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OfflineFeelers
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Re: Yet another Budget flow Hood Build. [Re: Anno]
    #5759967 - 06/17/06 08:12 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Haha - well, thats gonna be difficult. I only have large black rubbish bags.

Ok - just made some huge estimations. The black bag we worked out is approximately 0.1 cubic meters. The fan can probably fill the bag extremely quickly, well under a second.
It will fill it waay to fast - I'm looking for it to fill the bag 0.4 seconds or under. Its late, so I'll be doing this tomorrow. :laugh:
I definately think the 0.4secs is feasable. Especially since this is on a lower power supply than I intend to get.

Sounds like I need a bigger bag :frown:


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Yet another Budget flow Hood Build. [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #5770030 - 06/19/06 09:56 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

> It matters little whether the blower came from a furnace or a car.

Or course it doesn't. I'm simply pointing out my observation that, without doing all the calculations, I note that the blowers I see on the flow hood designs here are large units and the ones I've seen on cars are *much* smaller units.

> A squirrel cage blower of a given size and wattage will produce airflow under pressure whether or not the power source is AC or DC.

I realize this also. I'm not arguing that a AC motor will outperform a DC motor of the same size and power. I'm trying to point out that the car blowers I'm familiar with are both smaller and draw less power than the AC blowers I've seen.

> Please don't lead folks astray.

I'm not. I can't help other's failures with whatever problems they had, but the setup I described worked well for me for the year long period that I used it for. I used it frequently and did many types of work in it. I know for FACT that it works, I would not be saying that if I didn't know FOR SURE. Unless they changed the unit it will work again for other people, which is why I offer advice on how to build a flow hood using one.

> I'd suggest you read the posts of the dozens or more people who have built positive pressure gloveboxes in the last year alone,

Sure I'd love to, can you point me to them? I'd be interested to find out why theirs failed. It would be good to know why some fail and other setups work. You seem to think that any setup not based on a full sized filter and totally laminar flow will not work. I'm telling you that's not the case.

> Every noob comes up with that exact same idea, and honestly believes they're the first one to think of it.

I'm hardly a "noob". Retired would be more accurate. I've never claimed to come up with the idea. In fact, I've always said that my design was based almost exactly on a reversed standard fume hood setup.

> Here's a physics lesson for you fred.

I hated physics. Got a D in physics 2. Perhaps you can teach me where others have failed.

> Attempting to use one of those fans for a laminar flow hood where static pressure is required would cause the blades to cavitate and little or no air would be moved.

I don't understand that. Perhaps you can elaborate. If you consider the fan and filter as a unit, as I tend to do, the only measurement that I really understand is the CFM of the unit as a whole. I don't know what the static pressure behind the filter is, and I'm not sure why I should care.

I have no doubt that the unit I refer to would fail if you tried to create a laminar flow from it. However, I've pointed out a few times that the design I suggest would not be a laminar flow. It would have vortexes and turbulence inside the unit rather than laminar flow. The opening in the front however would maintain good airflow across the entire opening. That's why it's important that the opening be no larger than what the airflow (CFM) of the unit is capable of maintaining sufficient airflow through.

> Don't attempt to stifle his experimentation because you have a hardon for me.

I'm not trying to. He posted to get other people's opinions. I gave mine, and rather than just saying I don't think car blowers are powerful enough I offered an alternate solution that worked for me.



-FF


--------------------
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OfflineFeelers
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Re: Yet another Budget flow Hood Build. [Re: fastfred]
    #5770116 - 06/19/06 10:20 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I appreciate everyones input. :laugh: You guys all have lots of experience, in this case I wanted to try something new, and as it stands I am quite sure it will work.

I have found another solution to powering the unit, not with car battery chargers (the dont supply enough current and moderately expensive) or with a computer power pack (the ones capable of supplying 12Amps are expensive too).

My solution now is - use more than one shit computer power pack, wired in parallel. Most people can get old 4Amp computer power packs for free, so two or three of them would definately be sufficient to power the fan. I have figured out the wiring required too, quite simple)

Considering the fan went NUTS on 4 amps, going full out I definately think it would supply enough air. Unfortunately the new fan I have doesnt have a power rating on it- but I think it's ~140W, possibly less, meaning it needs 11.6Amps. This fan has a really nice housing - nice and sealed, intake and outtake areas perfect for this application. The fan I wasted $20 on had a real crap housing that would have been really inefficient.

I might try to borrow a camera and get some pics up - maybe a vid of the blower in action, but if it goes 3 times as nuts on 11Amps than 4 (which I know isnt true - thanks RR :grin:) , it will at least be a small localised hurricane. :shoppingcart:


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Yet another Budget flow Hood Build. [Re: Feelers]
    #5770212 - 06/19/06 10:37 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Unless the power supplies are made to work together, they won't load share. If one is even 1/10 of a volt higher than the other, it will try to hog all the load and burn up, then the other one will.

An AC motor is still your best bet. Your stores and business have air conditioning systems I'm sure. Just look up a supplier and get a motor from them.
RR


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InvisibleTomandjerry58
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Re: Yet another Budget flow Hood Build. [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #5770311 - 06/19/06 11:00 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

http://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=1747223&cid=
please school me if im just ignorant to this. but what if you used one of these for air?


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OfflineFeelers
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Re: Yet another Budget flow Hood Build. [Re: Tomandjerry58]
    #5771109 - 06/20/06 01:45 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Hey RR - I asked on a computing forum about wiring in parallel.

Quote:

No worries, the load will drag them down to equal voltages because it bridges the outputs. With a piece of wire across the two outputs there's no show of a voltage differential appearing.




So I'm gonna give it a jam. :laugh:


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Offlinegorgebush
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Re: Yet another Budget flow Hood Build. [Re: Tomandjerry58]
    #5782659 - 06/23/06 12:42 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

It would take like one of them $300.00 4 feet filter for that badboy, but it be nice for work area


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Offlinelordoftheshroomz
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Re: Yet another Budget flow Hood Build. [Re: fastfred]
    #5791931 - 06/26/06 09:48 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

fastfred said:
Check out this design. I would change it a little though. Try putting the HEPA filter upside down and gluing or attaching it directly to the top rather than using the plastic.







The images aren't mine, they're Suntzu's.


-FF




lol thats a good way to contam mad shit lol


--------------------
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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Yet another Budget flow Hood Build. [Re: lordoftheshroomz]
    #5792779 - 06/26/06 02:54 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

> lol thats a good way to contam mad shit lol

I used a similar design for about a year with no problems. And about 4-5 other people here have vouched for the fact that the design works.

So you are just plain wrong. Did you try a design like this and fail? If so, you should post about it and maybe we can figure out why some people fail while others have great success. If you haven't tried it then you're just talking out your ass about something that you know nothing about.


-FF


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Invisibleliamtheloser
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Re: Yet another Budget flow Hood Build. [Re: fastfred]
    #5959433 - 08/13/06 02:38 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

http://www.sciplus.com/recommend.cfm?rec...75%26start%3D22

there's a nice fan... There's other blowers on that page too... including small squirrel cages, but most are only rated for 20-50cfm. I think the link i provided is one of the higher powered ones, seems like it would be adequete for a flow hood design.


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Offlineblindchameleon
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Re: Yet another Budget flow Hood Build. [Re: Feelers]
    #6064787 - 09/15/06 01:38 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

I recently built a laminar flow hood/glove box/whichever you want to call it.  I wish I had seen this thread first though.  I might have had a better idea of what I was doing.  Mine seems to be in line with the other contraptions.  I just tried to model it off of flow hoods I've seen in labs.

I'm just looking for advice on any improvements to be made.  This was just an experiment with what I had.  Old broken fan, cheap tote, duct tape, etc.



I bought HEPA filters as an after thought, and I haven't installed them yet.  The ones I have are made for a vacuum cleaner but they were on sale for 3 dollars, so I figured I can incorporate them somehow.

The intake is a pringles can going through the top of the plastic tote.  I filled it with cotton (on the advice of a friend) in place of a HEPA filter.  Seems like it should keep pesky spores out.



I cut a hole (which was slightly exhaustive work) for the fan and caulked around it.  It seems like running it for 15 minutes after putting inoculation eq. in it should take care of contamination problems.

But I wanted to be extra hardcore about it, so we cut holes in it and I fixed dishwashing gloves in there. 





finally to store it, I just clean this bowl and put it over the fan (same for the dixie cup).  I want to get weather stripping for the bottom of the bowl to try to make it slightly more airtight. 

I know other people have posted basically the same design, but I'm proud of my work  :thumbup:  I know it isn't perfect, and eventually I want to install the HEPA filters (they are sitting on top of the box in one of the pictures). 

My only other problem is that the top isn't sealed (because I need a way to put stuff in it.  I eventually want to outfit a door, but I can't see how that will be possible with the materials I have.

It only cost me 20-25 bucks to build this (not including the fan, that's been sitting around my apartment, broken for a year now).  Also a few late nights of work went into it.

I wish I had a room in my apt. to dedicate to science projects.  Soon! (maybe.)

Anyway, thoughts?


pax


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Yet another Budget flow Hood Build. [Re: blindchameleon]
    #6064992 - 09/15/06 02:47 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

That's a glovebox. Take the fan off and use it as a still air glovebox and you can easily get a 99% success rate or better. A flowhood requires a much more expensive filter and squirrel cage fan with a free air space in front so it won't create turbulence that will blow contaminants into your work.

All you need for a glovebox is a tote with a couple of arm holes cut in. A glovebox by design does not have sterile air inside. It has STILL air inside. Good luck.
RR


--------------------
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Re: Yet another Budget flow Hood Build. [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #6066868 - 09/16/06 02:04 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

I see quite a few problems with your design. You really need to have 100% HEPA filtered air. You need a blower and a filter, a fan won't be strong enough. There's quite a few designs posted here. You should study up on them a bit. There are a lot of ways to build a flowhood, but you're pretty far out in left field.


-FF


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OfflineSporelific
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Re: Yet another Budget flow Hood Build. [Re: Feelers]
    #8519893 - 06/13/08 01:58 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Where can I find those photo's mentioned in the post? I have a home-made glovebox but I am experiencing high contam rates...but I am still working out the methods. I was just at walfart the other day looking at the desktop hepa filters.

I was thinking of cutting a hole in the back of my "glove-box" big enough to slide the blowing end into and then stuffing the crevasses around it with closed cell foam. Think that would work?


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Re: Yet another Budget flow Hood Build. [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #8571670 - 06/27/08 04:41 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:

Your motor would require a 140 watt rheostat, which would probably be at least twice the size and ten times the cost of the motor, if they even make such a thing. That's why most car blowers have four speeds built into the windings so they can use a switch instead of a variable resistor to control speed.  A simpler, cheaper way to control airflow is to simply block off part of the intake.
RR




Cars do have a variable resistor... Its not built into the windings at all... in the airflow box (usually ac side) there is a resistor block, it has 3 resistors that allow for 4 speeds in most cases... The power being directed to the terminals of the resistor by the setting of the switch (12v) determines the speed at which the fan runs at buy directing the electrical flow thru 1(mid-high)-2(med) all 3(low) or none (high) of the resistors, and thus increasing/decreasing the voltage being applied to the fan. when the voltage decreases the amperage will increase naturally, so you wanna make sure you have it all fused...

so i could suggest that he uses a resistor block from any car that allows for the flow desired... just remember... the coils get hot so you want them in the airstream somewhere, thats why they are placed where they are in cars.
Your still going to need a larger amperage power supply tho, you still need to provide 30amps to the fan


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roby000 said: thats true a shotgun is almost like a college degree in a sense that if you show it to the right person at the right time you could make a lot of money.


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Yet another Budget flow Hood Build. [Re: P.Menace]
    #8572134 - 06/27/08 07:03 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Interesting.  Perhaps some do, but in the cars and trucks I own, the blowers have individual wires for each speed, and a switch to select each speed.  No resistors.  I know, I just changed one out recently.
RR


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Re: Yet another Budget flow Hood Build. [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #8572175 - 06/27/08 07:20 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

well... I am an ASE certified Mechanic... and i say they do... maybe not the newest of new cars but MOST if not all older models have one...

ever had an old car where high is the only blower setting that worked?
That was the resistor block being fried... its a daily thing to change them for me


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roby000 said: thats true a shotgun is almost like a college degree in a sense that if you show it to the right person at the right time you could make a lot of money.


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Offlinetrentallica
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Re: Yet another Budget flow Hood Build. [Re: Feelers]
    #8576242 - 06/29/08 01:55 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

the best and cheapest blower fan i ever got was inside a leaf blower that i got at a pawn shop for $5. its not loud and it gives me all the air i need for my flow hood.
  to find blower fans just look through your local pawn shops for just about anything that blows. leaf blowers, window sized swamp coolers, hair driers. if you have one around a manufactures surplus stor will have about a 1,000 of them laying around.
  as for testing air flow a bic lighter will tell you all you need to know. if the air flow dose not bend the flam 90 degrees then you dont have enough air flow. if the air flow blows out the bic lighter you have too much air flow.


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Re: Yet another Budget flow Hood Build. [Re: trentallica]
    #8576249 - 06/29/08 02:00 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

yeah... but if it bends a flame at 90 degrees before it has a pre and post hepa filter... theres no way that the fan will have enough force to create the laminar flow...

IDK i can keep blowing this shit up till im blue in the face and noone will get it...


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roby000 said: thats true a shotgun is almost like a college degree in a sense that if you show it to the right person at the right time you could make a lot of money.


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Offlinetrentallica
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Re: Yet another Budget flow Hood Build. [Re: P.Menace]
    #8576292 - 06/29/08 02:35 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

WTF P.

  how you just going to make some shit up and through it in the topic, and try to make it look  like im the fucking moron. you did not blow shit up. all you did was make shit up.
  did i say anything about "pre" anything. no. and my answer stands as stated. the entire notion of testing a pre filter applied flow hood is moronic. the end result is what matters, and that is what i limited mt response to.
  if you just want to make a list of shit i  " failed" to mention it wont matter how well your air flow is if you dont remove any dead animals from the air chamber. that would be the "post" filter chamber if you wanted to know. you might also want to make sure that you are above water while all this is going on. and while you are bring up stupid shit just why did you fail to mention in detail just what kind of filter you are talking about. i hope its not just a screen cover, because that would not work at all. although it would have minimal impact on the air flow, and you just might get away with a "pre" instillation of filter air flow bic lighter test.


--------------------
The only ones for me are the mad ones..........
                  :ass2mouth:


Edited by trentallica (06/29/08 02:37 AM)


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