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OfflineLegalizeTodd
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Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 28
Last seen: 17 years, 3 months
WBS + 8 days -> no growth
    #5749512 - 06/14/06 12:24 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

So here's the deal. My best friend's sister's dog's bitch innoc'ed 15 quarts of substrate 8 days ago: 10 WBS (+Quinoa) quart jars and 2 half gallon + 1 quart jars of popcorn. Jars were innoc'ed with B+ spore solution (from vendor), approx 2ml per quart. Jars were then incubated at 86-87 degrees for a week - this was a mistake, temp was lowered to 80-81 yesterday.

After 5 days, growth was visible in all popcorn jars, but nothing/nada/zip so far in any WBS jars. There is nothing indicating any fungicide on the WBS bag.

So what the hell is the problem?

Thoughts:
1) could the high incubation temp of the jars have killed the spores or stopped them from germinating? True, the popcorn jars were at the same temp, but maybe the WBS got hotter because it's a denser substrate (is that even possible).
2) WBS got overcooked? All jars were sterilized with 90-100 minutes at 15psi. It has become apparent that this was too much, so maybe the PC fucked up the seeds or moisture content (But not even enough H2O to germinate?) in a way that didn't hurt the popcorn. Maybe injections of sterile water are in order...

Someone, HELP?

(Shroomery love :heart:)


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"Everything comes apart if you know where the screws are"

Edited by LegalizeTodd (06/14/06 12:26 PM)

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Offlinesporey
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Registered: 05/09/06
Posts: 11
Last seen: 17 years, 9 months
Re: WBS + 8 days -> no growth [Re: LegalizeTodd]
    #5750089 - 06/14/06 03:46 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I believe you have to hit over 100 degrees F to kill spores, doesn't sound like your case.

Sounds most likely like a contam, take a wiff of your WBS jars and if you smell anything funky thats definitely it. If you have no smell then it's probably just water content problem.

I have had mucho mildew problems with WBS, and when that happens I get no growth whatsoever.

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OfflineLegalizeTodd
Revolutionary

Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 28
Last seen: 17 years, 3 months
Re: WBS + 8 days -> no growth [Re: sporey]
    #5752638 - 06/15/06 07:48 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I've had problems with WBS too, but I thought everything was looking good on this run until no growth. Nothing to indicate contams so far as I can tell, and all procedure was super-sterile.

I can understand stalled growth from lack of moisture, but do you really think enough H2O could have been lost in the PC to keep the spores from even germinating?


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"Everything comes apart if you know where the screws are"

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InvisibleMasFina
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Re: WBS + 8 days -> no growth [Re: LegalizeTodd]
    #5752653 - 06/15/06 07:53 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

maybe too long PCing dried them out. Do they look dry?


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InvisibleFooMan
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Re: WBS + 8 days -> no growth [Re: LegalizeTodd]
    #5752865 - 06/15/06 09:19 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

It's probably a moisture content problem. I doubt your PC times had anything to do with it. You can PC WBS for 3+ hours without problems.

Possibilities IMO:
- moisture content-didn't soak long enough or simmer
- didn't rinse seeds well after soak/simmer
- no gas exchange
- too much moisture
- pulled weight off of PC while there was still pressure- this will cause moisture loss


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Quick WBS Prep

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OfflineLegalizeTodd
Revolutionary

Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 28
Last seen: 17 years, 3 months
Re: WBS + 8 days -> no growth [Re: FooMan]
    #5755889 - 06/16/06 12:31 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

- pulled weight off of PC while there was still pressure- this will cause moisture loss




The weight was pulled off at full pressure in order to bring it down immediately. I've never heard this before: taking the weight off leading to moisture loss. Why would this happen?  :confused:

The grains were soaked for approx 24 hours then rinsed with hot water. Simmering was then attempted with about 1/3 of the seeds, but a large number bursted within 5 minutes. This third was mixed with the rest of the batch (to dilute the # bursted per jar), all seeds were rinsed thoroughly with hot and then cold water, then allowed to drain for a while, then loaded into jars with a bit of gypsum.

If indeed the moisture content got fucked up, and this seems the most likely explanation right now, how many CCs of water should I inject into each jar to try and get them going? Or should I experiment with different amounts in a few jars (3/5/10ml)to see what happens? Would it be beneficial to inject karo solution instead of straight water?

On behalf of all the cool people whose minds are gonna get blown as a result of my work, thank you. :grin:


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"Everything comes apart if you know where the screws are"

Edited by LegalizeTodd (06/17/06 05:54 PM)

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Invisibledog
straw dog

Registered: 06/20/02
Posts: 2,790
Loc: Route 66
Re: WBS + 8 days -> no growth [Re: LegalizeTodd]
    #5756193 - 06/16/06 02:54 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

The weight was pulled off at full pressure in order to bring it down immediately. I've never heard this before: taking the weight off leading to moisture loss. Why would this happen?




The contents of the PC are at pressure, including the substrate jars. When the weight is removed the pressure drops and the water that is in the substrate jars begins to boil very rapidly in the lower pressure. It does not take very long to boil a substrate jar completely dry in this manner.

To avoid this situation, exercise a little patience and wait for the PC to cool and the pressure to return to normal before venting/opening.


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Fascism (fash'izem) n. A governmental system marked by a centralized dictatorship, stringent socioeconomic controls, and often belligerent nationalism. see also: the Bush Administration.

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InvisibleFooMan
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Re: WBS + 8 days -> no growth [Re: dog]
    #5760590 - 06/17/06 01:09 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

To follow up on what Dog said, the best way I've heard it explained was by RogerRabbit. He stated that water cannot exist in a liquid state at temperatures above 212F. By pulling the weight off of the PC while pressurized, it forces all of the steam out of the PC and also the moisture in your jars, which are also at a temperature above 212F.

Not sure if that made sense or if I stated that correctly. Regardless, DON'T DO THAT AGAIN! :grin:


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Quick WBS Prep

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OfflineLegalizeTodd
Revolutionary

Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 28
Last seen: 17 years, 3 months
Re: WBS + 8 days -> no growth [Re: FooMan]
    #5761280 - 06/17/06 05:36 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Thank you, awesome people, for the PC advice. With SO much time spent on these boards, I can't believe I'd never read this before. It should be included in every grain-prep tek. Can't imagine why it's not.

Here's what's been done about this problem so far: A few 1/2 pint jars of 3% karo solution were sterilized along with a batch of LC baby bottles (agar and his teks rock my world). 5-6ccs of solution was injected into each of 5 no-grow WBS jars and 1 popcorn jar that's been colonizing slowly. Jars were shaken until no liquid could be seen pooling, then placed back to incubate at 83-84 degrees.

:::crosses fingers:::


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"Everything comes apart if you know where the screws are"

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Offlineccdove
2 card monte.
Registered: 04/05/06
Posts: 68
Loc: Third stone from the sun....
Last seen: 16 years, 9 months
Re: WBS + 8 days -> no growth [Re: LegalizeTodd]
    #5763233 - 06/18/06 04:01 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Pulling the p.c. weight off while its hot as hell can also crack the bottoms off your mason jars..ccdove

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OfflineXanthas
Blaspheme,blaspheyou, Blaspheverybody

Registered: 11/19/05
Posts: 267
Last seen: 16 years, 10 months
Re: WBS + 8 days -> no growth [Re: ccdove]
    #5763346 - 06/18/06 05:44 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I believe the technical aspect of it is this: The temperature at which water exists as a solid, liquid, or gas is determined by the pressure at which the water is at. At lower pressures, water vaporizes at lower temperatures. At higher pressure, it requires a higher temperature.

At 15 psi, water exists as a liquid up to 250F. When you release the pressure at 250F, the pressure quickly lowers, and along with it, the boiling point of the water. Thus you have very quickly evaporating water.


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If you don't ask the question, you always get it wrong.

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