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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: An Inconvenient Truth [Re: kake]
    #5765772 - 06/18/06 08:29 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Anyone who doesn't think the climate's changing isn't paying attention. I don't need all these scientific measurements to tell me. This has been one of the wettest years ever in my hometown. There's very little predictability to it anymore. Make no mistake about it: global warming is fact. Sure, we may not drift into an ice age, but the fact is that we don't know what it's going to do. There are plenty of good estimates, though, and they're not pretty.


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OfflineSnaggletooth
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Re: An Inconvenient Truth [Re: Liz]
    #5765773 - 06/18/06 08:30 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

:popcorn:


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OfflineToTheSummit
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Re: An Inconvenient Truth [Re: Silversoul]
    #5768523 - 06/19/06 03:36 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

The problem with this whole debate is that right from the start it has been framed as more of a political debate then a scientific one. "Global Warming" is just the latest catch-phrase for the activists to hang their hat on while much of the so-called science they quote is at best incompetent and at worst outright lies.

Is the climate changing (warming or cooling, does it matter)? Probably. But it always has and always will, despite the best (or worst) efforts of man to affect it. Thruth is, we could do nothing to start or stop the cycles of the Earth's climate even if we wanted to. And I'm curious, have we affected the climate of Mars also? After all, it has been experiencing "global warming" during the last couple of decades just like Earth has. Maybe its those damn rovers we sent up there!

And the amount of acurate record keeping of weather patterns (maybe a century or so) which we can refer to is insignificant in the scope of geological times. Its like watching the sunrise for a minute and then declaring that its heating up and we are all gonna burn up in the next 24 hours.

But the thing that pisses me off the most about it all is the attitude of the fanatics that if I don't buy into their bogus theories then somehow I don't give a shit about the Earth or our environment. The self-important hipocracy that spews from these morons really gets old after a while!

/end rant


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: An Inconvenient Truth [Re: ToTheSummit]
    #5768711 - 06/19/06 04:32 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

It would be foolish to deny that the Earth warms and cools on its own. It would be equally foolish to deny how radically we've transformed the planet and the atmosphere since the industrial revolution. Also, knowing that the earth's climate is going through a major transition, it would be foolish not to take certain precautions.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: An Inconvenient Truth [Re: Silversoul]
    #5768721 - 06/19/06 04:34 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

It would be foolish to ask Americans to give up their plasma screen TV's and their SUV's.  :smirk:

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OfflinePhred
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Re: An Inconvenient Truth [Re: Silversoul]
    #5768739 - 06/19/06 04:39 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Also, knowing that the earth's climate is going through a major transition, it would be foolish not to take certain precautions.




"Major transition"? Nigga, please! Though there have been numerous figures tossed out there over the last few years, the most widely-cited number is 0.2 to 0.3 degrees C temperature raise in the last century. That's around 0.5 degrees F. And I will point out that even THAT number is disputed. Some data shows no rise, some shows a VERY slight drop.

But let's for the sake of argument accept the 0.3 figure as gospel. That in no way comes anywhere close to meeting the definition of a "major transition" in climate.




Phred


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OfflineSnaggletooth
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Re: An Inconvenient Truth [Re: Gumby]
    #5768741 - 06/19/06 04:40 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Gumby said:
As I said in the other thread about this movie:

Al Gore is a crack pot hippie loser.

Global warming is a myth used by the media to scare people and create news(and shitty movies, for that matter).

I refuse to see this movie.




It is a very really and serious thing and I have the graph to prove it,



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OfflineToTheSummit
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Re: An Inconvenient Truth [Re: Silversoul]
    #5768767 - 06/19/06 04:46 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
It would be equally foolish to deny how radically we've transformed the planet and the atmosphere since the industrial revolution.



Ummmm, no.  I see it as foolish to believe pseudo-science that says we have. :shrug:

Lets not forget that old mother earth herself spews more pollutants into her own atmosphere with a single large volcanic event then we humans have since the industrial revolution began.


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You invented the wheel....You push the motherfucker!!

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InvisibleIn(di)go
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Re: An Inconvenient Truth [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #5768879 - 06/19/06 05:15 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

kake said:
because you won't turn out to be right.




theres a hole in the ozone layer!!!!

it's still there, it's always been there, it will always be there
the earth goes through cycles, it always has.




yup... and that's why it's gonna wipe us off it's face before we do any irreparable damage... it's not the earth i'm worried about... earth will survive as it always has... it's our survival... especially the survival of our children and grandchildren...


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OfflinexDuckYouSuckerx
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Re: An Inconvenient Truth [Re: Shroomism]
    #5768889 - 06/19/06 05:17 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Shroomism said:
You mean until half the population of the Earth is dead or dying, right?




The mathematics involved in that comment just boggle my mind. First off, when you count population, you don't include dead people, if you did, you'd have the grand total of EVERYONE who's ever lived being chalked up as dead, which would be about 900x more than people are living now. And everyone on earth is dying, so i don't know watcha mean to say here


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Unions are the bastions of the mediocre. - luvdemshrooms

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InvisibleGumby
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Re: An Inconvenient Truth [Re: Silversoul]
    #5769430 - 06/19/06 07:14 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Anyone who doesn't think the climate's changing isn't paying attention. I don't need all these scientific measurements to tell me. This has been one of the wettest years ever in my hometown. There's very little predictability to it anymore. Make no mistake about it: global warming is fact.




So you base your facts on 1 year of difference out of the 4.5 billion + years of earth's existence, right?

1 different year out of 4,500,000,000+ years, that makes a fact?

Wow! I never knew science was that simple!

I've been having problems understanding the Laws of Thermodynamics, can you simplify that for me as much as you did global warming? It'd be greatly appreciated.

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OfflineSnaggletooth
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Re: An Inconvenient Truth [Re: Gumby]
    #5769439 - 06/19/06 07:17 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

^^^^No well all know it's Bush's fault or the lack of pirates :evil: :rolleyes:




BTW your totally right, :stoned:


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: An Inconvenient Truth [Re: Snaggletooth]
    #5769866 - 06/19/06 09:10 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

The glaciers are shrinking at an ever increasing rate, and within a hundred years or less at this rate, they'll nearly all be gone. 10,000 years since the last ice age, and they disappear in 150 years? There's your proof. To deny global warming is occuring with sea levels rising as they have been is simply repeating bushisms.

In addition, the last three generations have WIPED OUT 98% of the old growth forests in the US, and it's worse in most other countries where 100% of the native forests are gone. People seem to think they can plant tree farms to have an endless supply of wood for construction, but where the hell is the soil going to come from? Any gardener knows that as a plant grows it consumes nutrients from the soil, which must be replaced with new soil or by compost/fertilizer. In a native forest, it does that by large trees falling over and breaking back down into soil, returning that mass to the earth. When the trees are harvested and removed, no such rebuilding of the soil occurs.

Not to worry though. Mother nature will flush her toilet soon enough.

Oh yea, I havn't seen the movie. I gave up on al gore when he rolled over and played dead after he won the election, but refused to stand up and fight for the people who voted for him.
RR


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"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: An Inconvenient Truth [Re: ToTheSummit]
    #5770233 - 06/19/06 10:42 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

ToTheSummit said:
Quote:

Silversoul said:
It would be equally foolish to deny how radically we've transformed the planet and the atmosphere since the industrial revolution.



Ummmm, no.  I see it as foolish to believe pseudo-science that says we have. :shrug:

Lets not forget that old mother earth herself spews more pollutants into her own atmosphere with a single large volcanic event then we humans have since the industrial revolution began.



You live in San Bernardino, correct?  Look out your window and tell me what the sky looks like.  Do you think it looked like that 100 years ago?  Did a volcano spring up there since then?  Now, when I talk about transforming the planet, I'm not just talking about emissions.  Our changing of the earth's ecosystems has a major impact, too.

Now, as for the argument that since Earth has had climate change before that we are therefore not responsible for our current climate change, let me offer you a parallel argument:

There have been major extinction events before humans evolved.  Does this mean that human have not been responsible for any extinction events since arriving here?

It's simply mind-boggling to think that we can cut down all this rainforest and spew shit into the air and still think that we don't have an influence on the earth.  Global temperatures don't have to rise that much to have a major impact, and we know for a fact that CO2 is a greenhouse gas, and that we spew a shitload of it into the air.  When people say "Well, nature does it too," it reminds me of a little boy hitting his sister and saying "Well she started it!"  We really ought to more mature than this.

As for the "pseudoscience" bullshit, the Bush administration would certainly benefit greatly from debunking it, and yet the Federal Climate Change Science Program, commissioned by the Bush administration in 2002, released the first of 21 assessments which concluded that there is "clear evidence of human influences on the climate system."(link)  Now, I certainly wouldn't put it above the Bush administration to fund pseudoscience, but if they did, I would expect it to tow the Republican party line.  Calling this stuff pseudoscience reminds me of the creationists who say that evolution is "just a theory."  At least in that case, their anti-science stance isn't going to have a long-term impact on the earth's climate. :nonono:


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OfflineEmperorKuzco
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Re: An Inconvenient Truth [Re: Silversoul]
    #5771741 - 06/20/06 08:24 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Ok, it's time to stop the bullshit. Releasing one hundred million years worth of stored carbon (oil, natural gas, coal) in only a couple hundred years IS going to significantly raise the ppm of Co2 in the atmosphere. Co2 is a GREEN HOUSE GAS!

It's not exactly rocket science.

But let's say Al Gore is wrong. Lets say global warming is a myth. What is so freaking offensive about not buying an Escalade or using fluorescent bulbs?

If Al Gore is WRONG and we DO ween ourselves off of fossil fuels, at least OPEC no longer has the world by the balls and we won't have to go to war over oil when it eventually runs out.

If Al Gore is RIGHT and we DON'T do anything.....................


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: An Inconvenient Truth [Re: EmperorKuzco]
    #5772032 - 06/20/06 10:41 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I've actually been wondering if it's too late to stop global warming(btw, no actual scientist has doubted the phenomenon since 2001 -- it's just that some have disputed its causes). I agree, though, that whether or not global warming can be stopped, we still need to worry about peak oil.


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OfflineEconomist
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Re: An Inconvenient Truth [Re: EmperorKuzco]
    #5772985 - 06/20/06 04:00 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

EmperorKuzco said:
If Al Gore is WRONG and we DO ween ourselves off of fossil fuels, at least OPEC no longer has the world by the balls and we won't have to go to war over oil when it eventually runs out.

If Al Gore is RIGHT and we DON'T do anything.....................




The really funny part about this is that is Al Gore has been consistantly against nuclear power, the one, already discovered technology that could truly free the US from OPEC's control.

Furthermore, if we were to believe the everything Al Gore said was correct, then why wouldn't he want to replace coal and oil power plants with nuclear power? If he harbors an irrational fear of what has been proven to be a clean, safe method of generating electricity, that's his problem. If he wants to blame someone for failing to reduce emissions, he can blame himself and the policy pieces he created while VP of the US which were all adamantly against nuclear power. (I could only dig up one on the fly, but you can check it out here if you don't believe me on Al Gore's position: http://www.nirs.org/press/11-13-2000/1)

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: An Inconvenient Truth [Re: Economist]
    #5773017 - 06/20/06 04:09 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Economist said:
The really funny part about this is that is Al Gore has been consistantly against nuclear power, the one, already discovered technology that could truly free the US from OPEC's control.



Not really. The only reason people think nuclear power is so efficient is because it's subsidized by the government. In reality, it's no more efficient than solar power.

Quote:

Furthermore, if we were to believe the everything Al Gore said was correct, then why wouldn't he want to replace coal and oil power plants with nuclear power?



Because although nuclear power does not produce smog like coal and oil power do, it still gives off greenhouse gasses.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: An Inconvenient Truth [Re: Silversoul]
    #5773043 - 06/20/06 04:17 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Because although nuclear power does not produce smog like coal and oil power do, it still gives off greenhouse gasses.

Exactly!

People tend to forget how intensive an industry the nuclear industry is. Nuclear power plants don't build themselves!!!

They require enormous startup costs - both monetary and environmental. They also require a LOT more to maintain them during use than any other form of power generation. Then when the plant is at the end of its life...you're stuck with a bunch of now-radioactive building materials to dispose of.

I don't have any links so I can't really vouch for this....but I read somewhere that a nuclear power plant actually takes more energy to build, maintain, and decommission than it will ever generate during its lifetime. That would mean nuclear plants are a power sink...not a true power source. This wouldn't be very apparent right now because oil is still cheap enough that we don't think of the energy cost in building/maintaining something like a nuke plant.

That says nothing of the energy/resources required to mine, process, and enrich the nuclear material that the plant will use during its lifetime.

If the cost of oil continues to go up (which I think it will) we may suddenly discover that nuclear power isn't the "cheap, clean" energy source we always thought.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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OfflineEconomist
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Re: An Inconvenient Truth [Re: trendal]
    #5773511 - 06/20/06 06:33 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Two points:

First, I don't know where you guys get the whole "Nuclear Power Produces Greenhouse Gases". Both the Nuclear Energy Institute, and the nice people at the University of Michigan ( http://www.umich.edu/~gs265/society/greenhouse.htm ) disagree.

Second, nuclear power is only so expensive in the United States becasue it's so regulated. Nuclear power plants in the US are required to restrict radioactive emissions to a level that is actually BELOW the amount of radioactivity that coal and gas powerplants give out. Even the average hospital gives off way more radioactivity than the average nuclear plant. It has to be subsidized by the government because its so overly regulated by the government. If it really was an energy sink, then how would France be able to survive when they get over 70% of their energy from nuclear power?

The answer is simple, it isn't a sinkhole in France because the regulation isn't nearly as intense.

Investigate nuclear regulation in the US and you'll find 1 universal truth, there is too much regulation for anyone's good.

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