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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Hypocrisy
#5764128 - 06/18/06 11:54 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
a feigning to be what one is not or to believe what one does not; especially : the false assumption of an appearance of virtue or religion
Upon consideration, I have realized that it is not, in fact, religion to which I object. If all those who claim to practice Christ-worship emulated their Savior, this would be an amazing world to live in, whether you were a Christian or not. What I object to is hypocrisy, which seems to be SOP for the majority of those who proclaim their piety.
The only practicing Christians I have met were those who never announced it. They were loving and honest and happy, and, when asked about their beliefs, claimed no ultimate validity of their particular set, merely that it made them happy.
I must agree with Gandhi on this one: "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."
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Icelander
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Re: Hypocrisy [Re: Veritas]
#5764208 - 06/18/06 12:33 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Who would bother to object to any religion if the practitioners did not attempt to dictate behaviors for others; either by force or condemnation?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Silversoul
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I also find hypocrisy in those who claim to believe in "tough love," when they are really just angry and vindictive.
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Icelander
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Please be more specific.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Silversoul
Rhizome


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Quote:
Icelander said: Please be more specific.
No need. I've made my point already.
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
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If he doesn't know, you're not going to tell him?
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


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Re: Hypocrisy [Re: Veritas]
#5764425 - 06/18/06 01:57 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said: If he doesn't know, you're not going to tell him?
Isn't that hypocriticial for someone who believes that they should serve others and not oneself? 
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Silversoul
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I don't see how much more specific I could be without pointing fingers, which would corrupt my original intention.
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Icelander
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I'm not looking for names, just a concrete somewhat unbiased example.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Silversoul
Rhizome


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Ok. Say someone says this:
Quote:
The idea if tough love has some merit. I get down on the words of some folk here but that doesn't mean I hate them. Often I feel the most support I can give them is to confront them with my honest opinions. I always remember that I may be wrong. To me it is not compassionate to support someone who is dysfunctional without confronting the dysfunction directly. And that might even be by ignoring them when they are seeking unhealthy attention.
And then goes on to poke fun at another person, rather than simply ignoring them or trying to help them. I think that's hypocrisy.
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fireworks_god
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Quote:
Silversoul said: I don't see how much more specific I could be without pointing fingers, which would corrupt my original intention.
The original intention of subtly pointing fingers? 
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Silversoul
Rhizome


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Quote:
fireworks_god said:
Quote:
Silversoul said: I don't see how much more specific I could be without pointing fingers, which would corrupt my original intention.
The original intention of subtly pointing fingers? 
My intention was to teach, rather than make a public spectacle of someone.
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fireworks_god
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I'm in no position to question or make assumptions as to your intentions. I was simply having some fun, mocking the manners of others that do engage in that sort of behavior. 
We all still have our manners of indirectly addressing others personally, our ways of posturing to convey a certain image or identity.... These things are expressed from time to time...
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Silversoul
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I'd like to add that I think anyone who's honest with themselves will catch themselves being a hypocrite every now and then. I don't want to say it's unavoidable, but almost everyone is a hypocrite at some point. The best you can do is catch yourself doing it and try to avoid it in the future.
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fireworks_god
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Quote:
Silversoul said: The best you can do is catch yourself doing it and try to avoid it in the future.
One should carefully observe one's behavior, and then dedicate oneself to actively transforming their mind to prevent the behavior from reoccuring. One doesn't "try to avoid", one engages in responding to that which will prevent it from occuring again.
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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So you were confronting Icelander with your honest opinion of his actions, but not willing to do so directly?
How do you dintinguish between confronting someone's dysfunction and "poking fun" at them? Are you poking fun at Icelander by indirectly calling him angry, vindictive and hypocritical? Is this action in alignment with your professed beliefs?
Quote:
Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measurement ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
And why beholdest thou the mote (speck) that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and them shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye. Matthew 7:1-5
What teaching are you hoping to offer through this method? How do you know for certain that Icelander is angry and vindictive, as opposed to more directly confrontational in his teaching methods? Can you read his mind and discern that his intentions are materially different from yours?
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Silversoul
Rhizome


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Re: Hypocrisy [Re: Veritas]
#5764560 - 06/18/06 02:26 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I was hoping to subtly remind him to let go of anger, and not be so quick to judge others. Nothing more.
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
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And you were exemplifying this lesson by judging him and his intentions?
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Silversoul
Rhizome


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Re: Hypocrisy [Re: Veritas]
#5764581 - 06/18/06 02:30 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I was exemplifying it by trying to help him understand what he was doing.
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger

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Re: Hypocrisy [Re: Veritas]
#5764586 - 06/18/06 02:31 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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If all those who claim to practice Christ-worship emulated their Savior, this would be an amazing world to live in, whether you were a Christian or not.
"The last true Christian was nailed to the cross."
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
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And you are the ultimate authority on what lies in the hearts of others? You can accurately discern their intentions, emotions, beliefs, motivations & character? You have removed the "beam from thine eye" and can spy the splinter in Icelander's eye?
This is an excellent example of Christianity.
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Silversoul
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Re: Hypocrisy [Re: Veritas]
#5764600 - 06/18/06 02:34 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I'm sorry you feel that way. I wish I could help you understand.
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger

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Grouphug?
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Silversoul
Rhizome


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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


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I took plenty of time to "judge" DJ. I spoke to him many times in PM and on the boards. I tried differing tactics and found that nothing seemed to dent his position. So... because he does not on a regular basis follow the fair play rules of this forum, my intent is to help him go away. Either by confronting him directly on each of his flames etc. or by ignoring him completely. I'm willing to engage in whichever one of these will get the job done. My personal feeling is that he should not be posting here. Some or many may not agree but that's how I feel about the matter. If you want to ignore the forum rules on a continual basis then you don't belong here. That in no way means I hate the guy. I do dislike most of his posts.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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fireworks_god
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Quote:
fireworks_god said: The original intention of subtly pointing fingers? 
Quote:
Silversoul said: I was hoping to subtly remind him to let go of anger, and not be so quick to judge others. Nothing more.
So I did win a lot of money. 
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Silversoul
Rhizome


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That's not the impression I got from the PM's you sent me.
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Veritas

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I believe that I have accurately grasped the situation.
Your post was made from the POV that you understand what is going on within someone else's character and heart, and that you are in a position to preach at him about it. This is what has alienated me from religious fellowship--there is no fellowship, only one-ups-manship and judgmental condescension. Dana Carvey as the "Church Lady" on SNL comes to mind.
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Silversoul
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Re: Hypocrisy [Re: Veritas]
#5764626 - 06/18/06 02:39 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said: I believe that I have accurately grasped the situation.
You have not.
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MushmanTheManic
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fireworks_god
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I have just completed what remained of my sacrament. Time to partake in popcorn. 
I'm reminded of Bill Hick's opinion that marijuana shouldn't just be legal, that it should also be mandatory. "Here, you need to toke this!" "Oh, sorry, I guess I was taking life seriously for a moment." 
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Silversoul
Rhizome


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You're right. This is getting tiring. Obviously, my attempt to teach is being taken the wrong way. On the other hand, I'd rather the anger be directed at me than someone else.
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
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Quote:
they are really just angry and vindictive.
So this is not a claim to a deep and full understanding of his nature and emotional state?
If I say "you are really just judgmental, preachy and sanctimonious," do I have more or less authority than you to claim that this is an accurate description of reality?
If I claim to be using this statement to teach you about your failings, does this mean that I am not unfairly judging you?
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MushmanTheManic
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I'm leaving to goto my brother-in-laws house, and when I come back tonight, I expect everyone to be sitting around a campfire singing songs and passing around hugs!
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Silversoul
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Re: Hypocrisy [Re: Veritas]
#5764656 - 06/18/06 02:48 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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If I was being judgemental, preachy, and sanctimonious, then that would indeed be a valid and constructive criticism. That's different than calling people names and asking for them to be banned. I agree with Icelander about "tough love." I just felt that his actions did not match his words. It's actually based on his PM's, which I am not allowed to post, that I felt he was truly being vindictive.
But enough of this. My original point has been lost on everyone already, and has turned into a drama-fest, and for that I am indeed a hypocrite. Let's just end this now.
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Edited by Silversoul (06/18/06 02:55 PM)
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Icelander
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I stated my position very clearly to you and told you basically what I have said here. I have encouraged others to confront him directly or ignore him. I fully admit that and have given my reasons. Some here seem to take him very seriously and ignore his unprovoked attacks on others. I have even told him that I felt some of his posts were spot on. Then I told him exactly what I objected to and encouraged him to drop the shit and be a contributing member of this forum. His response was not encouraging.
If you feel that his posts are beneficial for the most part and he does not make a habit of flaming (he is currently banned from the PUB for flaming)those he cannot functionally debate with, not to mention condemning his enemies to hell and proclaiming himself God Almighty, then you and I are not likely to agree on this one.
Weren't you one of the ones who wanted Swami banned for being negative and mocking people and disrupting the forums, or do I have you mixed up with someone else?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Silversoul
Rhizome


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Quote:
Icelander said: Weren't you one of the ones who wanted Swami banned for being negative and mocking people and disrupting the forums, or do I have you mixed up with someone else?
You definitely have me mixed up. I was personally banned for defending Swami. I cannot recall ever calling for a member of this forum to be banned. I prefer to let people share their point of view, regardless of whether or not I agree.
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Veritas

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And regardless of whether they follow the only rule of this forum?
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs



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Re: Hypocrisy [Re: Veritas]
#5764771 - 06/18/06 03:34 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Not calling you a whore?
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
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Re: Hypocrisy [Re: Redstorm]
#5764775 - 06/18/06 03:35 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Yes, damnit! 
Everybody knows I don't charge for it.
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Triplexiosis
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Isn't noticing other's "flaws" just a reflection of self, and what bothers one about himself (at least from my poor knowledge of analytical psychology). I used to dislike liars, later I figured out it was because I lied all the time. So spoting a "splinter" in another and avoiding the one in your eyes would be... hypocrisy?
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"If there were no desire to heal, the damaged and broken met along this tedious path I've choosen here, I certainly would have walked away by now" Tool - Patient "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye." Antoine de Saint-Exupery
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Redstorm
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I don't lie very often, but I still don't like liars. They have caused me emotional pain and suffering, and that is enough for me.
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capliberty
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Re: Hypocrisy [Re: Redstorm]
#5764884 - 06/18/06 04:10 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Whats hypocritical is developing a self righteous attitude in which one has proclaimed an authoritative view in doing the will of god.
Prime example is my man G dub, and biggest blunder campaign of modern presidency of America, creating a big mess on behave of freedom and the explosion of evil. I guess I see his point, the ones getting blown to oblivion are free now,
well anyways, you could go on on about it, I guess the ends justify the means, so far my ends isn't being justified by these means.
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Icelander
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Re: Hypocrisy [Re: Veritas]
#5764960 - 06/18/06 04:36 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said: Yes, damnit! 
Everybody knows I don't charge for it.
I can vouch for that.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
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My PM to you was basically what I have posted here. I pointed out that debate with him is fruitless and encourages him. I also pointed out that I felt he was mentally unstable and so unfit to post in our forum. I didn't ask you to personally do anything and thats where you might have gotten the feeling I was spouting off on the guy. I usually just state my case and let you make up your mind. You told me exactly how you felt about my opinion and I replied "fair enough" sent you one of those little hearts and said I'll see you out in the fray. If I had been invested in beating this guy up I would have told you off because you didn't agree with me. I have been encouraging folks to actively ignore this user. If lots of people did that it would work. If folk here didn't care for that I might go back to confrontation. It worked on Fivepointer IMO and I haven't seen him post here in quite some time. Now I am basically open minded but when people threaten others with their religion I have a soft spot in my heart for disputing that aggressively as I know the damage it can do to peoples sense of self worth.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Silversoul
Rhizome


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I admit that you've been dealing with him better lately than you have in the past, and your recent PM to me was not as nasty and bitter as your past PMs. Maybe that's a sign of growth, except that you don't seem to acknowledge your past behavior. But that's for you to work out, not me. I wish you well, and will continue to try and promote compassion and understanding in this forum and elsewhere.
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fireworks_god
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Quote:
Icelander said: If folk here didn't care for that I might go back to confrontation. It worked on Fivepointer IMO and I haven't seen him post here in quite some time.
Now you're full of shit. 
Fivepointer returns from the mountain when the time is appropriate. Your actions have no bearing on this. Fivepointer has no regard for you and your confrontation. He is receiving the message, and he will return when necessary to proclaim it as he sees fit. 
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Icelander
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As I said I don't hate the guy. It's easy to see he's in lots of pain. My attempts to relate to him on a compassionate level in PM and otherwise have not met with success. My very intense pushing back at him was always an attempt to help him leave this forum and not hatred of him personally. His personal and unprovoked attacks do not enhance the quality of this forum. He seems to have created the same problems in other forums and I have been told that he used death threats in the PUB. Not a great way to debate.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
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I often feel that if we had moderators who were involved with this forum I wouldn't feel compelled to police it myself.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Silversoul
Rhizome


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I think he has trouble trying to express himself, and his ego gets in the way a lot, but there's some get stuff in his posts if you can sort through the bullshit. In any case, I think we've spent enough time beating this dead horse.
/me lights a joint and passes it to Icelander. 
No hard feelings, buddy
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs



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Yeah, I was just about to say that this discussion is inappropriate in this thread, and is disrespectful to the original thread-maker.
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Icelander
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Re: Hypocrisy [Re: Redstorm]
#5765290 - 06/18/06 06:25 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Veritas is used to me being inappropriate. Sorry sweetness.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs



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No hard feelings. I love both you and Silversoul regardless of your respective bantering.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


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Re: Hypocrisy [Re: Redstorm]
#5766807 - 06/19/06 04:47 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Redstorm said: Yeah, I was just about to say that this discussion is inappropriate in this thread, and is disrespectful to the original thread-maker.
Sounds about normal.
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


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Quote:
fireworks_god said: Now you're full of shit. 
Fivepointer returns from the mountain when the time is appropriate. Your actions have no bearing on this. Fivepointer has no regard for you and your confrontation. He is receiving the message, and he will return when necessary to proclaim it as he sees fit. 
 Peace.
Speak of the devil! 
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


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Re: Hypocrisy [Re: Veritas]
#5766935 - 06/19/06 05:54 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said:
Quote:
a feigning to be what one is not or to believe what one does not; especially : the false assumption of an appearance of virtue or religion
Upon consideration, I have realized that it is not, in fact, religion to which I object. If all those who claim to practice Christ-worship emulated their Savior, this would be an amazing world to live in, whether you were a Christian or not. What I object to is hypocrisy, which seems to be SOP for the majority of those who proclaim their piety.
The only practicing Christians I have met were those who never announced it. They were loving and honest and happy, and, when asked about their beliefs, claimed no ultimate validity of their particular set, merely that it made them happy.
I must agree with Gandhi on this one: "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."
I have a natural distrust of salesmen.
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_ 🧠_
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