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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Casting the first stone
#5762646 - 06/18/06 12:17 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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One of the most self-destructive sins, but also one of the hardest to resist, is that of putting yourself above others. Now, I don't mean simply watching out for yourself. What I mean is the tendency to look down on others, and dismiss them as unworthy of our compassion. But, as Jesus teaches us, "Let the one among you who is without sin cast the first stone." How quick we are to judge others, and pretend that we are free of sin! Shame on us for reserving our compassion for those we agree with! Forgiveness is not simply that which we owe to others. It is necessary for our own well-being. When we refuse to forgive others, we destroy ourselves in the process. Not only should we love our enemies, as Jesus teaches us to do, but we should thank them for the lessons they have taught us. I swear to you, however hard it may be to love and forgive those you dislike, finding that love will make you stronger.
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spud
I'm so fly.

Registered: 10/07/02
Posts: 44,410
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Re: Casting the first stone [Re: Silversoul]
#5762736 - 06/18/06 12:38 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Do you speak of Original sin?
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Casting the first stone [Re: spud]
#5762747 - 06/18/06 12:41 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Not in the orthodox understanding of the term, no.
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Basilides
Servent ofWisdom


Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 7,059
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Re: Casting the first stone [Re: Silversoul]
#5763189 - 06/18/06 03:36 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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--------------------
    "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
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Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Casting the first stone [Re: Silversoul]
#5763303 - 06/18/06 04:56 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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It is necessary for our own well-being
Grudges are heavy things to carry around on your back all the time. Better to dump them and not look back.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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niteowl
GrandPaw


Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
Loc:
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Re: Casting the first stone [Re: spud]
#5763310 - 06/18/06 05:04 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
spud said: Do you speak of Original sin?
Isn't the original sin, temptation?
-------------------- Live for the moment you are in nowDon't be bogged down by your pastDon't be afraid of what lies in your future
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Ythan
ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ


Registered: 08/08/97
Posts: 18,774
Loc: NY/MA/VT Borderlands
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Re: Casting the first stone [Re: Silversoul]
#5763320 - 06/18/06 05:24 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I don't love my enemy and I do judge people based on their actions. People can prove themselves unworthy of compassion or understanding. I do not thank them for the lessons they taught me when I didn't want or ask for these lessons. I posit that by forgiving and loving someone who has done you a great wrong, you inherently endorse their behavior and devalue yourself. Better to put them out of your mind until you encounter them in a dark alley.
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goobler
Reanimated



Registered: 02/24/03
Posts: 48,909
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Re: Casting the first stone [Re: Ythan]
#5763367 - 06/18/06 05:54 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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then you can cast a REALLY big stone
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
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Re: Casting the first stone [Re: goobler]
#5763422 - 06/18/06 06:27 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
goobler said: then you can cast a REALLY big stone
Or a really, very small one...... traveling at a high velocity.....

 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


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Re: Casting the first stone [Re: Ythan]
#5763441 - 06/18/06 06:41 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ythan said: I don't love my enemy and I do judge people based on their actions. People can prove themselves unworthy of compassion or understanding.
Do you mean to state that they are unworthy of your understanding their nature? Personally, I think that one would actively seek out understanding, anywhere it can spring forth from. The more we understand other individuals, the more perspective we have which will benefit our understanding of ourself, and also our understanding of how to most effectively interact with others. You can relate to others more effectively when you understand more of who they are. 
As far as compassion goes, I don't see anyone unworthy of compassion either, even those who work agansit myself and my goals. If one understands them, and why they engage in the behavior that they do, one will have compassion for their suffering, because, in a sense, you will be experiencing it for yourself, and you will transcend it. You will realize where they are at, and that they are working some oppurtunities out in order to develop further, to transcend their suffering just as you had by relating to it from a higher perspective.
That said, compassion and understanding does not mean that we have to embrace these individuals or even concern ourselves with them, nor encourage their behavior further. Honestly, if one wishes to encourage someone else's behavior, then interact with them from a perspective of not understanding them. If you don't understand them, then you don't realize what effects your actions will have on them, and one, quite possibly, might just be antagonizing their wounds that cause them to cry out in their negative behavior.
I navigate to not purposefully bring such individuals into my life, but I realize that if I understand them and feel compassionate for them all the same, then that will naturally change my own behaviors in my interactions with other human beings, and that understanding will change others that I interact with. Existing as being compassionate and understanding will naturally work to heal others who are suffering, even if you do not involve yourself with them, as that would not be preferential, considering their negative behaviors. 
Its a form of predictive management, as opposed to reactive management. Adopt an outlook and a perspective (which I guess could be considered to be an outlook infused with understanding ) that understands how problems that will need to be addressed begin to develop, the behaviors that will naturally lead to the problems, and influence the manner in which such is unfolding in order to prevent the problems themselves from arising.

 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Ythan
ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ


Registered: 08/08/97
Posts: 18,774
Loc: NY/MA/VT Borderlands
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I guess I do think some people are unworthy of understanding their nature. If someone is a sociopath (and I've known a few), it really doesn't interest me how they got that way. Why should it? I have enough of my own problems and they certainly don't care about mine. I don't need to relate to them, I need to stop them or avoid them as the case may be. Similarly, if suffering leads someone to act in an immoral manner, it simply demonstrates their weakness in the face of adversity. Generally they are not "working some oppurtunities out in order to develop further", they are taking the path of least resistance. I don't feel any love, respect or compassion for someone who would seek to improve their own lot at the expense of others. Life is hard and they are weak. I do understand your point about predictive vs. reactive management, but rather than psychoanalyzing the antisocial behavior of others and attemting to rationalize or prevent it, I simply prefer to excise them from my life as quickly and efficienty as possible. I feel more self-respect from ending the abuse than from trying to convince myself their actions are justifiable.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
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Re: Casting the first stone [Re: Ythan]
#5763548 - 06/18/06 07:57 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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It does not pertain to whether or not their actions are justifiable, or analyzation of all aspects of another's behavior in order to build understanding. It simply means to realize that everyone is a human being and we are all likely experiencing some form of suffering that we are inflicting upon ourselves, and that we are all on different levels of awareness, and to simply acknowledge and be aware of that.
One doesn't have to associate with other individuals if one does not wish, and one does not have to build an in-depth understanding as to the nature of their specific problems in their situation. If one simply does not obstruct one's own understanding by divisive classifications and distinctions in one's thoughts, if we do not outright label them, then potenial for growth remains. 
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Casting the first stone [Re: Silversoul]
#5763622 - 06/18/06 08:34 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Basically I agree with your premise.
Also
I have found that sometimes what people mean by compassion is "I won't call you on your shit and you don't call me on mine".
The idea if tough love has some merit. I get down on the words of some folk here but that doesn't mean I hate them. Often I feel the most support I can give them is to confront them with my honest opinions. I always remember that I may be wrong. To me it is not compassionate to support someone who is dysfunctional without confronting the dysfunction directly. And that might even be by ignoring them when they are seeking unhealthy attention.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Casting the first stone [Re: Silversoul]
#5763866 - 06/18/06 10:16 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I think the most relevant question we can ask ourselves is: given the same circumstances and capabilities, would I be different from the human being whom I am judging?
The answer is always no.
We are different from them because we have been composed and shaped that way. Perhaps we have developed our willpower, or optimism, or emotional resilience, to a level which they have not. Perhaps we were gifted with greater intelligence, dexterity, strength, symmetry. Perhaps we were born into a loving, stable family, while they were literally or figuratively abandoned.
I know that my judgment of others, and my tendency to place myself above them, reflects my lack of development. It is very different to think "I prefer not to be in this person's company, as they seem very negative and destructive" vs. "what an asshole, I hate that kind of person, I would NEVER do anything like that."
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Ythan
ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ


Registered: 08/08/97
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Re: Casting the first stone [Re: Veritas]
#5764332 - 06/18/06 01:27 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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So you believe in predestination?
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
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Re: Casting the first stone [Re: Ythan]
#5764346 - 06/18/06 01:31 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Do you believe that we are a system that has a sensitive dependance on the initial starting conditions of the system?
I personally think that we are such a system, and I think that cause and effect clearly demonstrates this.
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Casting the first stone [Re: Ythan]
#5764348 - 06/18/06 01:33 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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No, I believe that all humans are shaped by their personal limitations and their reactions to their experiences. If I was born an identical twin to Hitler, and had the same life experiences, then I would have killed millions of Jews, too.
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Ythan
ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ


Registered: 08/08/97
Posts: 18,774
Loc: NY/MA/VT Borderlands
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Re: Casting the first stone [Re: Veritas]
#5764697 - 06/18/06 03:04 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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How is that different from predestination? If simply being born Hitler's twin is enough to turn you into a genocidal maniac then shit, I'm off to rob a bank, I can't help it it's because of my life experiences!
This is the typical liberal standpoint and it's one I disagree with wholeheartedly. I do believe we are system sensitive to the initial starting condition, but we have the ability to rise above adversity. Wallowing in self pity or acting immorally because of some perceived injustice is always a choice. To say otherwise is to deny the existence of the very free will which characterizes all of humanity.
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Casting the first stone [Re: Ythan]
#5764729 - 06/18/06 03:16 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Our life experiences consist of events AND our reactions to those events. If I were Hitler's identical twin, being brought up the same way, I would probably have the same reactions to my life experiences.
This is not a denial of free will, but a statement of probability. Certainly, Hitler could have made radically different choices--but he did not, and it is not probable that his twin would have, either.
Where does the ability to overcome adversity come from? What is that X factor which sets apart Viktor Frankl and Adolf Hitler? Lee Harvey Oswald and Gandhi? Ted Bundy and Oprah Winfrey?
What essential ingredients or abilities are required in the complex composition of a compassionate, benevolent human?
We always have the choice in our actions, but do we always know we have the choice? Why do we choose what we choose? These factors affect the practice of free will, they do not contradict it.
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Triplexiosis
Lachrymologist


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Re: Casting the first stone [Re: Ythan]
#5764755 - 06/18/06 03:26 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
How is that different from predestination?
How is it predestination if Veritas stated Quote:
...and had the same life experiences.
Life is hard yes, and "they" are weak. From my perspective lack of compassion for "bad people" is a weakness... underdevelopment. Weaknesses are not to be judged however, and by no means are they meant to be intergrated into your own life. That is not compassion, it's foolishness. Tough love is a great tool, but without "soft" love it's incomplete.
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"If there were no desire to heal, the damaged and broken met along this tedious path I've choosen here, I certainly would have walked away by now" Tool - Patient "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye." Antoine de Saint-Exupery
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