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Ythan
ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ


Registered: 08/08/97
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Re: Casting the first stone [Re: Triplexiosis]
#5764805 - 06/18/06 03:46 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Predestination is the notion that a human's path is determined for them at birth. It doesn't matter if it's caused by God, the quantum state of the universe when they're conceived, or the society they're born into. Basically you are saying that Hitler's action are, if not excusable, at least understandable because of the circumstances he faced. I disagree, there are an infinite number ways to interpret and react to external stimuli, and these choices are what define your very character! It is never easy to rise above your surroundings but it can be done. And I will continue to look down on people who use the "poor me" excuse to justify all means of immoral behavior.
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Triplexiosis
Lachrymologist


Registered: 12/17/04
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Re: Casting the first stone [Re: Ythan]
#5764845 - 06/18/06 03:59 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Tnx for clarifying predestination. However what I'm saying is that IMO Hitler choose not to forgive for what has been done to him (be it molestation, brainwashing, whatever). In no way excusable, but by all means understandable. There is no excuse for immoral behavior, but I'm not and never will be in a position to pass judgment (even if I do it, it's meaningless and subjective). Sure you can rise abouve your surroundings, but it requiers at least some desire to do so, anger blinds this desire, and often people are missing these infinite opportunities for change. Mostly for they do not recognize them as opportunities, rather flaws in the old thought process.
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"If there were no desire to heal, the damaged and broken met along this tedious path I've choosen here, I certainly would have walked away by now" Tool - Patient "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye." Antoine de Saint-Exupery
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
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Re: Casting the first stone [Re: Ythan]
#5764848 - 06/18/06 03:59 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I don't believe anyone is attempting to justify behavior here. I see promotion of understanding, which will benefit one in their ability to navigate their life.
There is only one manner in which reality unfolds. One can point at another and proclaim that they have no excuse for not acting a certain way, but their action is the natural result of the culmination of all their experience. Our choices result from our perspective on life.
Promotion of this understanding is for the purpose of changing the way oneself acts. If one realizes the potential that another individual has, while realizing exactly where they are right now, then one can act in a manner that will most effectively influence them to "rise above one's surroundings", as you have put it.
There may be an infinite amount of potential ways to interact with one's environment in any given second, but it remains obvious that the previous moment plays an integral part in what occurs in the present moment. Cause and effect, and I have never seen someone succesfully deny the notion of cause and effect. Someone who does not know how to speak Finnish is not going to be held accountable for being able to do so, and someone who has not realized the most beneficial way to conduct one's life cannot be held as someone who has realized it.
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Casting the first stone [Re: Ythan]
#5764851 - 06/18/06 04:00 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Yes, character! What creates our character? Why does your character take the shape which rejects self-pity and blaming circumstances for the choices you make? Why does someone else's character take the opposite shape?
I never said that it was a matter of birth + circumstances, I said that our life experiences (which are interactive) + our inborn capabilities = who we become.
This is not predestination at all, as we can clearly see the difference character (interaction with our life experiences) creates in the outcome of a life. If we looked at birth + circumstances, we would predict that Oprah Winfrey would be a single mother on welfare living in the slums somewhere. She was financially and socially disadvantaged, abused, and seemingly "destined" for more of the same.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


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Posts: 24,855
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Re: Casting the first stone [Re: Veritas]
#5764855 - 06/18/06 04:04 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Exactly, and this is why we seek to understand reality so that we can interact with other's experience of reality in a manner that will bring them to understand more aspects of reality as well, thus being the change that is necessary.
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Ythan
ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ


Registered: 08/08/97
Posts: 18,774
Loc: NY/MA/VT Borderlands
Last seen: 4 hours, 58 minutes
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Thanks guys I dunno that I'll be changing my opinion but I must say you've given me a much better understanding of the opposing view and some of it even makes sense.
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Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Casting the first stone [Re: Veritas]
#5765140 - 06/18/06 05:35 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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What is that X factor which sets apart... Ted Bundy and Oprah Winfrey?
About 100 pounds?
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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BlueCoyote
Beyond


Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
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Re: Casting the first stone [Re: Icelander]
#5765154 - 06/18/06 05:39 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: [...] To me it is not compassionate to support someone who is dysfunctional without confronting the dysfunction directly. And that might even be by ignoring them when they are seeking unhealthy attention.
Can someone please explain to me, how these two sentences can be brought together ?
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Casting the first stone [Re: Diploid]
#5765189 - 06/18/06 05:52 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Hey, don't dis my girl! The only way she would outweigh Ted by 100 lbs. is if you dug him up & weighed him now.
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Casting the first stone [Re: BlueCoyote]
#5765210 - 06/18/06 06:00 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
BlueCoyote said:
Quote:
Icelander said: [...] To me it is not compassionate to support someone who is dysfunctional without confronting the dysfunction directly. And that might even be by ignoring them when they are seeking unhealthy attention.
Can someone please explain to me, how these two sentences can be brought together ?
How about "you appear to be dysfunctional because of X, Y, Z behaviors. I will no longer give you my attention for these behaviors." Then you stop giving them attention for X, Y, Z.
It works with kids--I'll say "I don't like whining, I'm ready to listen to your regular voice." They quit whining in order to receive my attention again. If I gave them my attention for whining, then they would continue to see it as an effective method.
The same is true for adults. They want attention, validation, admiration, a sense of belonging. If they get what they want through dysfunctional means, they will continue to use that method.
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BlueCoyote
Beyond


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Re: Casting the first stone [Re: Veritas]
#5765284 - 06/18/06 06:23 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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You mean. kids and adults have to present their reason for their 'whining'/dysfunction to you, then you will acknowledge it ? I don't know if that is possible for these people in these situations/states of life. So their complaints go unheard ?
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Casting the first stone [Re: BlueCoyote]
#5765335 - 06/18/06 06:39 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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If an adult wants to complain, or make a request, or express their feelings, they can do so in an appropriate manner. Kids learn this from their parents, unless their parents fail to educate them in basic communication and social interaction.
If they have reached adulthood without learning that people do not respond well to being verbally abused, then they will have some tough lessons ahead. I do not tolerate such behavior, and no explanation of the reasons why they are expressing themselves in an abusive and dysfunctional manner will make it appropriate. Thus, if someone wants to interact with me, they will interact in a civil manner, or not at all.
After I have requested a change in their behavior, and they have continued to be abusive, I will end the interaction. If they believe themselves incapable of respecting others, then I would not wish to interact with them, anyway.
If my kids are whining, being rude or disrespectful, I simply refuse to receive the information they are trying to communicate until they use their regular tone of voice. "I don't speak Whinese." They both know this, and so I rarely have to remind them.
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BlueCoyote
Beyond


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Re: Casting the first stone [Re: Veritas]
#5765412 - 06/18/06 07:06 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I think there are situations, where you have to deal with a little 'distorted' mind, like your kid is bitten by a snake (no time for elaborating their whining), or exceptional states of minds of 'normal' humans, for example by shock, fear, love, whatever, what makes it worth to look behind the curtain, at the cause of it... But each individual subjective level of distinction may differ here.
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fivepointer
newbie
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Re: Casting the first stone [Re: BlueCoyote]
#5765489 - 06/18/06 07:25 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Man has no "free will" since the Fall. Men act according to their natural condition. The corruption of nature means the "free will" choices of a fallen man will always choose wickedness.
Christian predestination is not contingent on foreseen events, rather events happen according to eternal decrees. These decrees are outside of events, the events happen according to the decrees, not the other way around.
London Baptist Confession of Faith (1689)
Of the Fall of Man, of Sin, and of the Punishment thereof 2. Our first parents, by this sin, fell from their original righteousness and communion with God, and we in them whereby death came upon all: all becoming dead in sin, and wholly defiled in all the faculties and parts of soul and body. ( Romans 3:23; Romans 5:12, etc; Titus 1:15; Genesis 6:5; Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 3:10-19 )
3. They being the root, and by God's appointment, standing in the room and stead of all mankind, the guilt of the sin was imputed, and corrupted nature conveyed, to all their posterity descending from them by ordinary generation, being now conceived in sin, and by nature children of wrath, the servants of sin, the subjects of death, and all other miseries, spiritual, temporal, and eternal, unless the Lord Jesus set them free. ( Romans 5:12-19; 1 Corinthians 15:21, 22, 45, 49; Psalms 51:5; Job 14:4; Ephesians 2:3; Romans 6:20 Romans 5:12; Hebrews 2:14, 15; 1 Thessalonians 1:10 )
4. From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions. ( Romans 8:7; Colossians 1:21; James 1:14, 15; Matthew 15:19 )
Westminster Confession of Faith (1646) CHAPTER III. Of God's Eternal Decree.
I. God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.
II. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions; yet hath he not decreed any thing because he foresaw it as future, as that which would come to pass, upon such conditions.
III. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death.
IV. These angels and men, thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed; and their number is so certain and definite that it can not be either increased or diminished.
V. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ, unto everlasting glory, out of his free grace and love alone, without any foresight of faith or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving him thereunto; and all to the praise of his glorious grace.
VI. As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so hath he, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto. Wherefore they who are elected being fallen in Adam are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ by his Spirit working in due season; are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power through faith unto salvation. Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.
VII. The rest of mankind, God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of his own will, whereby he extendeth or withholdeth mercy as he pleaseth, for the glory of his sovereign power over his creatures, to pass by, and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praise of his glorious justice.
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Casting the first stone [Re: BlueCoyote]
#5765529 - 06/18/06 07:36 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Of course there are extreme situations in which the observation of courtesy might be temporarily set aside. However, when someone is habitually and unreasonably rude, abusive and clearly unwilling to alter or even acknowledge their dysfunctional behavior, it comes down to a simple question: do I respect myself enough to end this interaction?
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BlueCoyote
Beyond


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Re: Casting the first stone [Re: fivepointer]
#5765564 - 06/18/06 07:44 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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You know, I wouldn't go that far, but this post doesn't seem to be addressed to me either  You are baptist ? I think, if everything in life would be really predestined (especially that good/bad soul thingie), our existence would not make any sense.
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BlueCoyote
Beyond


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Re: Casting the first stone [Re: Veritas]
#5765627 - 06/18/06 07:56 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said: Of course there are extreme situations in which the observation of courtesy might be temporarily set aside. However, when someone is habitually and unreasonably rude, abusive and clearly unwilling to alter or even acknowledge their dysfunctional behavior, it comes down to a simple question: do I respect myself enough to end this interaction?
Even habits may change and perhaps they are worth to be investigated further to look behind them, at their 'motivations', to support their prevention if they were 'unwanted'. At least, I am interested in that information, as well, as what could make it subjective or objectively 'reasonable'.
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Casting the first stone [Re: BlueCoyote]
#5765638 - 06/18/06 07:59 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Do you mean professionally or personally? It might be interesting to engage in therapeutic work with very dysfunctional people, but I would not want to invite them over for dinner. I enjoy a lively conversation, but draw the line at psychotic outbursts.
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BlueCoyote
Beyond


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Re: Casting the first stone [Re: Veritas]
#5765686 - 06/18/06 08:10 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Professional, personal...yes, that line may be subjective in that way, but for a 'friend', I think, everyone might be a quite good therapist, as well as finding a good therapist or therapy for him.
I personally think 'psychotic outbursts' quite interesting, as long as their 'harm' stays debatable
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Casting the first stone [Re: BlueCoyote]
#5765700 - 06/18/06 08:13 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I don't expect my friends to be perfect, but I do require a certain level of respect and civility. I expect the same level of myself.
When they are in the midst of a crisis, they know that they can count on me to listen and refrain from judgment. Likewise, I know that I can count on them to treat me with love and respect. 
I guess it depends on what level of insanity is tolerable to you, and how it manifests itself.
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