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OfflineFeelers
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Yet another Budget flow Hood Build.
    #5748758 - 06/14/06 06:18 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Well I'm building my own flow hood, and am going cheap but should be able to still get one that works well.

Had some good ideas from a friend of mine, and since I have no idea where the hell to get squirrel cage fans or what they are for, I'm using the fan from within the dashboard of a car. (the one that blows the heaters air around)

These fans run on 12 volts, and have varying wattages - something that you have to keep in mind as I have already found.
Basically you power it with a car battery charger and use a vairable resistor to change the flow rate - blow a candle at 45 degrees is what your aiming for if I remember correctly.
Car battery chargers are 12v , and either 4 or 6 amp. Meaning you need to find a car fan that's between 48 and 72 Watts.

1st mistake - I bought a 140w fan from an old Nissan, $20. Cant find a transformer (car charger with high enough ampage), so this is down the drain. :frown:

I like the idea of using a DC fan, - you can get them out of old cars, so, free for most people, and you can adjust the flow rate yourself instead of having to look at those graphs. And since getting a squirrel cage fan is hard for my situation, this is my only option.

I'll be posting pics and doing a proper write up when I get my shit together. :laugh:


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Yet another Budget flow Hood Build. [Re: Feelers]
    #5748791 - 06/14/06 06:45 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

The money you save on the fan is made up for by the cost of the charger. Plus then you have a battery charger running all the time. You might want to try the dump. Look for an old furnace or something like that. Or you can get a HEPA filter from walmart. The cheap ones are only 30-40 bucks and they have the fan and a filter built in.

Or try a thrift store.


-FF


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Re: Yet another Budget flow Hood Build. [Re: fastfred]
    #5748802 - 06/14/06 07:09 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Check out this design. I would change it a little though. Try putting the HEPA filter upside down and gluing or attaching it directly to the top rather than using the plastic.







The images aren't mine, they're Suntzu's.


-FF


--------------------
It drinks the alcohol and abstains from the weed or else it gets the hose again. -Chemy

The difference between the substances doesn't matter. This is a war on consciousness, on our right to the very essence of what we are. With no control over that, we have no need to speak of freedom or a free society. -fireseed

"If we are going to have a war on marijuana, the least we can do is pull the sick and the dying off the battlefield." -Neal Levine (MPP)

I find the whole "my drug should be legal but yours should be illegal" mindset disgusting and hypocritical. It's what George Bush and company do when they drink a cocktail and debate the best way to imprison marijuana users. -Diploid


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Yet another Budget flow Hood Build. [Re: fastfred]
    #5748807 - 06/14/06 07:18 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

No, he's wanting a flowhood. You can't get that from a $40 walmart filter, because you need laminar flow. You can use one of those for a prefilter though.

The problem with using a blower from a car which is almost always a squirrel cage by the way, is that the lower the voltage, the higher the current must be to provide the same horsepower(watts).

I would imagine any heater blower from a car will draw at least ten amps. Remember, in a DC circuit; Volts X Amps = Watts. This means a 12 volt motor that draws 10 amps will produce 120 watts. Note that 746 watts equals 1 horsepower.

If you wish to use a blower from a car heater, you'll need to connect it to a car battery. You can then use a small, 1 amp battery charger to keep the battery charged between uses.

Your motor would require a 140 watt rheostat, which would probably be at least twice the size and ten times the cost of the motor, if they even make such a thing. That's why most car blowers have four speeds built into the windings so they can use a switch instead of a variable resistor to control speed. A simpler, cheaper way to control airflow is to simply block off part of the intake.

A squirrel cage blower looks like the ferris wheel thingie your hamster used to run all night on when you were a kid. A blade fan looks like the propeller on a boat motor.

You can get a proper AC squrrel cage motor from Graingers for under $100. Read up on flowhood teks. Positive pressure gloveboxes don't work due to the turbulence that swirls contaminants into your work, making the problem worse, not better. If you build a glovebox, build a STILL AIR glovebox. Hope this helps.
RR


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Yet another Budget flow Hood Build. [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #5748851 - 06/14/06 07:49 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

You only need laminar flow for a laminar flow hood, not a regular flow hood. A regular flow hood is just like a fume hood in reverse.

Mycologists seem to like the laminar flow hoods of the style where the filter is as large as the back of the hood. It's a really cool design, but it's not really necessary. If you have the opening smaller than the entire front of the unit then you can get by with a much smaller filter and blower. It saves a lot of money. Those big units are really expensive.

I've made a unit with a $40 walmart HEPA and it worked great. I wish I still had it, or at least pictures. It worked fine, verified with open petri dishes sitting in it for long periods.

Look at the pictures. I can assure you that that setup works fine. It's not my setup but Suntzu claims it works fine. My setup had a plexiglass front that moved up and down like a standard laboratory fume hood front. You could get large objects into it and then close the front back down to make sure the airflow was sufficient.

Just look at the pics. That's a $40 walmart hepa and a ~$12 plastic box. It works just as well as the $300-$400 and up flowhood designs posted here. I would make it a little different if it were me and I had the extra cash to put a nicer front on it, but that's just me.

You can argue semantics and call it a pressurized glove box if you want, I won't argue with that, but I call it a flow hood.


-FF


--------------------
It drinks the alcohol and abstains from the weed or else it gets the hose again. -Chemy

The difference between the substances doesn't matter. This is a war on consciousness, on our right to the very essence of what we are. With no control over that, we have no need to speak of freedom or a free society. -fireseed

"If we are going to have a war on marijuana, the least we can do is pull the sick and the dying off the battlefield." -Neal Levine (MPP)

I find the whole "my drug should be legal but yours should be illegal" mindset disgusting and hypocritical. It's what George Bush and company do when they drink a cocktail and debate the best way to imprison marijuana users. -Diploid


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Re: Yet another Budget flow Hood Build. [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #5748876 - 06/14/06 08:03 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Positive pressure gloveboxes don't work due to the turbulence that swirls contaminants into your work, making the problem worse, not better. If you build a glovebox, build a STILL AIR glovebox. Hope this helps.
RR





I have to disagree with you on this point based on experience. If you have enough pressure and/or airflow any turbulence forms on the outside of your opening and doesn't matter.

I haven't tried the design in the pics, but based on them I would bet good money that it works great. I have built a unit with the same walmart hepa using the design I describe above. It worked great until I got rid of it even long after the filter turned totally black and should have been replaced. As much as I dislike walmart they carry the stuff you need at good prices. I don't want to sound like a walmart fan though.

You can verify your setup using a stick of incense. I did this many times and left petri dishes open inside the unit in the airflow for hours without contaminating.


-FF


--------------------
It drinks the alcohol and abstains from the weed or else it gets the hose again. -Chemy

The difference between the substances doesn't matter. This is a war on consciousness, on our right to the very essence of what we are. With no control over that, we have no need to speak of freedom or a free society. -fireseed

"If we are going to have a war on marijuana, the least we can do is pull the sick and the dying off the battlefield." -Neal Levine (MPP)

I find the whole "my drug should be legal but yours should be illegal" mindset disgusting and hypocritical. It's what George Bush and company do when they drink a cocktail and debate the best way to imprison marijuana users. -Diploid


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Re: Yet another Budget flow Hood Build. [Re: fastfred]
    #5750327 - 06/14/06 05:27 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I can vouch for that fact that this type of setup works. I made something similar with that very model of filter and it worked great.


--------------------
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OfflineFeelers
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Re: Yet another Budget flow Hood Build. [Re: Workman]
    #5750404 - 06/14/06 05:56 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

The problem is that I'm in New Zealand - those Hepa Walmart things arent in our market - and besides I am after a laminar flow hood.

RR - you can get car fans requiring different amps - the one I bought was 140W and 12V, meaning it requires 11.66Amps.
There are definately car fans that require less than this - my mate has one rated for 60 watts. Car batter chargers cost about $25 NZ new, so for a potentially free car fan and $25 charger - thats a damn cheap fan. ~$15 USD .
Car chargers are either 4 or 6 amp - this is why the fans need to be roughly 48 - 72 Watts.

I now have to look for another fan - I might go back to the wreckers for a smaller one - I dont have a car so that's why this is a problem. :laugh:


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Yet another Budget flow Hood Build. [Re: Feelers]
    #5750596 - 06/14/06 06:46 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

You can use as large of a 12V DC motor as you want as long as you connect it to a car battery. The battery will give you power to run the fan for several hours. The battery charger will be able to recharge the battery between uses. A 12" X 24" laminar flow hepa filter at 1" wc static pressure will require between a 300cfm and 500cfm blower to account for losses. Personally, I'd stick with the 140 Watt blower you already purchased. Just go get a cheap car battery and a cheap battery charger and you should be good to go. Just make sure it really is a squirrel cage blower as I described in the post above. I've never seen anything else in a car heater, but I'm not up to date on late model car stuff. I still drive my 1968 Ford pickup I bought brand new. (I'm old)
RR


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Yet another Budget flow Hood Build. [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #5750982 - 06/14/06 08:11 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Have you ever looked at those car fans?  They're small.  It really doesn't matter how much electricity they use if they're small, low CFM fans like all the ones I've ever seen they won't work.  The walmart HEPA shown above has a set of blades twice as big as most car blowers.  With a $25 charger and a ~$15 car blower you are already over the price of a cheap hepa.

Feelers, I think you need to do a cost analysis before you spend any more money.  If you're that worried about the cost of the blower how are you going to afford the MUCH more expensive filter and the cost of the materials to build it?

I say look for a decent size AC blower.  Maybe check at the dump or at an appliance place.  Look at the pics of flow hoods on this site.  Look at the blowers they have on them.  I don't think a car blower compares to any of the ones I've seen here.  Check the CFM before you spend money on it.  If you're going to build a smaller opening unit like I describe you can get away with just about anything.  But if you're going to build a true laminar flow hood like the kind often shown here you need to do it right.  Proper CFM, filter size, static pressure, the whole nine yards.

I found a great blower from american science and surplus for $15 a couple years ago.  It worked great and it was damn powerful.  Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think a car blower would cut it.


> I can vouch for that fact that this type of setup works. I made something similar with that very model of filter and it worked great.

Nana nana RR.  How do you like me now!  :razz: :wink:

You've always loved to argue the flow hoods with me.  You don't really think I'd bullshit someone by telling them something works just so they would fail.  So I think you just like to rub my face in the fact that you have a much better (and more expensive) *laminar* flow hood.


-FF


--------------------
It drinks the alcohol and abstains from the weed or else it gets the hose again. -Chemy

The difference between the substances doesn't matter. This is a war on consciousness, on our right to the very essence of what we are. With no control over that, we have no need to speak of freedom or a free society. -fireseed

"If we are going to have a war on marijuana, the least we can do is pull the sick and the dying off the battlefield." -Neal Levine (MPP)

I find the whole "my drug should be legal but yours should be illegal" mindset disgusting and hypocritical. It's what George Bush and company do when they drink a cocktail and debate the best way to imprison marijuana users. -Diploid


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OfflineFeelers
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Re: Yet another Budget flow Hood Build. [Re: fastfred]
    #5751124 - 06/14/06 08:45 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Cheers for your input and concerns guys. :grin:

It definately looks like a squirrel cage fan - its like this one - http://www.fluent.com/solutions/examples/ex104.pdf although the cage itself is poorly sealed. I'm consulting with my frind who's also building one, to make sure I'm on the right path. This guy knows his stuff. He seems to think it will have betwen 300-500cfms or even more.
He just text me back -
Quote:

consider this, a 120mm axial fan can move 2.3 cubic metres of air/min. At 12v dc and 4.65 watts at 3000 rpm



I just rechecked - (I thought he means amps above) current draw is 0.38 amps

I should hopefully be able to swap the fan at the wreckers for a smaller one. RR I do get that this will work with just a car battery and charger - but I'm after a whole unit in one, -turn on/turn off type thing and messing around with the battery would annoy me.

What are proper squirrel cage fans used for? I can still look into buying one, but someone said they cost around $200 NZ. I do have money - I just wanna save where I can, and this might be a really good way to do things, we will see. :grin:


Edited by Feelers (06/14/06 09:05 PM)


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Yet another Budget flow Hood Build. [Re: fastfred]
    #5751208 - 06/14/06 09:09 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Fred, I'm attempting to help a fellow enthusiast work out something. It matters little whether the blower came from a furnace or a car. A squirrel cage blower of a given size and wattage will produce airflow under pressure whether or not the power source is AC or DC. Don't stir up problems because you already know it all. If you're recommending a walmart hepa as a replacement for a hood, or telling someone they can glue a plastic walmart hepa to a glovebox and have it work well, you're terrible inexperienced from both an engineering and mycological perspective. Every noob comes up with that exact same idea, and honestly believes they're the first one to think of it. Please don't lead folks astray. I'd suggest you read the posts of the dozens or more people who have built positive pressure gloveboxes in the last year alone, only to throw away all the expensive stuff they bought and use it as gloveboxes are intended to be used, STILL AIR.

This gentleman is trying to build a laminar flow hood. Please don't confuse the subject.

Here's a physics lesson for you fred. The amount of power a motor consumes is directly related to the work it does. Reduce the load, and you also reduce the electrical current drawn. Increase the load and you increase the current draw. The blades on your walmart fan are larger because there's no static pressure on those silly paper filters. They want a lot of flow, because they're designed to remove large allergens such as tree pollen from a huge area to make it easier for people with allergies to breath. Attempting to use one of those fans for a laminar flow hood where static pressure is required would cause the blades to cavitate and little or no air would be moved. I've already recommended he purchase an AC motor rated to maintain 1" wc static pressure at the CFM required for his size filter. He wishes to try to use what he can find. Perhaps the guy is onto something, and perhaps he'll have the same problem with a car blower as your walmart fan would have. Don't attempt to stifle his experimentation because you have a hardon for me.

Feelers, count your blessings you have no walmarts in NZ. They're the worlds largest importer of worthless crap from China and they use their wealth to drive the competition out of a market, then raise prices to whatever level they want. They pay below market for wages because they've already driven out of business the other places their employees can work. Walmart employees are one of the largest drains on our welfare system because they can't afford food or medical care. Folks in the US should boycott walmart, not recommend them. Sorry to drift off topic. . .
RR


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Yet another Budget flow Hood Build. [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #5751274 - 06/14/06 09:24 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

2.3 cubic meters of air per minute will not be anywhere near enough for your purposes.

If you're going to use a 12V motor, you'll need a large one, and you'll need to use a battery. I suggest an AC motor. They're used in furnaces and air conditioning units. You can go to a local repair shop for furnaces and they'll have a junk unit or two out back that they'll probably let you canibalize for free or very cheap.

For a 12 x 24 laminar flow hepa, you'll want 350 to 500 cubic feet per minute. I'm sure you can find a conversion chart, but a meter is slightly larger than our 'yard' and there are 27 cubic feet in a cubic yard. You can divide the 500 CFM figure I gave by 27 to get a good starting point for the size blower you need. I would look for a blower in the neighborhood of 15 cubic meters per minute. If the flow is too high, block off part of the intake to the motor.
RR


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"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
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Re: Yet another Budget flow Hood Build. [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #5752371 - 06/15/06 04:51 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

That example was with a 12V, 0.4 amp fan - not as it would be with a car fan and battery charger - which can a power 6 amp 12V fan. That's more than an order of magnitude larger.
A quick conversion on google -
Quote:

500 ((cubic feet) per minute) = 14.1584233 (cubic meters) per minute




So if a 4.65W 12V 0.38A fan moves 2.3 cubic metres of air/min, a 72W 12V 6A fan should move..... 35.61 cubic meters of air per min.
The amount required is between 10 and 14 cubic meters per min.

Now that's assuming that the fan will be just as efficient, and probably wouldnt, but it suggests that this method could potentially supply enough air??? If I worked it out corectly.

We dont really have furnaces here. My only knowledge of a furnace comes from Home Alone, that scary thing in the basement.
:grin:
Another annoying problem is we dont have humidifiers here either. I might have to get one shipped from Oz or something. :evil:


Edited by Feelers (06/15/06 03:00 PM)


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Re: Yet another Budget flow Hood Build. [Re: Feelers]
    #5752538 - 06/15/06 07:07 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Not quite. The increase in airflow per amp drawn is not linear. You can't simply multiply amps and airflow. One actually increases proportional to the square of the other. For example, If you stick your hand out the window of your car at 50km per hour and measure the pressure on your hand, then speed your car to 100km per hour, the speed of your car has doubled, but the force on your hand has increased by the square of the speed increase. Therefore, doubling your speed has increased the pressure on your hand by a factor of 2 squared, or 4. Looking at this in reverse, it will take four times the energy to move twice the amount of air.

I would suggest you contact an HVAC supplier in NZ and tell them you need an AC motor that will deliver 400 to 500 cubic feet per minute at 1" of static pressure. Let them do the math for you. If you're building a 12 X 24 flowhood, you can use the US made Dayton electric motor, Model number 4C566A available from www.grainger.com Have your local supplier find an equivalent motor from their stock.
RR


--------------------
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semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison


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Re: Yet another Budget flow Hood Build. [Re: fastfred]
    #5753642 - 06/15/06 01:43 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

fastfred said:
Check out this design.  I would change it a little though.  Try putting the HEPA filter upside down and gluing or attaching it directly to the top rather than using the plastic.







The images aren't mine, they're Suntzu's.


-FF




Thanks Fred! I happen to have one of those Holmes units laying around and I was actually wondering if a setup like that would work. I'll give it a go. :thumbup:


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Re: Yet another Budget flow Hood Build. [Re: FooMan]
    #5754281 - 06/15/06 05:04 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I should have mentioned this earlier... Here's what I did to make sure the unit worked right. I glued and/or caulked around the filter to make sure it was totally sealed to the unit and that there was no blowby. I also duct taped the seams (along sides and back) of the unit to make sure there was no leakage there.

I never tried it without doing these simple modifications so I can't say for sure weather it would have worked or not without them. When I examined the unit closely I decided that there might be a chance of a small amount of blowby. By that I mean air that avoids going through the filter. The unit sucks air through the filter so it would actually be suckby.

Anyhow, examine the unit and consider doing what I did to it. Also please report your results as there seem to be some people who think I would just make up a bunch of bullshit in order to have people try it and fail.

Another point... I turned mine upside down to basically directly glue it to the box rather than the plastic setup in the picture. You can't get at the switches then though so I wired the plug through a light switch that I mounted on the side of the flow hood. It worked pretty slick. I also didn't directly glue it to the box, but rather put a bit of sticky weather strip around the hole on the box and another few strips around the exhaust on the top of the unit. Then a strip across the top front of the unit to level it. That part doesn't have to be completely sealed perfectly since the positive pressure will keep anything from entering any leaks. The weather strip setup worked great and I could easily get at the switches if I needed to, but if I had it to do again I would probably hot glue or caulk it directly to the top of the box just since the weather strip was somewhat of a hassle to do and an extra expense. Of course, the caulk would be too, but I usually have that on hand. GL

Oh, and I didn't find any difference with the ionizer off or on, so your guess is as good as mine as to which would be better. Be sure to expose a petri dish for a few minutes in it and see if anything grows in order to check the sterility of your air. Clean the unit out well and run it for awhile beforoe you try this because there might be a bit of dust in the unit if it's used. I made mine from a brand new unit so I didn't have that problem.


-FF


--------------------
It drinks the alcohol and abstains from the weed or else it gets the hose again. -Chemy

The difference between the substances doesn't matter. This is a war on consciousness, on our right to the very essence of what we are. With no control over that, we have no need to speak of freedom or a free society. -fireseed

"If we are going to have a war on marijuana, the least we can do is pull the sick and the dying off the battlefield." -Neal Levine (MPP)

I find the whole "my drug should be legal but yours should be illegal" mindset disgusting and hypocritical. It's what George Bush and company do when they drink a cocktail and debate the best way to imprison marijuana users. -Diploid


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Re: Yet another Budget flow Hood Build. [Re: fastfred]
    #5759637 - 06/17/06 02:23 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Ok - I got another fan for free out of my mates old car. I plugged it into an old computer 4Amp power supply - IT GOES NUTS.

Question is - how nuts does it have to go?
Can anyone give any rough ways to measure air output? I have no idea what 11 cubic meters/500 cubic foot per minute are supposed to feel like. Any suggestions?

This fan doesnt have anything written on it, we have a multimeter but are unsure how to measure the motors resistance, so cant work out how many amps its using. If its plugged in series - the motor dosnt go.

Im thinking that with a car charger of 6A, it should do really well. Also I have another old computer power pack(one that was outside for about a month) - that says it can give up to 8Amps at 12V, but it just cuts out after 1/2 a sec. I am unsure whether this is because its dead, or the fan is too much for it.


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Re: Yet another Budget flow Hood Build. [Re: Feelers]
    #5759897 - 06/17/06 06:53 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

After reading computer power supply ratings - they are definately sufficient to power one of these fans - even more than my large 140W fan.
The good computer power supplys I have been looking at can give 12V at 28Amps! Bloody heaps, so I'm just after an old reliable one that does 8A or more.

I will definately turn this into a "how to" with pics etc. providing the fan is giving enough air.


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Re: Yet another Budget flow Hood Build. [Re: Feelers]
    #5759911 - 06/17/06 07:10 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

>Can anyone give any rough ways to measure air output?

A very rought way is to have a BIG PLACTIC BAG of a known volume, and inflate it using the fan, and measure the time.


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Re: Yet another Budget flow Hood Build. [Re: Anno]
    #5759967 - 06/17/06 08:12 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Haha - well, thats gonna be difficult. I only have large black rubbish bags.

Ok - just made some huge estimations. The black bag we worked out is approximately 0.1 cubic meters. The fan can probably fill the bag extremely quickly, well under a second.
It will fill it waay to fast - I'm looking for it to fill the bag 0.4 seconds or under. Its late, so I'll be doing this tomorrow. :laugh:
I definately think the 0.4secs is feasable. Especially since this is on a lower power supply than I intend to get.

Sounds like I need a bigger bag :frown:


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Re: Yet another Budget flow Hood Build. [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #5770030 - 06/19/06 09:56 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

> It matters little whether the blower came from a furnace or a car.

Or course it doesn't. I'm simply pointing out my observation that, without doing all the calculations, I note that the blowers I see on the flow hood designs here are large units and the ones I've seen on cars are *much* smaller units.

> A squirrel cage blower of a given size and wattage will produce airflow under pressure whether or not the power source is AC or DC.

I realize this also. I'm not arguing that a AC motor will outperform a DC motor of the same size and power. I'm trying to point out that the car blowers I'm familiar with are both smaller and draw less power than the AC blowers I've seen.

> Please don't lead folks astray.

I'm not. I can't help other's failures with whatever problems they had, but the setup I described worked well for me for the year long period that I used it for. I used it frequently and did many types of work in it. I know for FACT that it works, I would not be saying that if I didn't know FOR SURE. Unless they changed the unit it will work again for other people, which is why I offer advice on how to build a flow hood using one.

> I'd suggest you read the posts of the dozens or more people who have built positive pressure gloveboxes in the last year alone,

Sure I'd love to, can you point me to them? I'd be interested to find out why theirs failed. It would be good to know why some fail and other setups work. You seem to think that any setup not based on a full sized filter and totally laminar flow will not work. I'm telling you that's not the case.

> Every noob comes up with that exact same idea, and honestly believes they're the first one to think of it.

I'm hardly a "noob". Retired would be more accurate. I've never claimed to come up with the idea. In fact, I've always said that my design was based almost exactly on a reversed standard fume hood setup.

> Here's a physics lesson for you fred.

I hated physics. Got a D in physics 2. Perhaps you can teach me where others have failed.

> Attempting to use one of those fans for a laminar flow hood where static pressure is required would cause the blades to cavitate and little or no air would be moved.

I don't understand that. Perhaps you can elaborate. If you consider the fan and filter as a unit, as I tend to do, the only measurement that I really understand is the CFM of the unit as a whole. I don't know what the static pressure behind the filter is, and I'm not sure why I should care.

I have no doubt that the unit I refer to would fail if you tried to create a laminar flow from it. However, I've pointed out a few times that the design I suggest would not be a laminar flow. It would have vortexes and turbulence inside the unit rather than laminar flow. The opening in the front however would maintain good airflow across the entire opening. That's why it's important that the opening be no larger than what the airflow (CFM) of the unit is capable of maintaining sufficient airflow through.

> Don't attempt to stifle his experimentation because you have a hardon for me.

I'm not trying to. He posted to get other people's opinions. I gave mine, and rather than just saying I don't think car blowers are powerful enough I offered an alternate solution that worked for me.



-FF


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Re: Yet another Budget flow Hood Build. [Re: fastfred]
    #5770116 - 06/19/06 10:20 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I appreciate everyones input. :laugh: You guys all have lots of experience, in this case I wanted to try something new, and as it stands I am quite sure it will work.

I have found another solution to powering the unit, not with car battery chargers (the dont supply enough current and moderately expensive) or with a computer power pack (the ones capable of supplying 12Amps are expensive too).

My solution now is - use more than one shit computer power pack, wired in parallel. Most people can get old 4Amp computer power packs for free, so two or three of them would definately be sufficient to power the fan. I have figured out the wiring required too, quite simple)

Considering the fan went NUTS on 4 amps, going full out I definately think it would supply enough air. Unfortunately the new fan I have doesnt have a power rating on it- but I think it's ~140W, possibly less, meaning it needs 11.6Amps. This fan has a really nice housing - nice and sealed, intake and outtake areas perfect for this application. The fan I wasted $20 on had a real crap housing that would have been really inefficient.

I might try to borrow a camera and get some pics up - maybe a vid of the blower in action, but if it goes 3 times as nuts on 11Amps than 4 (which I know isnt true - thanks RR :grin:) , it will at least be a small localised hurricane. :shoppingcart:


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Re: Yet another Budget flow Hood Build. [Re: Feelers]
    #5770212 - 06/19/06 10:37 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Unless the power supplies are made to work together, they won't load share. If one is even 1/10 of a volt higher than the other, it will try to hog all the load and burn up, then the other one will.

An AC motor is still your best bet. Your stores and business have air conditioning systems I'm sure. Just look up a supplier and get a motor from them.
RR


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Re: Yet another Budget flow Hood Build. [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #5770311 - 06/19/06 11:00 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

http://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=1747223&cid=
please school me if im just ignorant to this. but what if you used one of these for air?


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Re: Yet another Budget flow Hood Build. [Re: Tomandjerry58]
    #5771109 - 06/20/06 01:45 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Hey RR - I asked on a computing forum about wiring in parallel.

Quote:

No worries, the load will drag them down to equal voltages because it bridges the outputs. With a piece of wire across the two outputs there's no show of a voltage differential appearing.




So I'm gonna give it a jam. :laugh:


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Re: Yet another Budget flow Hood Build. [Re: Tomandjerry58]
    #5782659 - 06/23/06 12:42 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

It would take like one of them $300.00 4 feet filter for that badboy, but it be nice for work area


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Re: Yet another Budget flow Hood Build. [Re: fastfred]
    #5791931 - 06/26/06 09:48 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

fastfred said:
Check out this design. I would change it a little though. Try putting the HEPA filter upside down and gluing or attaching it directly to the top rather than using the plastic.







The images aren't mine, they're Suntzu's.


-FF




lol thats a good way to contam mad shit lol


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Re: Yet another Budget flow Hood Build. [Re: lordoftheshroomz]
    #5792779 - 06/26/06 02:54 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

> lol thats a good way to contam mad shit lol

I used a similar design for about a year with no problems. And about 4-5 other people here have vouched for the fact that the design works.

So you are just plain wrong. Did you try a design like this and fail? If so, you should post about it and maybe we can figure out why some people fail while others have great success. If you haven't tried it then you're just talking out your ass about something that you know nothing about.


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Re: Yet another Budget flow Hood Build. [Re: fastfred]
    #5959433 - 08/13/06 02:38 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

http://www.sciplus.com/recommend.cfm?rec...75%26start%3D22

there's a nice fan... There's other blowers on that page too... including small squirrel cages, but most are only rated for 20-50cfm. I think the link i provided is one of the higher powered ones, seems like it would be adequete for a flow hood design.


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Re: Yet another Budget flow Hood Build. [Re: Feelers]
    #6064787 - 09/15/06 01:38 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

I recently built a laminar flow hood/glove box/whichever you want to call it.  I wish I had seen this thread first though.  I might have had a better idea of what I was doing.  Mine seems to be in line with the other contraptions.  I just tried to model it off of flow hoods I've seen in labs.

I'm just looking for advice on any improvements to be made.  This was just an experiment with what I had.  Old broken fan, cheap tote, duct tape, etc.



I bought HEPA filters as an after thought, and I haven't installed them yet.  The ones I have are made for a vacuum cleaner but they were on sale for 3 dollars, so I figured I can incorporate them somehow.

The intake is a pringles can going through the top of the plastic tote.  I filled it with cotton (on the advice of a friend) in place of a HEPA filter.  Seems like it should keep pesky spores out.



I cut a hole (which was slightly exhaustive work) for the fan and caulked around it.  It seems like running it for 15 minutes after putting inoculation eq. in it should take care of contamination problems.

But I wanted to be extra hardcore about it, so we cut holes in it and I fixed dishwashing gloves in there. 





finally to store it, I just clean this bowl and put it over the fan (same for the dixie cup).  I want to get weather stripping for the bottom of the bowl to try to make it slightly more airtight. 

I know other people have posted basically the same design, but I'm proud of my work  :thumbup:  I know it isn't perfect, and eventually I want to install the HEPA filters (they are sitting on top of the box in one of the pictures). 

My only other problem is that the top isn't sealed (because I need a way to put stuff in it.  I eventually want to outfit a door, but I can't see how that will be possible with the materials I have.

It only cost me 20-25 bucks to build this (not including the fan, that's been sitting around my apartment, broken for a year now).  Also a few late nights of work went into it.

I wish I had a room in my apt. to dedicate to science projects.  Soon! (maybe.)

Anyway, thoughts?


pax


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Re: Yet another Budget flow Hood Build. [Re: blindchameleon]
    #6064992 - 09/15/06 02:47 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

That's a glovebox. Take the fan off and use it as a still air glovebox and you can easily get a 99% success rate or better. A flowhood requires a much more expensive filter and squirrel cage fan with a free air space in front so it won't create turbulence that will blow contaminants into your work.

All you need for a glovebox is a tote with a couple of arm holes cut in. A glovebox by design does not have sterile air inside. It has STILL air inside. Good luck.
RR


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Re: Yet another Budget flow Hood Build. [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #6066868 - 09/16/06 02:04 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

I see quite a few problems with your design. You really need to have 100% HEPA filtered air. You need a blower and a filter, a fan won't be strong enough. There's quite a few designs posted here. You should study up on them a bit. There are a lot of ways to build a flowhood, but you're pretty far out in left field.


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Re: Yet another Budget flow Hood Build. [Re: Feelers]
    #8519893 - 06/13/08 01:58 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Where can I find those photo's mentioned in the post? I have a home-made glovebox but I am experiencing high contam rates...but I am still working out the methods. I was just at walfart the other day looking at the desktop hepa filters.

I was thinking of cutting a hole in the back of my "glove-box" big enough to slide the blowing end into and then stuffing the crevasses around it with closed cell foam. Think that would work?


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Re: Yet another Budget flow Hood Build. [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #8571670 - 06/27/08 04:41 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:

Your motor would require a 140 watt rheostat, which would probably be at least twice the size and ten times the cost of the motor, if they even make such a thing. That's why most car blowers have four speeds built into the windings so they can use a switch instead of a variable resistor to control speed.  A simpler, cheaper way to control airflow is to simply block off part of the intake.
RR




Cars do have a variable resistor... Its not built into the windings at all... in the airflow box (usually ac side) there is a resistor block, it has 3 resistors that allow for 4 speeds in most cases... The power being directed to the terminals of the resistor by the setting of the switch (12v) determines the speed at which the fan runs at buy directing the electrical flow thru 1(mid-high)-2(med) all 3(low) or none (high) of the resistors, and thus increasing/decreasing the voltage being applied to the fan. when the voltage decreases the amperage will increase naturally, so you wanna make sure you have it all fused...

so i could suggest that he uses a resistor block from any car that allows for the flow desired... just remember... the coils get hot so you want them in the airstream somewhere, thats why they are placed where they are in cars.
Your still going to need a larger amperage power supply tho, you still need to provide 30amps to the fan


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Re: Yet another Budget flow Hood Build. [Re: P.Menace]
    #8572134 - 06/27/08 07:03 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Interesting.  Perhaps some do, but in the cars and trucks I own, the blowers have individual wires for each speed, and a switch to select each speed.  No resistors.  I know, I just changed one out recently.
RR


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Re: Yet another Budget flow Hood Build. [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #8572175 - 06/27/08 07:20 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

well... I am an ASE certified Mechanic... and i say they do... maybe not the newest of new cars but MOST if not all older models have one...

ever had an old car where high is the only blower setting that worked?
That was the resistor block being fried... its a daily thing to change them for me


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Re: Yet another Budget flow Hood Build. [Re: Feelers]
    #8576242 - 06/29/08 01:55 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

the best and cheapest blower fan i ever got was inside a leaf blower that i got at a pawn shop for $5. its not loud and it gives me all the air i need for my flow hood.
  to find blower fans just look through your local pawn shops for just about anything that blows. leaf blowers, window sized swamp coolers, hair driers. if you have one around a manufactures surplus stor will have about a 1,000 of them laying around.
  as for testing air flow a bic lighter will tell you all you need to know. if the air flow dose not bend the flam 90 degrees then you dont have enough air flow. if the air flow blows out the bic lighter you have too much air flow.


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Re: Yet another Budget flow Hood Build. [Re: trentallica]
    #8576249 - 06/29/08 02:00 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

yeah... but if it bends a flame at 90 degrees before it has a pre and post hepa filter... theres no way that the fan will have enough force to create the laminar flow...

IDK i can keep blowing this shit up till im blue in the face and noone will get it...


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Re: Yet another Budget flow Hood Build. [Re: P.Menace]
    #8576292 - 06/29/08 02:35 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

WTF P.

  how you just going to make some shit up and through it in the topic, and try to make it look  like im the fucking moron. you did not blow shit up. all you did was make shit up.
  did i say anything about "pre" anything. no. and my answer stands as stated. the entire notion of testing a pre filter applied flow hood is moronic. the end result is what matters, and that is what i limited mt response to.
  if you just want to make a list of shit i  " failed" to mention it wont matter how well your air flow is if you dont remove any dead animals from the air chamber. that would be the "post" filter chamber if you wanted to know. you might also want to make sure that you are above water while all this is going on. and while you are bring up stupid shit just why did you fail to mention in detail just what kind of filter you are talking about. i hope its not just a screen cover, because that would not work at all. although it would have minimal impact on the air flow, and you just might get away with a "pre" instillation of filter air flow bic lighter test.


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Edited by trentallica (06/29/08 02:37 AM)


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Re: Yet another Budget flow Hood Build. [Re: trentallica]
    #8576325 - 06/29/08 02:49 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

:bitchplease: Get a life man... Buy a Laminar flowhood

Some cheap ass fan will not create a LAMINAR flow thru the "static pressure" of a true Hepa filter, or "Post" filter...

And as for the "dead animals" in the flowhood... You have a problem that I do not... and am not Jealous of either.:offtopicman:

as for the rest of that idiotic rant... No comment :topicsucks:


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Re: Yet another Budget flow Hood Build. [Re: P.Menace]
    #8576673 - 06/29/08 07:52 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

:lol:


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Re: Yet another Budget flow Hood Build. [Re: trentallica]
    #8581226 - 06/30/08 06:15 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

trentallica said:
the best and cheapest blower fan i ever got was inside a leaf blower that i got at a pawn shop for $5. its not loud and it gives me all the air i need for my flow hood.




leaf blowers and most 'consumer' blowers have universal motors,
they're all loud, induction motors like the ones in furnace
blowers are quiet


I picked up one of these, it's a hepa drop ceiling insert for
clean rooms, only paid $60 after shipping, a little scavenged
lexan and I had a bullet proof flow hood



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Re: Yet another Budget flow Hood Build. [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8581485 - 06/30/08 07:14 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

$250.00 Complete unit... Just took a little looking is all

Drop Ceiling mount aswell


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Re: Yet another Budget flow Hood Build. [Re: Workman]
    #10421547 - 05/29/09 07:06 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Workman said:
I can vouch for that fact that this type of setup works.  I made something similar with that very model of filter and it worked great.




i can vouch too. i use something similar. only i use a trash bag in place of the glovebox. perfect for the traveling cultivator.

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/10415444/fpart/1/vc/1


--------------------
EAT GETS SHIT DONE


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Re: Yet another Budget flow Hood Build. [Re: eatyualive]
    #10485228 - 06/10/09 09:35 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

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