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RandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
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Re: Order in English [Re: quillini]
#5749424 - 06/14/06 11:54 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
quillini said: White people who fawn over minorities do so because they choose to, and then they blame "political correctness" so they can avoid taking responsibility for their own actions and decisions.
Political Correctness is a social phenomenon. It is a nebulous but strictly adhered to ideology for a lot of people.
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quillini
one meanmotorscooter


Registered: 04/18/06
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That's funny, I've never once heard anybody claim "political correctness" to be their guiding ideology. All the publicity this ideology gets is negative.
IMO, "political correctness" is one of those things, like "liberal media" or "vast right-wing conspiracy", that doesn't really exist except in the minds of people who insist on finding some justification for their irrational fear or hatred.
-------------------- No; truth, being alive, was not halfway between anything. It was only to be found by continuous excursions into either realm, and though proportion is the final secret, to espouse it at the outset is to insure sterility. Only connect...
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blacksabbathrulz

Registered: 05/22/02
Posts: 2,511
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Re: Order in English [Re: quillini]
#5749663 - 06/14/06 01:19 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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The owner of Geno's is a hero. Absolute hero.
-------------------- .
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
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Posts: 15,608
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Re: Order in English [Re: quillini]
#5749729 - 06/14/06 01:40 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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quillini said: That's funny, I've never once heard anybody claim "political correctness" to be their guiding ideology.
Political correctness is an exaggerated form of Leftism. Nobody ever claims it or admits to it.
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quillini said: IMO, "political correctness" is one of those things, like "liberal media" or "vast right-wing conspiracy", that doesn't really exist except in the minds of people who insist on finding some justification for their irrational fear or hatred.
Blind jingoistic patriotism exists amongst certain people of the world. Religious fanaticism exists amongst certain people of the world. And, political correctness exists amongst certain people of the world.
Some common tenets of political correctness:
1. A hatred of the strong and a love of the weak in every situation. 2. An almost irrational desire for tolerance of or affinity toward anything that is different or unnacceptable in the parent culture. 3. An aversion to cultural, geographical, or national ties (unless they are exhibited by an "oppressed" people). These ties are often viewed as backwards and almost caveman-like. 4. A yearning for human enlightenment and utopia that is based upon materialism and "progressiveness". Often this progressiveness involves the muzzling of human behavior and economic activity.
Edited by RandalFlagg (06/14/06 01:43 PM)
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Phred
Fred's son


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Re: Order in English [Re: Phred]
#5749862 - 06/14/06 02:34 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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From the way this thread is going off on tangents, I guess I must have phrased my original question too broadly. Rather than ask whose side you are on, it would have been better if I had asked if you agree with the actions the city government is taking to harass the restaurant owner.
So here is the new question to refocus the thread:
Do you agree with the Philadelphia city government's actions in this matter? If so, why? If not, why not?
Phred
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Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Order in English [Re: Phred]
#5749930 - 06/14/06 02:58 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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I think the city is off base dictating how a private business is run.
I also think immigrants have a duty to learn the country's language and since that's not going to be any flavor of Native American, the next best thing is to integrate and learn English. That's the language our founding documents are written in and is the predominant language of the country.
If I move to France, I think I would be insulting the French were I not to at least learn passable French.
In south Florida, where I live and grew up, a huge fraction of the population that has been here for decades still can't speak a word of English. Instead, Latinos congregate in neighborhoods where all the local businesses speak Spanish. They do this to avoid learning English.
Also, it's interesting to note that the International Civil Aviation Organization, the group that manages the rules of aviation, has designated English as the official language of pilots. To be issued a pilot's license by any signatory country (pretty much all countries) you must speak and write English well enough to work in the system.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
Edited by Diploid (06/16/06 05:48 AM)
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xDuckYouSuckerx
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Re: Order in English [Re: Mezcal]
#5750020 - 06/14/06 03:29 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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snyder said: Because it's a lot easier to call discrimination free speech when one isn't often a victim of it.
Now, I'm not calling anybody a racist, but I think it's easy to see that this is an issue of sensitivity; in stead of choosing to develop a culture of brotherhood and equality, he chose to be "mean-spirited and divisive" to borrow Kenney's words.
I don't mean to be rude, but thats freaking retarded. How is it "discrimination" for a man to run his business as he sees fit? If he doesn't speak spanish, and Pedro comes in and says "Dos bisteak por favor", what the fuck should he do? Magically understand the language? What if someone comes in and speaks in Hindi, or farsi? It's this guys job to understand every language in the world? If he doesn't understand ooga-booga language from Zimbabwe, hes discriminating and a racist? How idiotic.
-------------------- Unions are the bastions of the mediocre. - luvdemshrooms
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xDuckYouSuckerx
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Re: Order in English [Re: Basilides]
#5750037 - 06/14/06 03:32 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Basilides said: Obviously non-white immigrants aren't going to have a pretentious attitude about speaking the English language.
If you ran a business and someone came in speaking Farsi, what would you do? Immediately call a translator, at your expense? Learn their language, at your expense? Hardly any sane person would do that. They'd make it clear that they spoke one language and if you didn't speak it, well, communication as a whole is impossible.
Quote:
Anywho.. This restaurant owner is an asshole, but it's his private business so he can run it anyway he sees fit. He might even end up taking the sign down eventually because I doubt Latinos and other immigrants are going to frequent that establishment often. I know I wouldn't.
Actually, if you'd have read the initial story, you'd see that non-english speaking people DO come in there and the employees help them to order, in english. You'd also see that lots of immigrants are coming in there.
Quote:
And if you're going to start using FedEx to support some redneck with a cheesesteak stand, I suggest finding another hobby.
A redneck? I'm glad that you rally against alleged prejudice with your own version of prejudice.
-------------------- Unions are the bastions of the mediocre. - luvdemshrooms
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xDuckYouSuckerx
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Re: Order in English [Re: Basilides]
#5750044 - 06/14/06 03:34 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Basilides said: Some people are simply unable to learn a language outside what they grew up with. There are learning disabilities that are often implicated specifically with learning new languages. I grew up in a bilingual household and I'm unable to grok anything besides English.
If it's so hard to learn another language, how is the clerk supposed to understand every language in the world? Setting a standard of English, in a restaurant in America, with all employees that speak English, seems fair to me. You should invent your own language and demand that everyone else speak it.
-------------------- Unions are the bastions of the mediocre. - luvdemshrooms
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quillini
one meanmotorscooter


Registered: 04/18/06
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Quote:
Do you agree with the Philadelphia city government's actions in this matter? If so, why? If not, why not?
How is this different from the original question?
This thread is not really about some restaurant in Philly; it's really about "political correctness", isn't it? So that's why I'm going to pick at that theme like a scab.
RandalFlagg, your definition of "political correctness" sounds like run-of-the-mill leftism to me; I'm not seeing the difference. Your comparisons to jingoism and religious fanaticism are interesting, as far as things nobody freely admits to. But I would say that, ideologically, people do ultimately own up to being religious fanatics or jingoists; they just don't use those words. There are plenty of religious fanatics where I live, and while they don't refer to themselves as "fanatics", they'll tell you in a minute that they are fundamentalists, that the Bible is the unquestionable word of God, etc. That's a fanatic if you ask me; if you ask them, they are fundamentalist.
Anybody that drives around with "nuke em all n let ala sort em out" is, to me, a jingoist. But to them, they are a patriot. Different names for the same thing.
So is it the case that someone may call themselves "progressive", while to someone else they are "politically correct"? Maybe, but not necessarily. "Politically correct" is not used as a label so much as a judgement. If someone can be politically correct, that means someone else who holds a differing opinion is politically incorrect. Correct, incorrect, in relation to what? To leftism? If that's the case, why is there not a rightist counterpart? And why do I hear very few leftists/liberals complaining about it? It seems as though liberals speak their minds and don't give a damn what conservatives think, while conservatives are unable to do the same. Conservatives have talk radio, several synidicated columnists, a cable news network, and countless blogs through which to express themselves, yet they still whine about how everyone is politically correct.
If political correctness equates to liberalism/leftism, then clearly not everyone is that way, as tends to be evidenced on election day. So what is all the fuss about?
Perhaps conservatives should take a page from the liberal playbook and stop giving so much of a damn what people think; just speak your mind and be yourself, without crying about whenever people disagree with you. Some opinions are better thought out than others, but the question of "correct" and "incorrect" really doesn't enter into it.
-------------------- No; truth, being alive, was not halfway between anything. It was only to be found by continuous excursions into either realm, and though proportion is the final secret, to espouse it at the outset is to insure sterility. Only connect...
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Phred
Fred's son


Registered: 10/18/00
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Re: Order in English [Re: quillini]
#5750402 - 06/14/06 05:55 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
How is this different from the original question?
Because it puts the focus squarely where it belongs -- on government action. In this specific case, on ludicrous harrassment of people who have done nothing wrong.
Quote:
This thread is not really about some restaurant in Philly; it's really about "political correctness", isn't it?
In actuality, it is about neither a restaurant nor about "political correctness" but about the tendency of government -- at all levels -- to stick its nose in where it has no business, to make mountains out of molehills, to harass (and cause extra expense for -- think legal bills) hard working legitimate businessmen who have not only broken no laws but have in fact done nothing wrong at all.
The focus should not be on the business owner at all but on the meddlesome and destructive bureaucrats with no sense of proportion. Or any sense at all, it would appear.
Phred
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Basilides
Servent ofWisdom


Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 7,059
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Quote:
xDuckYouSuckerx said:
Quote:
Basilides said: Obviously non-white immigrants aren't going to have a pretentious attitude about speaking the English language.
If you ran a business and someone came in speaking Farsi, what would you do? Immediately call a translator, at your expense? Learn their language, at your expense? Hardly any sane person would do that. They'd make it clear that they spoke one language and if you didn't speak it, well, communication as a whole is impossible.
Quote:
Anywho.. This restaurant owner is an asshole, but it's his private business so he can run it anyway he sees fit. He might even end up taking the sign down eventually because I doubt Latinos and other immigrants are going to frequent that establishment often. I know I wouldn't.
Actually, if you'd have read the initial story, you'd see that non-english speaking people DO come in there and the employees help them to order, in english. You'd also see that lots of immigrants are coming in there.
Quote:
And if you're going to start using FedEx to support some redneck with a cheesesteak stand, I suggest finding another hobby.
A redneck? I'm glad that you rally against alleged prejudice with your own version of prejudice.
Sorry, redneck hating isn't a prejudice. It's natural order
--------------------
    "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
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xDuckYouSuckerx
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Re: Order in English [Re: Basilides]
#5750429 - 06/14/06 06:09 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Brilliant fucking answer, brainchild.
-------------------- Unions are the bastions of the mediocre. - luvdemshrooms
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Basilides
Servent ofWisdom


Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 7,059
Loc: Crown and Heart
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Mother always told me I was smart
--------------------
    "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
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Re: Order in English [Re: Phred]
#5750739 - 06/14/06 07:20 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Phred said: From the way this thread is going off on tangents, I guess I must have phrased my original question too broadly.
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Vvellum
Stranger

Registered: 05/24/04
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Re: Order in English [Re: Phred]
#5750763 - 06/14/06 07:24 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Do you agree with the Philadelphia city government's actions in this matter? If so, why? If not, why not?
I disagree with the city. it is not the place of the government to dictate how such a business is run. however, if it were a government/tax-funded enterprise, then I would have a problem with it.
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?



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Re: Order in English [Re: Vvellum]
#5752309 - 06/15/06 03:28 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
bi0 said:
Quote:
Do you agree with the Philadelphia city government's actions in this matter? If so, why? If not, why not?
I disagree with the city. it is not the place of the government to dictate how such a business is run. however, if it were a government/tax-funded enterprise, then I would have a problem with it.
Actually, when the governmentdcoddles those who don't speak english, it's far worse. No taxpayer money should be spent on such foolishness. Learn english or stay the fuck home.
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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quillini
one meanmotorscooter


Registered: 04/18/06
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Re: Order in English [Re: Phred]
#5752317 - 06/15/06 03:40 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
In actuality, it is about neither a restaurant nor about "political correctness" but about the tendency of government -- at all levels -- to stick its nose in where it has no business, to make mountains out of molehills, to harass (and cause extra expense for -- think legal bills) hard working legitimate businessmen who have not only broken no laws but have in fact done nothing wrong at all.
What do you think about the Patriot Act then?
The people who say that gov't ought not to intervene with business owners are the same people who say the gov't has every right to crawl up your ass looking for "national security threats".
Hypocrisy?
-------------------- No; truth, being alive, was not halfway between anything. It was only to be found by continuous excursions into either realm, and though proportion is the final secret, to espouse it at the outset is to insure sterility. Only connect...
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xDuckYouSuckerx
xBannedx


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Quote:
luvdemshrooms said: Learn english or stay the fuck home.
Now THAT would be a great bumper sticker!
-------------------- Unions are the bastions of the mediocre. - luvdemshrooms
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero


Registered: 04/27/01
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It amazes me how immigrants today are demanding so much and get offended so easily. It wasn't too long ago that immigration officials were handing out new surnames along with entry into the new country. Can you imagine the uproar today if INS tried to change immigrants names into something more American?
I have a sign up in my store that says "I reserve the right to refuse service to anybody for any reason what-so-ever." I don't see how my sign is any different than his "Please speak English when ordering" sign. If anything, mine is a bit more rude. People need to get over their fragile little feelings. We have allowed the politicians to turn us into a bunch of lawsuit happy, spoiled children that scream bloody murder when we don't get our way. I guess it is easier to steal a babies lollipop when it is distracted by manufactured social issues.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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