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InvisibleSilversoul
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Casting the first stone
    #5762646 - 06/18/06 12:17 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

One of the most self-destructive sins, but also one of the hardest to resist, is that of putting yourself above others. Now, I don't mean simply watching out for yourself. What I mean is the tendency to look down on others, and dismiss them as unworthy of our compassion. But, as Jesus teaches us, "Let the one among you who is without sin cast the first stone." How quick we are to judge others, and pretend that we are free of sin! Shame on us for reserving our compassion for those we agree with! Forgiveness is not simply that which we owe to others. It is necessary for our own well-being. When we refuse to forgive others, we destroy ourselves in the process. Not only should we love our enemies, as Jesus teaches us to do, but we should thank them for the lessons they have taught us. I swear to you, however hard it may be to love and forgive those you dislike, finding that love will make you stronger.


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Invisiblespud
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Re: Casting the first stone [Re: Silversoul]
    #5762736 - 06/18/06 12:38 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Do you speak of Original sin?


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Casting the first stone [Re: spud]
    #5762747 - 06/18/06 12:41 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Not in the orthodox understanding of the term, no.


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: Casting the first stone [Re: Silversoul]
    #5763189 - 06/18/06 03:36 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

:thumbup:


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Casting the first stone [Re: Silversoul]
    #5763303 - 06/18/06 04:56 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

It is necessary for our own well-being

Grudges are heavy things to carry around on your back all the time. Better to dump them and not look back.  :thumbup:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Casting the first stone [Re: spud]
    #5763310 - 06/18/06 05:04 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

spud said:
Do you speak of Original sin?




Isn't the original sin, temptation?


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future


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OfflineYthanA
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Re: Casting the first stone [Re: Silversoul]
    #5763320 - 06/18/06 05:24 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I don't love my enemy and I do judge people based on their actions. People can prove themselves unworthy of compassion or understanding. I do not thank them for the lessons they taught me when I didn't want or ask for these lessons. I posit that by forgiving and loving someone who has done you a great wrong, you inherently endorse their behavior and devalue yourself. Better to put them out of your mind until you encounter them in a dark alley.


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Invisiblegoobler
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Re: Casting the first stone [Re: Ythan]
    #5763367 - 06/18/06 05:54 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

then you can cast a REALLY big stone


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Casting the first stone [Re: goobler]
    #5763422 - 06/18/06 06:27 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

goobler said:
then you can cast a REALLY big stone




Or a really, very small one......  traveling at a high velocity.....

:smirk:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Casting the first stone [Re: Ythan]
    #5763441 - 06/18/06 06:41 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Ythan said:
I don't love my enemy and I do judge people based on their actions. People can prove themselves unworthy of compassion or understanding.




Do you mean to state that they are unworthy of your understanding their nature? Personally, I think that one would actively seek out understanding, anywhere it can spring forth from. The more we understand other individuals, the more perspective we have which will benefit our understanding of ourself, and also our understanding of how to most effectively interact with others. You can relate to others more effectively when you understand more of who they are. :wink:

As far as compassion goes, I don't see anyone unworthy of compassion either, even those who work agansit myself and my goals. If one understands them, and why they engage in the behavior that they do, one will have compassion for their suffering, because, in a sense, you will be experiencing it for yourself, and you will transcend it. You will realize where they are at, and that they are working some oppurtunities out in order to develop further, to transcend their suffering just as you had by relating to it from a higher perspective.

That said, compassion and understanding does not mean that we have to embrace these individuals or even concern ourselves with them, nor encourage their behavior further. Honestly, if one wishes to encourage someone else's behavior, then interact with them from a perspective of not understanding them. If you don't understand them, then you don't realize what effects your actions will have on them, and one, quite possibly, might just be antagonizing their wounds that cause them to cry out in their negative behavior.

I navigate to not purposefully bring such individuals into my life, but I realize that if I understand them and feel compassionate for them all the same, then that will naturally change my own behaviors in my interactions with other human beings, and that understanding will change others that I interact with. Existing as being compassionate and understanding will naturally work to heal others who are suffering, even if you do not involve yourself with them, as that would not be preferential, considering their negative behaviors. :grin:

Its a form of predictive management, as opposed to reactive management. Adopt an outlook and a perspective (which I guess could be considered to be an outlook infused with understanding :mushroom2:) that understands how problems that will need to be addressed begin to develop, the behaviors that will naturally lead to the problems, and influence the manner in which such is unfolding in order to prevent the problems themselves from arising.

:stoned:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineYthanA
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Re: Casting the first stone [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5763476 - 06/18/06 07:15 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I guess I do think some people are unworthy of understanding their nature. If someone is a sociopath (and I've known a few), it really doesn't interest me how they got that way. Why should it? I have enough of my own problems and they certainly don't care about mine. I don't need to relate to them, I need to stop them or avoid them as the case may be. Similarly, if suffering leads someone to act in an immoral manner, it simply demonstrates their weakness in the face of adversity. Generally they are not "working some oppurtunities out in order to develop further", they are taking the path of least resistance. I don't feel any love, respect or compassion for someone who would seek to improve their own lot at the expense of others. Life is hard and they are weak. I do understand your point about predictive vs. reactive management, but rather than psychoanalyzing the antisocial behavior of others and attemting to rationalize or prevent it, I simply prefer to excise them from my life as quickly and efficienty as possible. I feel more self-respect from ending the abuse than from trying to convince myself their actions are justifiable.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Casting the first stone [Re: Ythan]
    #5763548 - 06/18/06 07:57 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

It does not pertain to whether or not their actions are justifiable, or analyzation of all aspects of another's behavior in order to build understanding. It simply means to realize that everyone is a human being and we are all likely experiencing some form of suffering that we are inflicting upon ourselves, and that we are all on different levels of awareness, and to simply acknowledge and be aware of that.

One doesn't have to associate with other individuals if one does not wish, and one does not have to build an in-depth understanding as to the nature of their specific problems in their situation. If one simply does not obstruct one's own understanding by divisive classifications and distinctions in one's thoughts, if we do not outright label them, then potenial for growth remains. :shrug:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Casting the first stone [Re: Silversoul]
    #5763622 - 06/18/06 08:34 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Basically I agree with your premise.

Also

I have found that sometimes what people mean by compassion is "I won't call you on your shit and you don't call me on mine".

The idea if tough love has some merit. I get down on the words of some folk here but that doesn't mean I hate them. Often I feel the most support I can give them is to confront them with my honest opinions. I always remember that I may be wrong. To me it is not compassionate to support someone who is dysfunctional without confronting the dysfunction directly. And that might even be by ignoring them when they are seeking unhealthy attention.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Casting the first stone [Re: Silversoul]
    #5763866 - 06/18/06 10:16 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I think the most relevant question we can ask ourselves is: given the same circumstances and capabilities, would I be different from the human being whom I am judging?

The answer is always no.

We are different from them because we have been composed and shaped that way. Perhaps we have developed our willpower, or optimism, or emotional resilience, to a level which they have not. Perhaps we were gifted with greater intelligence, dexterity, strength, symmetry. Perhaps we were born into a loving, stable family, while they were literally or figuratively abandoned.

I know that my judgment of others, and my tendency to place myself above them, reflects my lack of development. It is very different to think "I prefer not to be in this person's company, as they seem very negative and destructive" vs. "what an asshole, I hate that kind of person, I would NEVER do anything like that."


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OfflineYthanA
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Re: Casting the first stone [Re: Veritas]
    #5764332 - 06/18/06 01:27 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

So you believe in predestination?


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Casting the first stone [Re: Ythan]
    #5764346 - 06/18/06 01:31 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Do you believe that we are a system that has a sensitive dependance on the initial starting conditions of the system?

I personally think that we are such a system, and I think that cause and effect clearly demonstrates this.

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Casting the first stone [Re: Ythan]
    #5764348 - 06/18/06 01:33 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

No, I believe that all humans are shaped by their personal limitations and their reactions to their experiences. If I was born an identical twin to Hitler, and had the same life experiences, then I would have killed millions of Jews, too.


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OfflineYthanA
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Re: Casting the first stone [Re: Veritas]
    #5764697 - 06/18/06 03:04 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

How is that different from predestination? If simply being born Hitler's twin is enough to turn you into a genocidal maniac then shit, I'm off to rob a bank, I can't help it it's because of my life experiences!

This is the typical liberal standpoint and it's one I disagree with wholeheartedly. I do believe we are system sensitive to the initial starting condition, but we have the ability to rise above adversity. Wallowing in self pity or acting immorally because of some perceived injustice is always a choice. To say otherwise is to deny the existence of the very free will which characterizes all of humanity.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Casting the first stone [Re: Ythan]
    #5764729 - 06/18/06 03:16 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Our life experiences consist of events AND our reactions to those events. If I were Hitler's identical twin, being brought up the same way, I would probably have the same reactions to my life experiences.

This is not a denial of free will, but a statement of probability. Certainly, Hitler could have made radically different choices--but he did not, and it is not probable that his twin would have, either.

Where does the ability to overcome adversity come from? What is that X factor which sets apart Viktor Frankl and Adolf Hitler? Lee Harvey Oswald and Gandhi? Ted Bundy and Oprah Winfrey?

What essential ingredients or abilities are required in the complex composition of a compassionate, benevolent human?

We always have the choice in our actions, but do we always know we have the choice? Why do we choose what we choose? These factors affect the practice of free will, they do not contradict it.


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OfflineTriplexiosis
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Re: Casting the first stone [Re: Ythan]
    #5764755 - 06/18/06 03:26 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

How is that different from predestination?



How is it predestination if Veritas stated
Quote:

...and had the same life experiences.




Life is hard yes, and "they" are weak. From my perspective lack of compassion for "bad people" is a weakness... underdevelopment. Weaknesses are not to be judged however, and by no means are they meant to be intergrated into your own life. That is not compassion, it's foolishness.
Tough love is a great tool, but without "soft" love it's incomplete.


--------------------


"If there were no desire to heal, the damaged and broken met along this tedious path I've choosen here, I certainly would have walked away by now" Tool - Patient

"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye." Antoine de Saint-Exupery


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OfflineYthanA
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Re: Casting the first stone [Re: Triplexiosis]
    #5764805 - 06/18/06 03:46 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Predestination is the notion that a human's path is determined for them at birth. It doesn't matter if it's caused by God, the quantum state of the universe when they're conceived, or the society they're born into. Basically you are saying that Hitler's action are, if not excusable, at least understandable because of the circumstances he faced. I disagree, there are an infinite number ways to interpret and react to external stimuli, and these choices are what define your very character! It is never easy to rise above your surroundings but it can be done. And I will continue to look down on people who use the "poor me" excuse to justify all means of immoral behavior.


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OfflineTriplexiosis
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Re: Casting the first stone [Re: Ythan]
    #5764845 - 06/18/06 03:59 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Tnx for clarifying predestination. However what I'm saying is that IMO Hitler choose not to forgive for what has been done to him (be it molestation, brainwashing, whatever). In no way excusable, but by all means understandable. There is no excuse for immoral behavior, but I'm not and never will be in a position to pass judgment (even if I do it, it's meaningless and subjective).
Sure you can rise abouve your surroundings, but it requiers at least some desire to do so, anger blinds this desire, and often people are missing these infinite opportunities for change. Mostly for they do not recognize them as opportunities, rather flaws in the old thought process.


--------------------


"If there were no desire to heal, the damaged and broken met along this tedious path I've choosen here, I certainly would have walked away by now" Tool - Patient

"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye." Antoine de Saint-Exupery


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Casting the first stone [Re: Ythan]
    #5764848 - 06/18/06 03:59 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I don't believe anyone is attempting to justify behavior here. I see promotion of understanding, which will benefit one in their ability to navigate their life.

There is only one manner in which reality unfolds. One can point at another and proclaim that they have no excuse for not acting a certain way, but their action is the natural result of the culmination of all their experience. Our choices result from our perspective on life.

Promotion of this understanding is for the purpose of changing the way oneself acts. If one realizes the potential that another individual has, while realizing exactly where they are right now, then one can act in a manner that will most effectively influence them to "rise above one's surroundings", as you have put it.

There may be an infinite amount of potential ways to interact with one's environment in any given second, but it remains obvious that the previous moment plays an integral part in what occurs in the present moment. Cause and effect, and I have never seen someone succesfully deny the notion of cause and effect. Someone who does not know how to speak Finnish is not going to be held accountable for being able to do so, and someone who has not realized the most beneficial way to conduct one's life cannot be held as someone who has realized it.

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Casting the first stone [Re: Ythan]
    #5764851 - 06/18/06 04:00 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Yes, character! What creates our character? Why does your character take the shape which rejects self-pity and blaming circumstances for the choices you make? Why does someone else's character take the opposite shape?

I never said that it was a matter of birth + circumstances, I said that our life experiences (which are interactive) + our inborn capabilities = who we become.

This is not predestination at all, as we can clearly see the difference character (interaction with our life experiences) creates in the outcome of a life. If we looked at birth + circumstances, we would predict that Oprah Winfrey would be a single mother on welfare living in the slums somewhere. She was financially and socially disadvantaged, abused, and seemingly "destined" for more of the same.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Casting the first stone [Re: Veritas]
    #5764855 - 06/18/06 04:04 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Exactly, and this is why we seek to understand reality so that we can interact with other's experience of reality in a manner that will bring them to understand more aspects of reality as well, thus being the change that is necessary.

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineYthanA
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Re: Casting the first stone [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5764863 - 06/18/06 04:07 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Thanks guys I dunno that I'll be changing my opinion but I must say you've given me a much better understanding of the opposing view and some of it even makes sense. :wink:


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Casting the first stone [Re: Veritas]
    #5765140 - 06/18/06 05:35 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

What is that X factor which sets apart... Ted Bundy and Oprah Winfrey?

About 100 pounds? :smirk:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Casting the first stone [Re: Icelander]
    #5765154 - 06/18/06 05:39 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
[...]
To me it is not compassionate to support someone who is dysfunctional without confronting the dysfunction directly. And that might even be by ignoring them when they are seeking unhealthy attention.



Can someone please explain to me, how these two sentences can be brought together ?
:confused:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Casting the first stone [Re: Diploid]
    #5765189 - 06/18/06 05:52 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Hey, don't dis my girl!  The only way she would outweigh Ted by 100 lbs. is if you dug him up & weighed him now:smirk:


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Casting the first stone [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5765210 - 06/18/06 06:00 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
[...]
To me it is not compassionate to support someone who is dysfunctional without confronting the dysfunction directly. And that might even be by ignoring them when they are seeking unhealthy attention.



Can someone please explain to me, how these two sentences can be brought together ?
:confused:




How about "you appear to be dysfunctional because of X, Y, Z behaviors.  I will no longer give you my attention for these behaviors."  Then you stop giving them attention for X, Y, Z.

It works with kids--I'll say "I don't like whining, I'm ready to listen to your regular voice."  They quit whining in order to receive my attention again.  If I gave them my attention for whining, then they would continue to see it as an effective method.

The same is true for adults.  They want attention, validation, admiration, a sense of belonging.  If they get what they want through dysfunctional means, they will continue to use that method.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Casting the first stone [Re: Veritas]
    #5765284 - 06/18/06 06:23 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

You mean. kids and adults have to present their reason for their 'whining'/dysfunction to you, then you will acknowledge it ?
I don't know if that is possible for these people in these situations/states of life.
So their complaints go unheard ?


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Casting the first stone [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5765335 - 06/18/06 06:39 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

If an adult wants to complain, or make a request, or express their feelings, they can do so in an appropriate manner. Kids learn this from their parents, unless their parents fail to educate them in basic communication and social interaction.

If they have reached adulthood without learning that people do not respond well to being verbally abused, then they will have some tough lessons ahead. I do not tolerate such behavior, and no explanation of the reasons why they are expressing themselves in an abusive and dysfunctional manner will make it appropriate. Thus, if someone wants to interact with me, they will interact in a civil manner, or not at all.

After I have requested a change in their behavior, and they have continued to be abusive, I will end the interaction. If they believe themselves incapable of respecting others, then I would not wish to interact with them, anyway.

If my kids are whining, being rude or disrespectful, I simply refuse to receive the information they are trying to communicate until they use their regular tone of voice. "I don't speak Whinese." They both know this, and so I rarely have to remind them.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Casting the first stone [Re: Veritas]
    #5765412 - 06/18/06 07:06 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I think there are situations, where you have to deal with a little 'distorted' mind, like your kid is bitten by a snake (no time for elaborating their whining), or exceptional states of minds of 'normal' humans, for example by shock, fear, love, whatever, what makes it worth to look behind the curtain, at the cause of it...
But each individual subjective level of distinction may differ here.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: Casting the first stone [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5765489 - 06/18/06 07:25 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Man has no "free will" since the Fall. Men act according to their natural condition. The corruption of nature means the "free will" choices of a fallen man will always choose wickedness.

Christian predestination is not contingent on foreseen events, rather events happen according to eternal decrees. These decrees are outside of events, the events happen according to the decrees, not the other way around.


London Baptist Confession of Faith (1689)

Of the Fall of Man, of Sin, and of the Punishment thereof
2. Our first parents, by this sin, fell from their original righteousness and communion with God, and we in them whereby death came upon all: all becoming dead in sin, and wholly defiled in all the faculties and parts of soul and body.
( Romans 3:23; Romans 5:12, etc; Titus 1:15; Genesis 6:5; Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 3:10-19 )

3. They being the root, and by God's appointment, standing in the room and stead of all mankind, the guilt of the sin was imputed, and corrupted nature conveyed, to all their posterity descending from them by ordinary generation, being now conceived in sin, and by nature children of wrath, the servants of sin, the subjects of death, and all other miseries, spiritual, temporal, and eternal, unless the Lord Jesus set them free.
( Romans 5:12-19; 1 Corinthians 15:21, 22, 45, 49; Psalms 51:5; Job 14:4; Ephesians 2:3; Romans 6:20 Romans 5:12; Hebrews 2:14, 15; 1 Thessalonians 1:10 )

4. From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions.
( Romans 8:7; Colossians 1:21; James 1:14, 15; Matthew 15:19 )

Westminster Confession of Faith (1646)
CHAPTER III.
Of God's Eternal Decree.

I. God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

II. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions; yet hath he not decreed any thing because he foresaw it as future, as that which would come to pass, upon such conditions.

III. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death.

IV. These angels and men, thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed; and their number is so certain and definite that it can not be either increased or diminished.

V. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ, unto everlasting glory, out of his free grace and love alone, without any foresight of faith or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving him thereunto; and all to the praise of his glorious grace.

VI. As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so hath he, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto. Wherefore they who are elected being fallen in Adam are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ by his Spirit working in due season; are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power through faith unto salvation. Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.

VII. The rest of mankind, God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of his own will, whereby he extendeth or withholdeth mercy as he pleaseth, for the glory of his sovereign power over his creatures, to pass by, and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praise of his glorious justice.


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Re: Casting the first stone [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5765529 - 06/18/06 07:36 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Of course there are extreme situations in which the observation of courtesy might be temporarily set aside. However, when someone is habitually and unreasonably rude, abusive and clearly unwilling to alter or even acknowledge their dysfunctional behavior, it comes down to a simple question: do I respect myself enough to end this interaction?


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Re: Casting the first stone [Re: fivepointer]
    #5765564 - 06/18/06 07:44 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

You know, I wouldn't go that far, but this post doesn't seem to be addressed to me either :wink:
You are baptist ? I think, if everything in life would be really predestined (especially that good/bad soul thingie), our existence would not make any sense.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Casting the first stone [Re: Veritas]
    #5765627 - 06/18/06 07:56 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Of course there are extreme situations in which the observation of courtesy might be temporarily set aside. However, when someone is habitually and unreasonably rude, abusive and clearly unwilling to alter or even acknowledge their dysfunctional behavior, it comes down to a simple question: do I respect myself enough to end this interaction?



Even habits may change and perhaps they are worth to be investigated further to look behind them, at their 'motivations', to support their prevention if they were 'unwanted'.
At least, I am interested in that information, as well, as what could make it subjective or objectively 'reasonable'.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Re: Casting the first stone [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5765638 - 06/18/06 07:59 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Do you mean professionally or personally?  It might be interesting to engage in therapeutic work with very dysfunctional people, but I would not want to invite them over for dinner.  I enjoy a lively conversation, but draw the line at psychotic outbursts.  :grin:


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Re: Casting the first stone [Re: Veritas]
    #5765686 - 06/18/06 08:10 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Professional, personal...yes, that line may be subjective in that way, but for a 'friend', I think, everyone might be a quite good therapist, as well as finding a good therapist or therapy for him.

I personally think 'psychotic outbursts' quite interesting, as long as their 'harm' stays debatable :grin:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Re: Casting the first stone [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5765700 - 06/18/06 08:13 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I don't expect my friends to be perfect, but I do require a certain level of respect and civility. I expect the same level of myself.

When they are in the midst of a crisis, they know that they can count on me to listen and refrain from judgment.  Likewise, I know that I can count on them to treat me with love and respect.  :shrug:

I guess it depends on what level of insanity is tolerable to you, and how it manifests itself.


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Re: Casting the first stone [Re: Veritas]
    #5765730 - 06/18/06 08:18 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
[...]
I guess it depends on what level of insanity is tolerable to you, and how it manifests itself.



Yes, and therefor to understand this subjectivity, I think ignorance is no good tool to promote compassion.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Casting the first stone [Re: Veritas]
    #5766716 - 06/19/06 03:02 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I mean, one 'confronts the dysfunction not directly' by 'ignoring' it, nor is it an act of compassion.
But thanks for the try of explanation, veritas !
:heart:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Offlineslaphappy
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Re: Casting the first stone [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5766744 - 06/19/06 03:16 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Is it just me, or are you all putting your opinions before other peoples opinions here?

Didn't silversoul cast the first stone?

Didn't I just reply with no intention of turning the other cheek?

Are we all stoned?


--------------------
The argent messenger of truth beyond truth, the antithesis of life, cruel and bleak as interstellar space, pulseless and frozen as absolute zero, dazzling with the frost of irrefragable logic and unforgettable fact.


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