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Offlinemontmont
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Copelandia Cyanescens in New Zealand?
    #5756234 - 06/16/06 05:46 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

While it is currently right in the middle of the sub season, I've been researching up on where to find Copelandia Cyanescens in NZ. From looking here it seems as though the majority of the mushrooms taken are subs, along with a few Aucklandii.

So, does anyone have much luck finding Copelandia Cyanescens at all? Or is it the wrong season? I read on erowid that they grow in Taranaki on the coast line so am keen to see if they are further north out on the Waikato coast. Anyone found them this far north?


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OfflineMagicalKnife
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Re: Copelandia Cyanescens in New Zealand? [Re: montmont]
    #5756236 - 06/16/06 05:54 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Taranaki coast line is correct, John Allen (Mushroom John) confirmed that Pan. Cyanescens specimens were collected along that area but I am not sure exactly which months to start looking for them. They are a humidity loving mushroom so my guess is when summer is coming to an end and the autumn rains arrive.

At the moment I would expect it is too cold/too dry to find them although someone with more knowledge out there could prove me wrong. :mushroom2:


--------------------
?


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OfflineFeelers
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Re: Copelandia Cyanescens in New Zealand? [Re: MagicalKnife]
    #5756314 - 06/16/06 07:24 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

There are Pans in Nelson aswell (a hippie girl I talked to described them accurately and had tripped on them) - the term bluemeanie is supposed to be just for them.

I think people just arent looking for them - as noone is reporting them. A negative catch 22 I suppose.
There must be loads of Liberty Caps around also - but noone is posting finds of them either.


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OfflineRain_Lover
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Re: Copelandia Cyanescens in New Zealand? [Re: Feelers]
    #6964119 - 05/25/07 02:32 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Do these look like what you would call - "Blue meanies" or "Copelandia cyanescens" - We found them in the Southern North island of New Zealand and its the end of summer (humid warm) and the first rains were over the last two weeks.

We were told they were probably blue meanies but I don't fully trust the source - Sorry no spore print etc but heres the best details I can give.



Habitat: Found growing on & in amongst dead wood etc. in the forest.
Gills: Black (inside the head)
Stem: white, sturdy.
Cap: White
Spore print: unknown
Bruising: Blue all over the cap within about 10 seconds of being picked. Stem appeared to stay mostly white.
Location: Southern, North island, New Zealand

Thanks for your help.


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OfflineCyberdyne
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Re: Copelandia Cyanescens in New Zealand? [Re: Rain_Lover]
    #6964321 - 05/25/07 04:06 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

they look like those pouch fucker actives discovered a couple of years back by somebody...fantastic find if they are but get somebody like inski to ID them before you even think about eating them

most certainly not cyanescens though!


Edited by Cyberdyne (05/25/07 04:07 AM)


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Invisiblezee_werp
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Re: Copelandia Cyanescens in New Zealand? [Re: MagicalKnife]
    #6964457 - 05/25/07 05:21 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

MagicalKnife said:
Taranaki coast line is correct, John Allen (Mushroom John) confirmed that Pan. Cyanescens specimens were collected along that area but I am not sure exactly which months to start looking for them. They are a humidity loving mushroom so my guess is when summer is coming to an end and the autumn rains arrive.




I'm sorry but MJ did not confirm anything. He never collected them here himself. That whole article (Magic Mushrooms of Aust & NZ) is a little heavy with erroneous information. For example he states that Ps. cyanescens is present here and was likely introduced on purpose by trippers. Whereas it is actually Ps. subaeruginosa that most likely came here with trees and other plants brought from Australia, or simple accidental spore dispersal. However it got here it is at least known that it's Ps. subaeruginosa, not Ps. cyanescens.

MJ also states that:

"It is likely that persons experienced with the Australian situation recognized C. cyanescens and P. tasmaniana growing in the New Plymouth sand dunes, particularly at [a] beach which is popular with surfers."

Hmm, suspicious suspicious. Given that the only collections of P. tasmaniana in NZ have come with the affixed label 'Identification tentative / uncertain'. But what got me even more curious was this:

"Copelandia cyanescens (`blue meanies') predominates in the New Plymouth region, an area of intensive dairy farming. The mushrooms appear in autumn, most commonly under lupine bushes in coastal paddocks."

Coastal sand dunes under lupine bushes in autumn, describes exactly the habitat of Ps. subaeruginosa in many parts of NZ. Not the habitat of C. cyanescens. Those grow from shit. A cow cannot shit under a lupine bush. It's way too crowded in coastal lupine growths for a cow to hang out.

My tentative theory is that there was a general mixup (by MJ) with the terminology "Blue meanie", which in some parts of the world refers to C. cyanescens, but here in NZ it is used to describe literally any bluing psilocybin mushroom. MJ just published this stuff with no evidence. Unless I'm missing something and there is a herbarium specimen somewhere?

I have talked to many people who are avid shroom collectors and competent at identifying them. I've met them who have been to that area to seek the C. cyanescens, with no luck.

I am not saying that C. cyanescens is not present in NZ...I'm just saying that I'm yet to see any real evidence that it is. I challenge all north island shroomers out there to come up with the goods!


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Re: Copelandia Cyanescens in New Zealand? [Re: zee_werp]
    #6964469 - 05/25/07 05:31 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Also feelers, are you sure the chick described the substrate? I've met a hippie chick from Nelson who talked of eating blue meanies. She described what sounded like C. cyanescens, until I quizzed here more and it turned out that a "domed cap" with white / grey colouring and blue bruising actually meant a pouch fungus and it was not growing from dung but from the forest floor.


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Invisiblemjshroomer
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Re: Copelandia Cyanescens in New Zealand? (Update on Zee_werps Comments) [Re: zee_werp]
    #6964622 - 05/25/07 08:28 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Zee_werp,

Seeing that you only registered here at the shroomery in March of 2003, I believe you only looked at the Australian and New Zealand paper a few times because all erroneous statements regarding the presence of P. cyanescens in Australia and or New Zealand were removed on August 3rd, of 2003, as dated on the first page of the article at the Erowid site. That means you only may have viewed it between March and August 1st or so of 2003, a period of between five months in 2003. IT has not been in that site since.

Read the following which posted at the shroomery's shroom hunting forum were you posted you comments regarding my publication..

Quote:


Zee-werp,


First to correct you on some information you wrote above about my Magic Mushrooms of Australian and NZ paper being wrought with errors.

The Psilocybe cyanescens was identified and placed into the original paper from a paper published by Margot and Watling (1981), who analysed Psilocybe cyanescens in Australia.

Margot, P. and Roy Watling. 1981. Studies in Australian Agarics and Boletes II. Further studies in Psilocybe. Transactions of the British Mycological Society vol 76(3):485-489. June.

The first published report of the detection of psilocybin in Psilocybe eucalypta from Australia.

They published their analysis of Psilocybe cyanecens with other Australian shrooms, thus mislieading thaat their speciemwsn were from Australia. They did so without noting that the specimens of their P. cyanesens used for comparative analysis were obtained from the U of Washington in Seattle to do comparative analysis of them with Species already known to occur in Australia.

That information was found out by Guzman and me in 1992.

My original article was published in the Journal of Psychoactive Drugs in 1991 and then appeared in the erowid web site by me on JUNE 13, 1999, 8 years after it was first published in the journal.

The data on Psilocybe cyanescens being in Australia was then removed from all of Erowid's pages at my request when I noticed the discrepancy and wrote to Erowid in August of 2003 and then, at my request, Fire and Earth of Erowid removed all references pertaining to the presence of Psilocybe cyanescens in Australia on August 8 2003. That was exactly 3 years and 9 months ago. To mention it now is not right since it has not been noted on erowid for almost four years since. This shows how far back you do not notice or remember your shroom history.

The Copelandia information in the paper "Magic Mushrooms of Australia and New Zealand" is correct and the New Zealand section in the paper was written by Dr. Karl L. R. Jansen, at that time, of the University of Auckland, a medical Doctor who studied magic mushrooms and their use amongst college students and young adults in Auckland and elsewhere in New Zealand during the middle to later 1980s.

And in 1991, when the paper was published, Jansen had kept records of surveys and polls of kids in NZ who were referring to Copelandia species as blue meanies. Very few pickers in 1991 knew of any other shrooms out side of liberty caps (specimens from a lawn in Auckland of liberty caps are on deposit at the U of Auckland) and of Copelandias. Both of which they learned from pickers from Australia who also brought mushrooms to NZ to their friends in the early 1990s.

Very few pickers in NZ were aware in NZ of P. subaeruginosa at the time, although a few college students knew of its existence. And while I was the first to post the pictures of P. subaeruginosa from Australia, I also noted the presence of P. aucklandii and a few others, but a few other species are also in my notes of the period.

Also the paper was written as an overview and review of the known species and history of the time (1990), "Magic Mushrooms of Australia and New Zealand" and many of todays original NZ shroom pickers of the 1990s used that guide from the original journal publication for finding mushrooms in New Zealand and Australia. And from 1999 to 2003, Many also used it to find their shrooms.

btw, The paper which was somewhat a little updated for its appearance in Erowid website originally was published and appeared in "The Journal of Psychoactive Drugs" in 1991 (16-years ago this past January).

Allen, John W., Mark D. Merlin and Karl L. R. Jansen. 1991. An ethnomycological review of psychoactive agarics in Australia and New Zealand. Journal of Psychoactive Drugs vol. 23(1)39-69.

If you read the title it is just a review and at the time the only complete history of entheogenic fungi and their use in Australia and New Zealand. Species identification of over 18 varieties of entheogenic fungi from these two countries and 32 case histories of ingestion are presented as is a section on treatment for psilocybian intoxication. Many of those case histories of accidental ingestions and deliberate ones were not included in the article in the journal.

And Jansen had already written 2 articles about magic mushrooms in New Zealand before I even heard of him or met him.

Jansen, Karl L. R. 1982. Teonanácatl, the use and users of psilocybin mushrooms. Thesis. Behavioral Science Department. Dunedin, New Zealand.

And later He wrote this article before I started to Correspond with Karl. He originally contacted me in 1990 (A year before our paper was published) about adding a section to my Australian paper, where I did visit for several weeks a region from Adelaide into Queensland and up to Brisbane and Murwillumba (sp?).

Jansen, Karl L. R.
------. 1988. Magic mushrooms: A fast growing problem. Journal of General Practice vol. 5:7-10. New Zealand.

And as far as correspondence in the study of my paper, I not only visited with several of these people while visiting Australia listed in the acknowledgments but also corresponded with them over a three year period in the mail.

Acknowledgments of the Australian Paper


[Quote:]
The author of this guide expresses his gratitude to the following for their contribution to this paper: Dr. R. V. Southcott for providing case histories from Australia, and for supplying photographs of P. subaeruginosa; Dr. A. E. Stocks of the Brisbane Clinic; Dr. Malcolm C. Hall, General Manager of Vision Systems, Adelaide; Julie Shepherd of the National Library of Australia, Canberra, A.C.T.; Elizabeth Duncan, Secretary to the Editor of the Sunday Telegraph, Sydney; Crispin Hull, Editor of the Canberra Times, A.C.T.; The Librarian of the Biomedical Library, University of New South Wales; Field Naturalist Club of Victoria, South Australia; The Flora and Fauna of South Australian Handbooks Committee; Rob Hincksman of the Australian Government Publishing Service; J.A. Pitt, New South Wales Government, Department of Agriculture; Gretina Norton, Administrative Assistant of the Medical Journal of Australia; Eric J. Curtis, Laiason Officer of the Australian Federal Police in Honolulu; Dr. Peter Buchanan and Dr. Peter Johnson of the Auckland D.S.I.R.; Detective Sergeant John Dearing of the Auckland Drug Squad. A special note of appreciation to Chris King of the University of Auckland for the use of his photographs of Psilocybe aucklandii, Psilocybe australiana and one unidentified species from New Zealand. The author also expresses his gratitude to Dr. Gaston Guzmán of the Instituto De Ecologia, A.C., Mexico, D.F., and A. M. Young of Australia for their valuable assistance in reviewing the identification of species section; Dr. Mark D. Merlin of the University of Hawaii for his time and help in reviewing and editing this booklet for publication; Dr. Karl L. R. Jansen for editing and providing the section on New Zealand, who along with Dr. Rick Strassman of the University of New Mexico, Dr. Stanley Krippner of the Saybrook Institute and Dr. William Emboden of the California State University at Northridge reviewed the final manuscript; and a special note of gratitude to Dr. Roy Watling of the Royal Botanic Society of Edinburgh, Scotland, for his time and consideration in reviewing this manuscript prior to publication.




Jansen also wrote the definitive book on Ketamine. He is now a teacher of surgery at Oxford University in England. And as for New Zealand, Jansen knew the shrooms in his country, although the pouch fungi were not known to the pubic at the time of the paper in 1991.




And this is a photo of me on the ground preparing slides for a presntation and with black-beared psychonaut John Leonard of Massachusetts and the tall one in black is Dr. Karl L. R. Jansen and we were lecturing on Australian and New Zealand Shrooms, 1993.


I brought him first to America from New Zealand. as I have other scholars Iincluding Dr. Stijve and Dr. Gartz) to lecture here on shrooms from around the world.

Here is another image taken by anthropologist Jim Jacobs of Karl and I hunting Chanterelles in mountains 80 miles east of Salem, Oregon. I am standing on a log because karl is six foot four.



mj


Edited by mjshroomer (05/25/07 01:10 PM)


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OfflineRain_Lover
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Re: Copelandia Cyanescens in New Zealand? (Update on Zee_werps Comments) [Re: Rain_Lover]
    #6966524 - 05/25/07 07:35 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Well, I can safely reply to my own post now that those shrooms were very much active.

A very smooth trip, no clear hallucinations, but gave everything a very beautiful look after about 3 hours.
Would describe it as a miniture LSD trip.


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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: Copelandia Cyanescens in New Zealand? (Update on Zee_werps Comments) [Re: Rain_Lover]
    #6966667 - 05/25/07 08:43 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

These mushrooms are Weraroa novazelandiae, a member of the strophariaceae family.


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Invisiblezee_werp
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Re: Copelandia Cyanescens in New Zealand? (Update on Zee_werps Comments) [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #6967705 - 05/26/07 01:13 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

MJ, you just did a nice job of avoiding addressing the true issues of my post, by trying to confuse things with a bunch of vaugely related, or not related at all, information. For example what does when I registered at this site have to do with anything? I have hunted shrooms longer than I've been at this site.

I mean not to disrespect you or anyone else, I have the utmost respect for your many years of doing all things shroomy.

All that I am saying is that there is no concrete evidence that I can find about the presence of C. cyanescens in NZ. If you can give it to me, thats great. I'm just inquiring and you, if you are truly a scientist, should encourage inquiry. I have been to the university today and ordered a copy of the 1991 paper from J. of Psych. Drugs. Perhaps this will clear things up entirely for me.

All I want is a record of an herbarium specimen, or a recorded collection that has been properly ID'd by someone. A photo would be asking too much I guess.

Can you blame me for being sceptical? Your article states that C. cyanescens are found in the sand dunes under lupin bushes in autumn, alongside Ps. tasmaniana (= Ps. subaeruginosa). The substrate in lupin bushes is decaying lupin ground litter (wood, bark, leaves). The temperatures in coastal New Zealand in autumn reach a MAXIMUM of 20 degrees Celsius, reaching lows of 5 degrees Celsius or less. The temperature range for successful C. cyanescens initiation is 26-29 degrees Celsius.

The substrate and temps fit for Ps. subaeruginosa (Ps. tasmanaia). Are you agreeing that you could imagine finding some C. Cyanescens along the washington coast, next to some Ps. azurescens? I suspect not. Hence my scepticsism.

Also, you say that the erroneous information has been removed from your article at Erowid and I have been a naughty boy and not kept up-to-date on my info...actually, it was just yesterday that I looked there, and it still says that Ps. cyanescens is present in New Zealand. No mention of Ps. subaeruginosa though.

I realise that K. Jensen is a prestigious researcher...he knows a lot about ketamine. But did he ever collect, or personally identify, a specimen of C. cyanescens in NZ? Take note he is a neuropharmacologist, not a botanist.

I'm not trying to attack anyone here. I would just like to see some concrete evidence that C. cyanescens is present in NZ. One question though...have you ever picked a magic shroom in New Zealand?


Edited by zee_werp (05/26/07 01:20 AM)


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Invisiblezee_werp
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Re: Copelandia Cyanescens in New Zealand? (Update on Zee_werps Comments) [Re: zee_werp]
    #6990173 - 05/31/07 05:43 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Hey MJ...still waiting for your response on this. I've looked into it a little more, and I have found that while Landcare Research Fungi Database for NZ lists Copelandia cyanescens as 'Present in NZ', the only citation for that is your article.

As far as I can tell, you're article was based on hearsay, and no actual confirmed collections. Landcare research trusted that your article would be scientifically sound. Is the Journal of Psychoactive Drugs not peer reviewed? Perhaps it is from a drugs standpoint but not from a botanical one.

Again...maybe I am missing something. Would love some light to be shed on the issue.


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Re: Copelandia Cyanescens in New Zealand? (Update on Zee_werps Comments) [Re: zee_werp]
    #6990195 - 05/31/07 06:07 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

hmm it would have to be a hot wet summer for them to grow here I think...

but I have read somewhere, something about it. Years ago.. can't quite remember... ah well. Something about farmers getting angry at shroomers traipsing around in their paddocks. Which would imply they were probably not subaeruginosa, but copelandia cyanescens or even ps. semilanceata. Can't remember any details about season or anything..

Perhaps we should go on a road trip up there and find out for ourselves when the season's right?!?


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Re: Copelandia Cyanescens in New Zealand? (Update on Zee_werps Comments) [Re: haunted]
    #6990209 - 05/31/07 06:33 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Yeah I would like to sometime. One time when it's hot and wet, we should do the mish. It'd be a bit pricey on the petrol though...if we come up empty handed, we'll just have to send MJ the bill!



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Re: Copelandia Cyanescens in New Zealand? (Update on Zee_werps Comments) [Re: zee_werp]
    #6990304 - 05/31/07 08:21 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Hey Zee, I take it have you've seen the report of the pan cyans near New Plymoth, around the airport? I think that was Johns article. The girl from nelson gave a pretty accurate description, tall, pure white, bruise insanely blue. She gave us some goldtops, and she was adamant they were a different from them.
As for verifiable evidence, still nothing. I think we've brought this up before, and never got an answer.

I think MJ was talking about Psilocybe cyanescens, which is why his reply didn't answer your questions. There seems to have been a mix up between them and subs, which is what he is referring to I'm guessing.

SO - anyone have any evidence on Panaeolus cyanescens/Copelandia cyanescens in New Zealand? :crazy2:


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Re: Copelandia Cyanescens in New Zealand? (Update on Zee_werps Comments) [Re: Feelers]
    #6991564 - 05/31/07 03:30 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I just accidentally deleted the whole text here of what I just wrote so this is not the same as what I originally wrote here

I have been in contact with, seven herbariums in New Zealand since last we talked. So far only one has answered me and they said that had no C. cyanecens in their herbarium. That was from somwehere in Canterbury.

The reason I did not respond was that I am waiting for their responses to me.

I am aware of the Landsearch Fungi Data base and I have a robot reply that the manager of the fungal collections is on vacation and soon will get back to me.

This is a ,list of herbariums in New Zealand I have written to.


Quote:

Auckland U.-
Herbarium, School of Biological Sciences
University of Auckland





Quote:

Lincoln U in Canterbury,
Herbarium; Soil, Plant & Ecological Sciences Division
Lincoln University





Quote:

U of Canterbury, Christ Church , NZ
Herbarium, School of Biological Sciences
University of Canterbury




Quote:

University of Otago, Dunedin
Otago Regional Herbarium
University of Otago




Quote:

Massey University Parmerston North, NZ
Herbarium, Institute of Molecular Biosciences




Quote:

Victoria University of Wellington





mjshroomer

and one other one.

I left out the email addies and the names of the contacts there. One letter to me already asked me not to give out their email because they do not want, 'druggies' bothering their daily works as to asking questions about what hallucnogenic species they have in their herbarium.

Kinda like a particular garden in San Francisco which has Coca leaves growing on their premises uncer a different name, or the cacti lab at the UW which has San Pedro growing under a different name because some creep came by one day and cut about 8 cuttings from one of their cacti's.

mj

When I get the data I will post it.


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Re: Copelandia Cyanescens in New Zealand? (Update on Zee_werps Comments) [Re: mjshroomer]
    #6994180 - 06/01/07 02:25 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Thanks MJ


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Re: Copelandia Cyanescens in New Zealand? (Update on Zee_werps Comments) [Re: Feelers]
    #6996943 - 06/01/07 10:12 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Feelers said:
I think MJ was talking about Psilocybe cyanescens, which is why his reply didn't answer your questions. There seems to have been a mix up between them and subs, which is what he is referring to I'm guessing.





No that wasn't the reason...there was two seperate issues...firstly the issue of the Copelandia... Then there is the fact that MJ's article on erowid still states that Psilocybe cyanescens is in NZ, yet it does not mention Ps. subaeruginosa being here. MJ said that it was removed from the Australia section, but it is clearly still in the NZ section. It is true that for a while people thought that the Ps. subaeruginosa here were Ps. cyanescens, but it is now known to be not the case. Not that thats a big deal - its an understandable mis identification to make. I guess that MJ is just not aware that the article on erowid has not infact been changed. But perhaps that is the root of this whole thread - a confusion of genus names???

It's only the copes that I am really interested in. If the only "evidence" for them being here was MJ's article, and MJ had no evidence for his article, then it's logical to conclude that they may not be here. If the original article was based on a collection then there would be no need for MJ to be emailing every herbarium in NZ right now.


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Re: Copelandia Cyanescens in New Zealand? (Update on Zee_werps Comments) [Re: zee_werp]
    #6997248 - 06/01/07 11:20 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

If they were to naturalize here , what climate would suit them best ??

Taranaki gets the general vote because of he "blue meanie" legend and is supported by all the cattle herds , but wouldn't it be more likely to winter over further north e.g. Northland ?

It seems to me and i do find this interesting that The Surviving Winter Aspect would have to dominate the survival prospects of cope's in nz .. can anyone explain to me the method by which copes can winter over ? ? or do they only survive by continuing the spore/shroom growth cycle ?

I'm looking at Ordering some Cope's soon actually to study .. wanting to study the more Weather tolerant variety but from the Aussie/Hawaiian/Cambodian/Vietnam etc versions i am not sure which to select .. Any points of view on this ?

Also can the varieties cross breed ??


--------------------
It's a beautiful lie ..
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Horus: Coming from a human, remarks like that don't carry much weight.

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Re: Copelandia Cyanescens in New Zealand? (Update on Zee_werps Comments) [Re: zee_werp]
    #6997281 - 06/01/07 11:26 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

It does seem less and less likely that Copes are here in NZ, good on MJ for taking the time to find out though. :thumbup:

It does seem weird that Copes would be in New Plymoth, I don't really know how warm it is over there but I'd have guessed it's pretty cold. As for other places, the far north would be the obvious for them. The girl from Nelson also makes me think, Nelson does have a pretty warm climate but again no proof other than her description, (it's really bugging me!). Does Australia have Copes at all?


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