleTrippinTeddy
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Re: as a painkiller [Re: badchad]
    #5780054 - 06/22/06 10:30 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

The cure of cancer is pretty far fetched for Psych's. Most of the gugu's have died from a form of cancer.

On the thought of lsd as a painkiller.. i don't find that too far fetched. In fact, correct me if i'm wrong but, wasn't Hoffman doing research on headaches and looking for a migraine cure when he discoverd lsd?


--------------------
ToiletDuk said:
For the record, I would show you my butthole but you would fall down and worship it as a God and you would give up everything to roam the land converting the heathens by fire and sword. Millions would die. No, no the cost is too great. I cannot.



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OfflineIamthewalrus
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Re: as a painkiller [Re: kaniz]
    #5780833 - 06/22/06 03:22 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

thx for those links kaniz! :smile:


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OfflineIamthewalrus
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Re: as a painkiller [Re: kaniz]
    #5780942 - 06/22/06 04:04 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

also I'm pretty sure I read that they are testing psilocybin(and possibly lsd) for migraines/cluster heachaches right now in the us


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OfflineIamthewalrus
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Re: as a painkiller [Re: Iamthewalrus]
    #5781135 - 06/22/06 05:16 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I love how it was actually USED for schizophrenia treatment with success since most consider lsd to be a trigger(and I"m not saying its not but still)


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OfflineIamthewalrus
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Re: as a painkiller [Re: kaniz]
    #5781144 - 06/22/06 05:18 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

that is a great overview man thx a bunch(haven't looked at the kast study in detail yet)


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OfflineIamthewalrus
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Re: as a painkiller [Re: twiggedoubt]
    #5781260 - 06/22/06 05:59 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

honestly man...and I'm really not saying this to be a prick or anything...I think your defending your own opiate addiction...which is understandable...I've been there myself...any excuse sounds good if it means u get to keep using(your body now thinks it needs it afterall)

but I do know ppl who can use opiates in moderation so maybe this dosen't apply to u...but most cannot...thats just the way it is


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Offlinetwiggedoubt
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Re: as a painkiller [Re: Iamthewalrus]
    #5782251 - 06/22/06 10:36 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

This doesn't really have to do with my opiate addiction, I don't have a problem with that I don't need to justify my addiction it is something from which I only have one regret, and that is the pain it brings to my parents, anything else about it I could care less about. Telling your friends your a heroin addict and having them look at you different the rest of your life would effect some people, it didn't effect me. True friends don't judge you for what you are. Actually it really helped me pick out who was my friend and who wasn't. This has to do with people promoting their agenda cause they would like to see a certain drug legitamised. Just look at all the shit you read about Ibogaine being a cure all for opiates (It isn't) yet I have heard nothing but bad things about it from first hand reports. Why the hell are so many people promoting this, many of these people have no idea about the mechanics of addiction, many of them read that a certain chemical has potential. All over the million marijuana march people were talking about legalising it, yet they had no clue how much of a failure it is. It is illegal though in most places, and even were it is legal it doesn't work very often getting a legit # on it is about as hard as getting legit #s on AA. Bad statistics mean bad business. Reading first hand reports about it leads me to believe that it is just like rapid detox, anything that seems too good to be true usually is. I really shouldn't even comment on either side on whether LSD can or can't be used as a pain medication cause the #'s don't exist, and even if they do they are incomplete. I said I would like to see studies, but I think that the fact that the information was released prematurely is some indication that someone had an agenda. Positive PR for any drug often time has some type of motive, especially in early stages. The thing about LSD being used for pain though, even if you take a large dose, it does degrade in your body, and you do end up with a very low dose in your body, and I think that if LSD had any type of potential, I think people would have some idea from first hand experience. I am sure some people might find LSD positive for pain, but then again so does sugar. That is the biggest obsticle though, proving that LSD is more effective for pain than a placebo. Placebo is one of the biggest obsticles in any controlled study, and if it doesn't even take that in to account then it isn't worth the paper its typed out on. Just the fact about people with mental illness and the chance of even sub-psychedelic doses triggering underlying psychological problems is another reason this might not happen. LSD first has to be fully studied, and every aspect has to be considered. I think it would be intresting to see it, but as I said before its wishful thinking, it won't happen until the drug war is abolished, if that will even happen in our lifetime. The reason I would be intrested has less to do with the fact that its LSD, but more with the fact that I am really curious about neuroscience, and anything that helps us better understand the brain, or makes us ask even more questions is good. My bias on opiates is more because I think it has potential, and I don't agree with any restrictions on any drug use, except proper labeling and the control of false advertising and false aqusations. In that respect I think people should be able to get LSD if they want to if they think it helps their pain, just like they should be able to get it if they want to get fucked up. The drug war is more than some laws that make drugs illegal, its something else that restricts our freedoms, is unconsitutional, is our government sticking their nose in our lives, and it is an excuse to lock people up that some people find "unexceptiable", and though its not really about this point, but it somewhat relates, if I had the choice between freedom to own arms or the legalization of drugs, I would pick the arms, the same with free speech vs drug legalization. People that want to legalise "soft" drugs arean't about the freedom issue, they are more about the "well alcohol is worse" which really makes their arguement look weak. It reminds me of two kids arguing over who got a bigger piece of cake. No drug is "safe", and all drugs can be abused, but bashing one drug doesn't help marijuana look any better. I want whats best for our freedoms vs whats best for safety, and thats what it all comes down to. What is more important, your childrens freedom or your childrens safety. Neither side is wrong, but one side seems to be viewed as extremists, why because people are more likely to believe a big lie than a small one. "Illict drugs are bad, all illegal drugs." It would really be funny if so many people weren't in prison for some stupid ass drug laws, and this comes back to the discussion again, as the way LSD is viewed cause of information control, and propaganda. People have had this information pounded into their heads since day one, and even most of the legalization advocates still believe some of it. I believe a lot of the same BS in different fields, but even in this one its a matter of freedom, and drugs arean't even the issue, choices are. I hope it goes towards the way of the libertarion party, but I really don't have very much faith in a country full of people that believe the world is 6000 years old and we came from Adam and Eve. Thats why I am going to vote with my feet. I kind of went off topic, but it is somewhat relevant.


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OfflineIamthewalrus
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Re: as a painkiller [Re: twiggedoubt]
    #5782390 - 06/22/06 11:17 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

break up your posts man


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Offlinetwiggedoubt
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Re: as a painkiller [Re: Iamthewalrus]
    #5783628 - 06/23/06 12:08 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Increase your text size, or copy and post it to notepad and break it up yourself. If it isn't that important to you, than don't read it. I type fast, and cause of playing MMPORPGs I type as certain way. I have posted at a buncha msg boards, and noone ever said anything to me in the 6 years I've been using them, until now. I already have a short attention span, I really don't feel like going back and forth fixing my posts cause they don't have breaks.


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OfflineIamthewalrus
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Re: as a painkiller [Re: twiggedoubt]
    #5783639 - 06/23/06 12:12 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

its just hard on the eyes man


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OfflineCrowsnose
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Re: as a painkiller [Re: twiggedoubt]
    #5783652 - 06/23/06 12:16 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

responding to topic

I myself find that LSD and shrooms work well as an atypical painkiller... what I'd normally consider painful is more of just another feeling on acid. you feel it but it doesnt bother you as it normally would, it almost feels disconnected from your actual body.


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