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ultramarv
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Registered: 06/12/06
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Tripping without drugs (serious thread)
#5743066 - 06/12/06 06:54 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I saw a thread only a page back about tripping without drugs, but the entire point of it was to preach and it turned immediately into a four page flamefest. Although the thread was totally ruined from the beginning, tripping without drugs is actually a very interesting topic and I think with a reasonable discussion can be informative for many.
I'm no stranger to psychedelics. Though my experience probably pales in comparison to many here, I'm quite familiar with the use of several of the more well known entheogenic compounds. My interest in tripping without drugs is not due to any judgment of the drug culture or criticisms of the drugs themselves, but more due to their availability (or lack thereof, usually) and my interest in the subject (I'm a neuroscience major).
In the Psychedelic Review archives at maps.org, one published paper ( http://www.maps.org/w3pb/new/1962/1962_fogel_2047_1.pdf ) indicates that the LSD experience is reproducible under hypnosis. As many here are no doubt familiar, hypnosis is nothing more than a placebo. It is a mechanism by which the person doing the hypnotizing can allow the person to exert control over aspects of their nervous system that are normally left for the realm of the subconscious. If a subject can indeed go into "LSD mode" after hypnosis, it makes total sense to me that this ability can be harnessed by experienced meditators, believing self-hypnosis types, and even just the exceptionally rare individual with uncanny control of their subconscious.
I have serious doubts that anyone can have a full blown psychedelic experience without having experienced the entheogens themselves, but it seems perfectly plausible to me that some may be able to reproduce the altered states of those experiences using only their minds. I've actually entered psychedelic states in dreams, but never without drugs in real life, though I haven't tried either. It seems to be worth exploring though, especially if compounds of interest (eg mescaline) may be even more scarce in the future.
Any thoughts?
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lsdandfrisbee
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Registered: 11/09/05
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Re: Tripping without drugs (serious thread) [Re: ultramarv]
#5743091 - 06/12/06 07:00 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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First post welcome!
My thoughts are I have no interest in trying these stated methods. Sorry.
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YESSUP
In The Thick Of It


Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 2,774
Loc: SE Tex
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Re: Tripping without drugs (serious thread) [Re: ultramarv]
#5743113 - 06/12/06 07:04 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Tripping without drugs is called Lucid Dreaming and Meditation. And I would not consider it tripping it would be more like exploring!
-------------------- Gut Feeling leads to anxiety, Anxiety leads to fear, Fear leads to anger,And anger leads to regret.
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kaniz
That one, overthere.


Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 4,166
Loc: Ontario
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Re: Tripping without drugs (serious thread) [Re: lsdandfrisbee]
#5743135 - 06/12/06 07:08 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I think it is fully possible to have psychedelic experiences without the need/use for drugs. From meditation, to sweat lodges, to the sun dance, to extreme fasting, etc.
Hell, I've had mini-trips while being VERY sick before -- when I was young, I remeber seeing pink elephants flying out from a TV while having a fever of 103. I also recall in my teens being deathly sick and being convinced that goblins were trying to steal my socks.
Another time (again, sick) - was laying in bed watching Carnival, it was an episode where one of the characters get a flashback to being in a war. I then started to feel very sick and got up to run to the bathroom - as I start running to the bathroom, my reality sort of blends into/turns into what I was watching and very much had the sense of running through a war zone -- I ended up not making it to the bathroom and threw up all over the hallway.
You can also start hallucinating with enough sleep depravation -- tweakers who have been up for days on end will often start hallucinating, however if you can manage to force yourself to be awake for that long without the use for drugs, you can also start to enter a bit of a 'psychedelic state' also.
Although, I do think that there is a line between a Psychedelic experience, and a state of delirium -- and a few of my times of 'tripping without drugs' were probably more a state of delirum than a psychedelic expierence. still interesting however.
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Serenity
Mary+Jane=LOVE

Registered: 02/18/06
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Re: Tripping without drugs (serious thread) [Re: YESSUP]
#5743150 - 06/12/06 07:11 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Ive read about a group of people that concentrated on the thought that they were high and acted as if they felt that way for long enough that their mind would recreate the experience of being high (MJ I beleive) but it also stated it was never the same as what the actual drug gave them. If a trip is what you want, the drug is what you need.
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Mike_yy


Registered: 10/28/05
Posts: 7,253
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Re: Tripping without drugs (serious thread) [Re: Serenity]
#5743302 - 06/12/06 07:41 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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ive never been hypnotised so i don't know first had how strong its effects might be.
If what we see on TV is true, then people are made to hallucinate all the time, seeing whatever they have been told to see. If someone has had a psychedelic experience in their past, then maybe a hypnotist could make them believe they are tripping again.
If there was a book on it i'd read it.
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ThreePieceSuit
disastrophe


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Re: Tripping without drugs (serious thread) [Re: Mike_yy]
#5743674 - 06/12/06 08:53 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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As Kaniz mentioned, states of delirium are common when sick, especially fevers. The facts is, this isn't really intentional. How it happens I'm not entirely sure, but I do know that the effects are quite similar to those caused by states of extreme stress or exhaustion.
As for intentional "tripping," I believe certain aspects are indeed very possible. Before my first trip, through intense concentration, I was able to watch my ceiling wave and ripple, and to feel that my bed was falling downward in a spiral. It's not something that I could do at any time, I was intensely relaxed and focused, and the rainfall outside made a perfect atmosphere.
The effects are not comparable to actually taking. There's aspects which I believe can only be accessed by taking entheogens. Some examples of effects that I believe are impossible to recreate are:
The feeling of complete understanding Intense hallucinations Floating feeling "Returning Home" feeling Complete understanding of someone else Total appreciation for nature
I guess it still depends on the person, their meditative ability, and their willingness to try, but those are my ideas, so do with them what you will.
Good thread.
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I'm so lucrative, even my birthday suit is in three pieces.
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Hix
Animal Mother


Registered: 02/20/06
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Re: Tripping without drugs (serious thread) [Re: ThreePieceSuit]
#5743766 - 06/12/06 09:17 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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After and during a sexual experience, when I look aroung in a dark room these colors start meshing together and flowing into this whole, and then spiralling and shit. I don't know if this is related to the NN-DMT that is from your pineal gland during sex or not. Kinda weird, over the years it's gotten more and more crazy. I think it's just all in my head, because there's no explanation i can think of for it, but it makes a damn hefty visual aide for some midnight pink floyd. It's crazy, and fuckin sweet 2 for 1: trip balls and get your rocks off!!! HAHA SWEET!
ps.- sorry if this post sucks but it feels pretty relatable to the topic with a few hits working in the system. Lookin back in retrospect, our balls take a lot of shit, we trip balls, we get our rocks off, we go balls to the wall, give our balls a break man.
Edited by Hix (06/12/06 09:21 PM)
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thehandtruck
Just ahead of me

Registered: 06/03/06
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Re: Tripping without drugs (serious thread) [Re: Hix]
#5744388 - 06/12/06 11:29 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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While I am very for all of this "tripping without drugs" stuff and am getting very interested in the subject of meditation and all that fun stuff, I think you be missing the physical aspect of drugs like LSD. LSD works by blocking the neurotransmitter 5hydroxytryptamine (5-HT, seratonin). Seratonin regulates mood/sleep/apetite/and other things. Seratonin is then backfired and in a way the visual cortex is affected. It's known that the visual cortex does not recieve any extra activity while under the influence of psychadelics. Yet, visuals exist. Still something that isn't concrete due to lack of evidence.
Anyway. What I'm saying is that LSD, the molecule, physically blocks seratonin by fitting into the receptor site. There is a physical chemical that fits in there, taking the place of seratonin. -A molecule-. -Physically.-
Now I'm not saying that meditation and all that can have a profound effect on neurochemistry. But there is nothing that physically attachs to the place where seratonin should be.
But that isn't to say hypnosis can't remind somebody what a trip is like. And in that respect they may be able to "trip". But I doubt it will be same thing. Sometimes I can "remember" what it's like to have the bathroom mat breath, and it does, slightly. But it sure as hell doesn't breathe like it does when I trip.
Edited by thehandtruck (06/12/06 11:32 PM)
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EquilibriuM
dream stalker

Registered: 07/17/05
Posts: 2,323
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Re: Tripping without drugs (serious thread) [Re: ultramarv]
#5744462 - 06/12/06 11:50 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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tripping is a movement of the assemblage point... as pointed out, sickness can be/can cause a movement of the assemblage point as well. As does dreaming (dreaming is actually a loosening of it while individual dreams are positions of it.)... Mental illness, Meditation...
The art of dreaming is the practice of stalking the assemblage point into and out of specific positions.
I think you should seriously look into out of body experience and lucid dreaming.
-------------------- HELP!!!!!!!!!
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ultramarv
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Re: Tripping without drugs (serious thread) [Re: thehandtruck]
#5744490 - 06/12/06 11:55 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Err... LSD is not a serotonin antagonist. If it did block serotonin from release into the synaptic cleft, serotonin would not be "backfired." AFAIK, neurotransmitters are not involved in retrograde axoplasmic transport. Action potentials would cease, not be spread about the brain. LSD, based on its structure, is much more likely a serotonin agonist, which mimics serotonin (and it also likely has effects on several other NT systems).
Your point about binding a receptor under a drug compared to not when using the mind is valid, but consider this. Many people have been hypnotized to feel no pain under surgery, even without anaesthesia. Are these inviduals' endogenous opoids binding their neural receptors to act like morphine would, or is it possible that these people are simply shutting off the pathway through which these signals normally travel? Either way, it's food for thought (I think both can happen).
Hypnosis, fat placebo that it is, is definitely a useful model for understanding the brain when its believers can demonstrate such profound effects.:)
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ultramarv
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Re: Tripping without drugs (serious thread) [Re: ultramarv]
#5744514 - 06/13/06 12:00 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Cool responses. I've been in states of delerium when sick with the flu too; not fun at all.
Lucid dreaming is an interesting topic. I learned a lot about it some five years ago, and have lucid dreams about once a month. Strangely, when I have lucid dreams I often wake up inside of another dream, become lucid again, and repeat the process three or four times. I mentally refer to those sequences as "layered dreams."
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EquilibriuM
dream stalker

Registered: 07/17/05
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Re: Tripping without drugs (serious thread) [Re: ultramarv]
#5744597 - 06/13/06 12:32 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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yeah, I used to think that waking up from one dream into another was "crazy"
NOT ANYMORE.
Not anymore...
-------------------- HELP!!!!!!!!!
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thehandtruck
Just ahead of me

Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 163
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Re: Tripping without drugs (serious thread) [Re: ultramarv]
#5744705 - 06/13/06 01:13 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
ultramarv said: Err... LSD is not a serotonin antagonist. If it did block serotonin from release into the synaptic cleft, serotonin would not be "backfired." AFAIK, neurotransmitters are not involved in retrograde axoplasmic transport. Action potentials would cease, not be spread about the brain. LSD, based on its structure, is much more likely a serotonin agonist, which mimics serotonin (and it also likely has effects on several other NT systems).
Your point about binding a receptor under a drug compared to not when using the mind is valid, but consider this. Many people have been hypnotized to feel no pain under surgery, even without anaesthesia. Are these inviduals' endogenous opoids binding their neural receptors to act like morphine would, or is it possible that these people are simply shutting off the pathway through which these signals normally travel? Either way, it's food for thought (I think both can happen).
Hypnosis, fat placebo that it is, is definitely a useful model for understanding the brain when its believers can demonstrate such profound effects.:)
You've said too much to argue with. I was going to, but all I was doing was reading Pikhal, erowid, and wikipedia. Do the same.
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ultramarv
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Re: Tripping without drugs (serious thread) [Re: thehandtruck]
#5744751 - 06/13/06 01:42 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
thehandtruck said:
Quote:
ultramarv said: Err... LSD is not a serotonin antagonist. If it did block serotonin from release into the synaptic cleft, serotonin would not be "backfired." AFAIK, neurotransmitters are not involved in retrograde axoplasmic transport. Action potentials would cease, not be spread about the brain. LSD, based on its structure, is much more likely a serotonin agonist, which mimics serotonin (and it also likely has effects on several other NT systems).
Your point about binding a receptor under a drug compared to not when using the mind is valid, but consider this. Many people have been hypnotized to feel no pain under surgery, even without anaesthesia. Are these inviduals' endogenous opoids binding their neural receptors to act like morphine would, or is it possible that these people are simply shutting off the pathway through which these signals normally travel? Either way, it's food for thought (I think both can happen).
Hypnosis, fat placebo that it is, is definitely a useful model for understanding the brain when its believers can demonstrate such profound effects.:)
You've said too much to argue with. I was going to, but all I was doing was reading Pikhal, erowid, and wikipedia. Do the same.
Tikhal (not Pikhal) details the synthesis, irrelevant here. Erowid and Wiki, as well as all my neuro textbooks, list LSD as a serotonin agonist, not antagonist, the opposite of your original post. Keep on reading! PM me if you have any questions.
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thehandtruck
Just ahead of me

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Re: Tripping without drugs (serious thread) [Re: ultramarv]
#5745543 - 06/13/06 12:10 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Yeah I meant Tikhal. Anyway forget the word backfired. LSD stops seratonin from binding to the receptors. Is that wrong?
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Mike_yy


Registered: 10/28/05
Posts: 7,253
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Re: Tripping without drugs (serious thread) [Re: thehandtruck]
#5745634 - 06/13/06 12:46 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Deepman posted this in the pub the other day. Use the bottom right mouse to find out about LSD.
http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/units/addiction/drugs/mouse.cfm
I think it replaces serotonin. So i guess thats the same as it blocking it, in a way.
Edited by Mike_yy (06/13/06 03:42 PM)
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ultramarv
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Re: Tripping without drugs (serious thread) [Re: Mike_yy]
#5746071 - 06/13/06 03:01 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Yeah it's an agonist, which means essentially that it binds in place of (mimics) serotonin, which does technically block serotonin from binding when that happens, but serotonin wasn't necessarily going to bind anyway, and it only affects certain subtypes of serotonin receptors. Serotonin is not just sitting in the synaptic cleft waiting to bind; it's contained in vessicles that are not released without proper prior signalling.
In binding the receptors, LSD's effects are not elicited by blocking serotonin, but rather by acting as serotonin or other neurotransmitters in these instances. If LSD worked by blocking the serotonin receptors (i.e. an antagonist), you'd probably just feel like shit.
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lakeglim
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Re: Tripping without drugs (serious thread) [Re: ultramarv]
#5750359 - 06/14/06 05:38 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I've read you can trip if you drink massive amounts of water. You would probably need to drink about 20 gallons. It would alter your PH enought that you would go on a wild trip. Not sure how safe it is though.
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ultramarv
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Re: Tripping without drugs (serious thread) [Re: lakeglim]
#5750441 - 06/14/06 06:11 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Lol, that would definitely cause one; it's extremely dangerous (even deadly).
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Jon
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Re: Tripping without drugs (serious thread) [Re: ultramarv]
#5750814 - 06/14/06 07:35 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Look into the biology of human starvation. Both physical and mental aspects.
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Nexus555
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Re: Tripping without drugs (serious thread) [Re: ThreePieceSuit]
#5751151 - 06/14/06 08:52 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
ThreePieceSuit said: The effects are not comparable to actually taking. There's aspects which I believe can only be accessed by taking entheogens. Some examples of effects that I believe are impossible to recreate are:
The feeling of complete understanding Intense hallucinations Floating feeling "Returning Home" feeling Complete understanding of someone else Total appreciation for nature
Not trying to bash you, but I've experience all of the above for the exception of Intense Hallucinations without the use of any drug. And I do have some of these feelings somewhat frequenctly, with the exception of floating. Sometimes I'll go outside (completely sober), smoke a cigarette by myself and just listen to the crickets, the wind blowing, the trees swaying and a total feeling of enlightenment. Sometimes when I feel like this, it seems my vision is even somewhat illuminated. You can have a lot of what you listed soberly without the use of drugs. It all depends on the mood your in and the environment. Now as for a normal day, I doubt it, but if you just sit back, and let the present take full control of you and naturally block out all of your thoughts, judgements and analysing, this is very possible.
And as for the "intense hallucinations" soberly, a friend of mind and I can somewhat hallucinate if we concentrate. Try staring at one object (I do this a lot high and works 1000 times more, but sober it'll work as well) for at least 1-2 minutes. Do not take your eye off of it, do not stare directly at the object and try not to analyise what you are seeing. If you do this correctly, the object being stared at will usually change shapes or blend in with other stuff. As far as intense hallucinations, I think it is nearly impossible to do soberly.
Keep in mind I've done all of this and never have tripped. Thanks
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Iamthewalrus
every evening Idied and everynight I wasreborn


Registered: 03/24/04
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Re: Tripping without drugs (serious thread) [Re: Nexus555]
#5751477 - 06/14/06 10:03 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I think the mind is capable of recreating a trip on its own...we have a powerful cpu inside our skulls
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MOTH
Wild Woman


Registered: 06/06/03
Posts: 23,431
Loc: In the jungle
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Re: Tripping without drugs (serious thread) [Re: Iamthewalrus]
#5751566 - 06/14/06 10:18 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I feel as though we're experiencing a giant trip RIGHT NOW...life!!
All the visuals...wow, the world is both larger and smaller then you would think.
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Iamthewalrus
every evening Idied and everynight I wasreborn


Registered: 03/24/04
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Re: Tripping without drugs (serious thread) [Re: MOTH]
#5751637 - 06/14/06 10:33 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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very tru
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Entropymancer

Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 10,207
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Re: Tripping without drugs (serious thread) [Re: Nexus555]
#5753196 - 06/15/06 11:15 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Nexus555 said:
Quote:
ThreePieceSuit said: The effects are not comparable to actually taking. There's aspects which I believe can only be accessed by taking entheogens. Some examples of effects that I believe are impossible to recreate are:
The feeling of complete understanding Intense hallucinations Floating feeling "Returning Home" feeling Complete understanding of someone else Total appreciation for nature
Not trying to bash you, but I've experience all of the above for the exception of Intense Hallucinations without the use of any drug. And I do have some of these feelings somewhat frequenctly, with the exception of floating. Sometimes I'll go outside (completely sober), smoke a cigarette by myself and just listen to the crickets, the wind blowing, the trees swaying and a total feeling of enlightenment. Sometimes when I feel like this, it seems my vision is even somewhat illuminated. You can have a lot of what you listed soberly without the use of drugs. It all depends on the mood your in and the environment. Now as for a normal day, I doubt it, but if you just sit back, and let the present take full control of you and naturally block out all of your thoughts, judgements and analysing, this is very possible.
And as for the "intense hallucinations" soberly, a friend of mind and I can somewhat hallucinate if we concentrate. Try staring at one object (I do this a lot high and works 1000 times more, but sober it'll work as well) for at least 1-2 minutes. Do not take your eye off of it, do not stare directly at the object and try not to analyise what you are seeing. If you do this correctly, the object being stared at will usually change shapes or blend in with other stuff. As far as intense hallucinations, I think it is nearly impossible to do soberly.
Keep in mind I've done all of this and never have tripped. Thanks
If you think you've experienced all of the feelings that he's talking about without ever having tripped, I'd be willing to bet that you're talking about a completely different sort of experience, lacking the psyche-shaking magnitude of a psychedelic experience.
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