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Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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OfflineLearyfanS
It's the psychedelic movement!
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Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 34,146
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Last seen: 55 minutes, 38 seconds
Re: Occam's Razor [Re: Swami]
    #576943 - 03/12/02 01:48 PM (21 years, 11 months ago)

Do you have scientific proof that that was a pointless statement?



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Mp3 of the month:  Sons Of Adam - Feathered Fish


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Occam's Razor [Re: alphatrion]
    #576945 - 03/12/02 01:50 PM (21 years, 11 months ago)

So what if my collegue is convinced that he is talking to aliens... i will confront him with my questions of course.. but if he isn't doing anyone harm what is the problem with it?
Please refresh your memory on the Son of Sam if you believe there is no harm to a "voice in the head".


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Offlinekyuss
newbie
Registered: 03/08/02
Posts: 42
Last seen: 21 years, 11 months
Re: Occam's Razor [Re: Learyfan]
    #576971 - 03/12/02 02:08 PM (21 years, 11 months ago)

just to save you the bandwidth:

-do you have scientific proof that its not a pointless statement.
-do you have scientific proof that scientific proof itself is not a pointless statement?
-do you have scientific proof that scientific proof itself is a pointless statement?
-do you have scientific proof that the scientific proof of scientific proof itself is not a pointless statement?
-do you have scientific proof that the scientific proof of scientific proof itself is a pointless statement?


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Anonymous

Re: Occam's Razor [Re: Swami]
    #576980 - 03/12/02 02:15 PM (21 years, 11 months ago)

My point was to illustrate that religious explanations are usually quite a bit more simplistic
than those that require discovering the underlying complexities of nature. To base the
validity of a theory or explanation upon it's simplicity in relation to other theories/explanations
is merely using probablities (assuming that most valid explanations are more simple).
But these probabilities (if true) concerning the simplicity of other explanations have no
logical bearing on the validity of unrelated explanations.

Your missing car example does not really give an example of the simplest explanation.
What it does illustrate is an explanation can be based on prior experiences of others or
yourself (statistical probability) or as you termed it, it is "the most likely explanation."
This is not the same as the "simpler" explanation.

If all things are equal between two competing explanations with the exception of their
complexity, there is no logical reason to prefer one over the other. Both explanations
should be given equal weight pending the discovery of more facts or the accumulation of
data which shows an increased probability of one explanation being more valid than
the other. However, if the only difference is probability, until the facts are determined,
the mind should remain open to the possible even though it's sensible to give weight
to the probable.

Edited by evolving (03/12/02 02:18 PM)

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Offlinekyuss
newbie
Registered: 03/08/02
Posts: 42
Last seen: 21 years, 11 months
Re: Occam's Razor [Re: ]
    #576997 - 03/12/02 02:36 PM (21 years, 11 months ago)

ermmmmmmmmm [stroking beard],good point - however our logic to which we deal with life is based on our prior experiences. I believe that is the connectionist model of the human mind - where we have several different outcomes planned in our mind (neural pathways) and several factors effect the outcome of a descion. past experience strengthens these pathways making our minds expect an outcome that is more 'grounded' in reality. If someone had their car stolen by an alien spaceship (hypothetically) then the next time there car is stolen the application of experinece would lead to the conclusion that his car had been abducted by little grey men.

Reality/Our perceptions of reality are based on probabilities which are weighted by our knowledge, our experiences and our enviroment.

So i see what you mean by keeping an open mind to all the possibilities, but we are but simple creatures in a bloody complex world so sometimes we have to use tools like occam's razor to narrow things down otherwise we would never get anywhere.

And if i was wrong about my car been beemed to alpha centauri, and it wasn't really those little bastards down the road, i would still blame the little bastards down the road - just because i am an englishman.

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Offlinealphatrion
journeyman
Registered: 08/01/01
Posts: 64
Last seen: 19 years, 6 months
Re: Occam's Razor [Re: Swami]
    #577011 - 03/12/02 02:53 PM (21 years, 11 months ago)

Please refresh your memory on the Son of Sam if you believe there is no harm to a "voice in the head".

So how do you propose to deal with people who hear voices? Let my collegue have his voices if he doesn't suffer from it! A pre-emptive strike with unvoluntary anti-psychotics treatment would be against his free will. I think we don't know enough of the human mind to justify such an automatic reaction based on fear of irrationality and unpredictability. If it becomes evident that the person is not happy because of these voices and he can't cope with daily social demands because of them i would agree with you.

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Anonymous

Re: Occam's Razor [Re: kyuss]
    #577015 - 03/12/02 02:58 PM (21 years, 11 months ago)

I in no way meant to imply that aliens (of the extraterrestrial sort) are in any way
responsible for any missing automobiles. I would say that probability of that is
extraordinarily low. However I have read that when American Indians first encountered
Europeans they could not 'see' the Europeans ships out on the ocean horizon.
There minds had never encountered or entertained the possiblity. Likewise it is
said that they thought the first Europeans that they encountered on horseback were not
human but some sort of odd creature (a simple explanation). They quickly learned that
their model of the universe was incomplete.

It is my opinion that it is important to remember that all of us maintain an incomplete
model of the universe within our psyches. If we are not prepared to accomodate new
information, history shows that this could be to our own detriment or in the least, we
will not be prepared to embrace new opportunites.

Edited by evolving (03/12/02 09:50 PM)

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Occam's Razor [Re: alphatrion]
    #577033 - 03/12/02 03:15 PM (21 years, 11 months ago)

So how do you propose to deal with people who hear voices? Let my collegue have his voices if he doesn't suffer from it! A pre-emptive strike with unvoluntary anti-psychotics treatment would be against his free will.
Alpha I usually respect your replies as well-thought, but you stated that here was NO HARM in hearing voices. I pointed out otherwise. Now you are resorting to tactics I only expect from lesser-thinking individuals. I suggested or proposed nothing. Don't make up statements for me.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Occam's Razor [Re: ]
    #577035 - 03/12/02 03:19 PM (21 years, 11 months ago)

Good points! My examples were not very precise.


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Offlinekyuss
newbie
Registered: 03/08/02
Posts: 42
Last seen: 21 years, 11 months
Re: Occam's Razor [Re: ]
    #577059 - 03/12/02 03:40 PM (21 years, 11 months ago)

cool so we agree at lasdt (i think), keep an open mind - but use your powers of reasoning to incorporate new wierdness into your model. Don't except things in blind faith just because there might be odd creatures around its probably europeans on horseback. I suppose that the new phenomenon has to be encorporated into your mind somehow and strange creatures are more entertaining than europeans on horseback. After that though you must attempt to discover its true nature to be free from the illusion of mystical thinking.

But in my mundane extra-terrestrial free reality i use logical tools to traverse my thought patterns. When et's are fully incorporated into my logical thinking, i suppose we could use occams razor to work out weather et had nicked my car or it was those little bastards down the road.

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Offlinealphatrion
journeyman
Registered: 08/01/01
Posts: 64
Last seen: 19 years, 6 months
Re: Occam's Razor [Re: Swami]
    #577077 - 03/12/02 04:04 PM (21 years, 11 months ago)

Swami, I'm sorry that i misunderstood you. I am not aware that i am resorting to certain tactics... but if did i offer my apologies. But you have to understand that:
a) i was led to believe that somehow you mistrust people who talk to aliens (see your first post in the thread).
b) In response to your suggestion that people who believe in aliens are mentaly imbalanced I stated for me someone is healthy if she/he is happy and can meet the daily demands of life and a healthy society even if he/she is talking to aliens.
c) you made a statement of a serial-killer that hears voices to somehow backup your idea that hearing voices is can be very dangerous. I responded to this in the fashion i did. But thank you for making this little nuance by refering to the son of sam. I will never look at my collegue in the same way.
Yes, you have to be very conscious of the negative aspects of ir/transrationality... but i prefer to look at the positive sides of those things. I guess that's what prompted my misrepresentation of your statement. I am sorry... maybe i was shocked by you using this son of sam guy.

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Occam's Razor [Re: alphatrion]
    #577162 - 03/12/02 05:22 PM (21 years, 11 months ago)

Yes, I used an extreme example. Hearing voices does not necessarily make one dangerous or violent, but instability can be manifested in many ways.


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