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OfflineAzen
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Salvia induced permanent effects?
    #5741202 - 06/12/06 10:22 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I smoked some 6X Salvia 3 days ago along with drinking some beer to relax me to the state of smoking. I took a very large hit and was completely gone for about 30 minutes. I had a sitter and she said I was mumbling the whole time some gibberish. After waking up 2 days ago (the next day after smoking) I noticed bothersome visual disturbances and shrugged it off. But as the day went on and until right now I'm experiencing a depersonalization/derealization and almost fright to go into dark places. My head feels like its being crushed by my skull constantly and I really have to struggle to even talk. When I do talk, I sound raspy and distant to people and have had to repeat myself several times because of mumbling.

My first day back at work yesterday a few people came up to me and told me I looked and acted like I was in a different world. I've been struggling with this and have also had constant panic and keep seeing things move in my peripheral vision ontop of the constant visual distortions. The visual distortions can also be pretty intense when trying to go to sleep and I turn the light on immediately when I go into dark rooms.

The visuals have a universal design that makes me look away. They almost feel as they have a presence. I enjoyed the design like experiences when under salvia's influence but don't want them for the rest of my life or even months. It's quite disturbing. I won't touch it again, I couldn't imagine it being worse.

I'd really appreciate any input or help anyone can give me. I hope I didn't do anything permanent.

Azen


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OfflineEquilibriuM
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Re: Salvia induced permanent effects? [Re: Azen]
    #5741215 - 06/12/06 10:26 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

you didn't say your mindset going into the experience? why did you smoke salvia? what do you remember from the experience? details man. this stuff is important. its not just a toy.


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OfflineAzen
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Re: Salvia induced permanent effects? [Re: EquilibriuM]
    #5741255 - 06/12/06 10:40 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Well I guess my mindset wasn't that great. I'm stressing over a impending separation from my wife but that wasn't why I did Salvia. I don't remember much from the experience (probably alcohol) but I do remember being frightened by an evil presence and also elated from a good presence. I felt many "live" plants growing at a quick speed and wrapping around my body.

Also, I've been only able to eat one small meal a day (maybe 200 calories a day) after the experience and have horrible insomnia. Two hours a day the first day and only 3 hours yesterday.

Azen


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Offlinetoday mylove
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Re: Salvia induced permanent effects? [Re: Azen]
    #5741355 - 06/12/06 11:20 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

That's not too much sleep. And not enough food. Restore your body's reserves and try not to focus on the visuals as hard as that may sound. You have benzos or anything? I don't know, sounds like you're in need of a nice long recouperation session... Sorry if this post isn't much help, but take care because I care.

Keep us updated!


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InvisibleHank, FTW
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Re: Salvia induced permanent effects? [Re: today mylove]
    #5741424 - 06/12/06 11:38 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

If you can get a couple nights good sleep, and eat some healthy food, and enough of it, I think you will be feeling back to normal. Sleep deprevation produces similar effects to those you are describing. I have no experience with Salvia tho, but I will be trying it soon.


--------------------
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InvisibleMezcal
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Re: Salvia induced permanent effects? [Re: Azen]
    #5741473 - 06/12/06 11:49 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Azen said:
Well I guess my mindset wasn't that great. I'm stressing over a impending separation from my wife but that wasn't why I did Salvia. I don't remember much from the experience (probably alcohol) but I do remember being frightened by an evil presence and also elated from a good presence. I felt many "live" plants growing at a quick speed and wrapping around my body.

Also, I've been only able to eat one small meal a day (maybe 200 calories a day) after the experience and have horrible insomnia. Two hours a day the first day and only 3 hours yesterday.

Azen




While the salvia experience sounds intense, I think that the sustained effects you are noticing are manifesting more out of your stresses (marriage situation, sleep situation, food situation) than the drug experience. Get some rest, try some relaxation techniques (seriously, search the net for some and give them a shot, they are really good for reducing stress and anxiety) and make sure to eat a good, healthy diet.

If you don't notice any improvement in the next coming days, consider talking to a therapist about your life situation... I've found that individual therapy can literally turn a life around- just from a few hours of talking with an understanding, caring person.

Also, remember that there are people who care about you and want to see you happy (and get better!). Talk to these people.

If you want to talk privately, send a PM. I'll be happy to converse 1 on 1 as well.

Hope you feel better!


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OfflineClammyJoe
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Re: Salvia induced permanent effects? [Re: Hank, FTW]
    #5741482 - 06/12/06 11:51 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

What's your drug history? What kind of psychedelics do you take, and how often?


Edited by TheMadConductor (06/12/06 11:51 AM)


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OfflineCepheus
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Re: Salvia induced permanent effects? [Re: ClammyJoe]
    #5741526 - 06/12/06 12:03 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Its you doing this to yourself.

Chill the fuck out. Whack on your favourite music. Open the windows to a  lovely summers evening smoke a few bowls and chill with your friends. The salvia has only intensified what you were already feeling, you just need a good chillout, and time to discuss general issues. Get some bud. Get some beer. Call your mates round and have a casual smoke & drink and chillout.

Guarenteed you'll feel 100% better or your money back. :grin:


--------------------
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Invisibletruekimbo2
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Re: Salvia induced permanent effects? [Re: Cepheus]
    #5741620 - 06/12/06 12:32 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

azen i get the same thing. i know its kind of scarey but if you ignore it, it should go mostly away within a week. redgreenvines mentioned something similar so there are a couple poeple that get like that.

for me what happens is time gets super fast and my visual field gets super clear and at the same time starts cycling which patterns i'm paying attention to at high speed (don't know how better to put it, feels like i'm seeing how my brain puts together all the mental concepts coming from my visual field), but i kind of lose my ability to think. then the depersonalization kicks in and de-realization kind of starts to fade in.

i would say if you want to get back to normal quicker do not use any substances, even weed and alchohol.

from whats happened to me it seems the only danger is of panicing. also for me not trying to focus on anything helps, just doing stuff while pretending i am normal works while focusing on my breath or body just makes it worse. i'm sure its a somewhat individual reaction. anyways, yeah just no that those effects appear to be semi-normal, and that it does go away.


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OfflineAzen
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Re: Salvia induced permanent effects? [Re: today mylove]
    #5741637 - 06/12/06 12:40 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

todaymylove

I've been forcing myself to eat and drink the past hour so I'm coming out of that. The sleeping pills I took are doing nothing. Salvia slaps me again and says "wake up."

I went and did some searching as well and came upon this site http://hppdonline.com/index.php I read a couple of stories like mine with most people coming out of it within days or sometimes months. Sadly, I read a few that have had it for years. There's also dp and dr information.

I'm going to focus on eating healthy, exercising, going to the doctor tomorrow.

Oh yeah, I'm quitting everything including alcohol. This part is a no brainer, I never want to feel like this again. I'll still be an avid shroomery member though.

Azen


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Invisibletruekimbo2
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Re: Salvia induced permanent effects? [Re: truekimbo2]
    #5741639 - 06/12/06 12:41 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

hey i feel for you so i'm going to add some more. i don't know what kind of sleeping habits you have but if you get that disturbing phase where the disturbances are keeping you from sleeping make sure that you're REALLY tired before you go to bed. doing dumb shit like watching TV till your exahuasted works. although staring at computer screens and tv screens can sometimes increase the visual disturbances for me. and if you're having trouble talking and thats making you worried what works for me is taking it kind of slow, being sure of what you want to say and saying it overly loud and clear.

again it goes away, just i had never heard of such outlandish duration till it happened to me so it bugged me out too at first.


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OfflineAzen
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Re: Salvia induced permanent effects? [Re: Mezcal]
    #5741650 - 06/12/06 12:43 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Yeah snyder, I think stress in my life caused it but it's definitely. It's like I'm a small trip constantly.


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OfflineAzen
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Re: Salvia induced permanent effects? [Re: ClammyJoe]
    #5741661 - 06/12/06 12:45 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I did a lot of LSD back over 10 years ago. I never experienced anything like this from that. The only things I have done recently is drink, done a couple doses of shrooms spaced over about 6 months each, the last one being a few months ago. Nothing like this from mushrooms either.


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OfflineAzen
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Re: Salvia induced permanent effects? [Re: truekimbo2]
    #5741683 - 06/12/06 12:51 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Thanks for the reply truekimbo (now I know I'm not alone) and thanks everyone for giving tips on how to cope. Truekimbo, did your experience have the same intensity over that time? I don't feel the intensity going away at all. Oh yeah, it's the worst right when I wake up. I dozed for about 5 mins a couple times and that seemed to be the worst, felt like I was just coming out of the trip.

Azen


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OfflineClammyJoe
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Re: Salvia induced permanent effects? [Re: Azen]
    #5741699 - 06/12/06 12:54 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

You'll be ok if you just relax, I thought I had the same problem after my last mushroom trip. It turned out to be just more of an anxiety deal. I got over it within a couple weeks of just chillin.


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Invisibletruekimbo2
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Re: Salvia induced permanent effects? [Re: ClammyJoe]
    #5741717 - 06/12/06 12:57 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

for me (i actually kept smoking salvia trying to figure out if the salvia was defintely causing this) it was strongest two days after, toned down on the third day and then would sporadically appear about once or twice a day for the next couple.


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OfflineCosmicFunGuy
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Re: Salvia induced permanent effects? [Re: truekimbo2]
    #5741887 - 06/12/06 01:44 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

If you have access to fresh herbs make a tea using 2 large basil leaves 2 tbsp of fresh feverfew leaves and 4 med. peppermint leaves. also I have used this tea adding about a bit of coarsely broken reishi mushroom (fresh or dried is fine, fresh is better, hard to get if you don't grow though, at least where i live) to it to help aid in sleep and calm anxiety and your nervous system in a far more natural way than pills. It is completely safe and nontoxic. Also red clover could be added (might affect taste in bad way i have not tried it, there will be not negative chemical reactions I AM POSITIVE OF THAT) It's a natural method of cleansing your body of toxins.

I'm sorry if you unfortunately are not able to access these things but even dried form your local health food store would do some good If you want to make a whole pot or pitcher of this tea (for iced) multiply ingredients times 4. I'm not an expert on your brain and I certainly know little about you but I'd say you've got a lot of things affecting your stress level some are mental blocks caused by lack of sleep or food others more chemical like you just need to detox (not drug rehab just your body builds up negative chemicals over time). My tea will help aid in both.

Also a lot of places (health stores almost for sure) sell a detox tea (in teabags) to help cleanse your body. Anybody who takes any sort of prescribed medicine or unnatural chemical should detox at least every other week. Everyone else at least once every 3 months. There are definitely methods other than tea its just most efficient for myself.


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♫ ♪ In the garden of many fields, there is no me or you. There is no right or wrong. There is no up or down. There is no black or white. Everyone is the plow man. Everyone is the seed. Everyone harvests and everyone yields. In the garden of many fields, everyone is one with one love and one love is one with everyone. ♪ ♫
lyrics from: Transglobal Underground - Eyeway Souljah (from Psychic Karaoke)


Edited by tickettothemoon (06/12/06 01:45 PM)


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OfflineAzen
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Re: Salvia induced permanent effects? [Re: CosmicFunGuy]
    #5743152 - 06/12/06 07:11 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I'll try that detox method ticket, thanks. I actually got some sleep today (6 hrs maybe) and as soon as I woke up it was bad again. But over the next 15 mins or so the mindfuck losing it feeling started to fade and the visuals started to fade as well. I still feel it but not as nearly intense. Hopefully this will last. I've been force-feeding myself and drinking as much liquids as possible. I'm in a good mood and just finishing up some detox tea. My main test will be at work tonight. We have lots of things with patterns there. Those are the worst. I'll keep everyone posted.

Azen


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OfflineCosmicFunGuy
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Re: Salvia induced permanent effects? [Re: Azen]
    #5745273 - 06/13/06 10:09 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

yes let me know if it helps. Just remember the most important ingredient in any remedy is belief. Even tylenol won't work unless you believe it will 80 % of pain, suffering, and uncomfortability is in the head. So if you believe something will work even if its completely random and has no active chemicals to help you, it will help make you feel better. Detox tea and my homemade tea that i described do however contain active ingredients for battling that other 20%.


--------------------


♫ ♪ In the garden of many fields, there is no me or you. There is no right or wrong. There is no up or down. There is no black or white. Everyone is the plow man. Everyone is the seed. Everyone harvests and everyone yields. In the garden of many fields, everyone is one with one love and one love is one with everyone. ♪ ♫
lyrics from: Transglobal Underground - Eyeway Souljah (from Psychic Karaoke)


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InvisibleMasFina
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Re: Salvia induced permanent effects? [Re: CosmicFunGuy]
    #5745434 - 06/13/06 11:22 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

All I gotta say is this does not make me wanna try salvia. Hope you feel better Azen.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Salvia induced permanent effects? [Re: MasFina]
    #5745659 - 06/13/06 12:57 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

sure it's related to the salvia, but it is not because of the salvia.
you'll be OK Azen; there are no permanent changes, except the gashes from where the teeth bit through.

separation is the big one in this picture.
it is huge.
you will be fine.
everyone's advice is great.
sleep (somehow) eat, and let things roll out how they must, now that the die have been cast. do all things in moderation.


--------------------
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OfflineAzen
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Re: Salvia induced permanent effects? [Re: Azen]
    #10063865 - 03/29/09 01:34 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

I've had a few people ask me about updating this thread, and I think now is a good time. 

Whatever site, research study, or just random people saying that certain drugs are harmless, I'm here to disagree.  Almost 3 years later and some symptoms have gone, but some are more pronounced.

My visual disturbances have gone away mostly, but I still see salvia patterns and especially when I get short naps (15-45 min).  When I wake up, I get that odd feeling again for about an hour or so.

I was very shaky, writing horribly, and had a new not so good outlook on life after my last salvia trip.  These things are permanent.  My ability to write has diminished significantly, and continues to get worse.  I can't make certain patterns when I write, like a circular pattern or change from circular to straight writing, and sometimes can't even write a straight line.  For example, when I'm writing the letter B, when switching from the circular part of the letter to straight part, I have a terrible time doing it.  My hand won't do what my brain is telling it to do, if that makes any sense. 

The shakiness hasn't gone away, and has actually gotten worse.  I work in a lab and need fine motor movements in my work, and I might have to quit my job because even holding one hand with the other when I do fine motor work is impossible sometimes. 

I was depressed before this whole situation, but I have a new completely new depressed outlook on life.  I've tried diet, exercise, all kinds of things but this hasn't changed.  I feel like I just exist and am waiting to grow old and die.  That's all I feel. I lost the ability to love.  I'm completely indifferent to everything and everyone, even close family members.  Even my 4 year old daughter, for fuck's sake. 

This is not coincidence, it happened right after my last salvia trip and salvia is the cause.  I've been to neurologists that tell me one after another that nothing is wrong.  MRI shows nothing.  *shrug*

Just a gentle reminder to those who wish to dive into the salvia universe!


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OfflineEthericOctopuss
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Re: Salvia induced permanent effects? [Re: Azen]
    #10065127 - 03/29/09 10:02 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Thanks for posting and updating your experience. Salvia is MOST DEFINITELY an entheogen to be used with caution and respect for. It may well be THE most powerful psychedelic, alongside DMT.

I hope you eventually feel better friend. Good vibes to you.


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OfflineMisterPlow
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Re: Salvia induced permanent effects? [Re: EthericOctopuss]
    #10065569 - 03/29/09 11:36 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Yes thank you for updating! Very imformative. May i suggest submitting this to erowid for a salvia trip report?

Also the inability to feel love/emotion sounds an awful lot like frontal lobe damage. Did you sustain whiplash or hit your head during your trip if you can remember? I know you said you had a sitter with you..nothing went terribly wrong in the "I have to get up and run around" department during the trip? Also have you sustained any head injuries before or car accidents?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Salvia induced permanent effects? [Re: Azen]
    #10065782 - 03/29/09 12:06 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

tremors are a class of events that are hard to attribute correctly to any one of a number of neurological biophysical and psychological agents.

you might want to try acupuncture if it persists.
sometimes a diagnosis will not crystallize but a systemic holistic treatment can work.


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OfflineNature Boy
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Re: Salvia induced permanent effects? [Re: Azen]
    #10065874 - 03/29/09 12:16 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

In Phikal, an episode just like this was written about by Ann Shulgin.  She (a skilled and trained psychologist) ultimately characterized this as a "spiritual crisis" IIRC.

I had a similar episode, oddly enough, after a deep and "successful" session of meditation - not at all drug-related.  In my case, the worst was over in 1 day, but had lingering effects for 3 - 4 days.  You absolutely >>WILL<< get better.

It sounds to me like you have several personal issues to resolve.  Why blame the salvia alone???  More likely than not it was all of them combined...resolve to resolve each one individually by priority (must eat healthy, fresh food and get some sleep!) and BINGO! you'll sense the improvement.

Good luck and much :peace:  :peace:  :peace:

N.B.


--------------------
All submitted posts under this user name are works of pure fiction or outright lies.  Any information, statement, or assertion contained therein should be considered pure unadulterated bullshit.  Note well:  Sorry, but I do not answer PM's unless you are a long-time trusted friend.  If you have a question, ask it in the appropriate thread.

                                                                               


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OfflineListening
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Re: Salvia induced permanent effects? [Re: Nature Boy]
    #10066316 - 03/29/09 01:08 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Nature Boy said:
I had a similar episode, oddly enough, after a deep and "successful" session of meditation - not at all drug-related.  In my case, the worst was over in 1 day, but had lingering effects for 3 - 4 days.  You absolutely >>WILL<< get better.





Did you read his post? This is now spanning 3 years. The ease with which some of you are willing to hand-wave away potential dangers of these drugs is mind boggling. Obviously we can't know for sure what caused this, but the connection with the Salvia points to a real possibility.


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OfflineFreedomForAll
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Re: Salvia induced permanent effects? [Re: Listening]
    #10066351 - 03/29/09 01:13 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Seems like hppd, which is very real but also very rare. I feel for you man, maybe one day it will cease to continue...


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OfflineNature Boy
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Re: Salvia induced permanent effects? [Re: Listening]
    #10067360 - 03/29/09 03:12 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Listening said:
Did you read his post? This is now spanning 3 years. The ease with which some of you are willing to hand-wave away potential dangers of these drugs is mind boggling. Obviously we can't know for sure what caused this, but the connection with the Salvia points to a real possibility.




Eeks.  I most certainly read the post, but completely missed the fact that the original was posted in 2006.  I was definitely NOT "hand-wave away potential dangers of these drugs" because I thought his symptoms were of only 3 days duration.  I responded in accordance with that understanding.

Frankly, I never anticipated someone would update a post 3 years after the fact.  I was mislead by that; please don't be angry with me for earnestly trying to help.

No good deed goes unpunished, as they say.

N.B.


--------------------
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OfflineMykologist
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Re: Salvia induced permanent effects? [Re: Nature Boy]
    #10067488 - 03/29/09 03:32 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Wow this is somewhat frightening! I must say that there is definitely something unique about you, Azen, that must have caused these effects, as my friends and I have smoked salvia many times and its effects are simply a memory at this point. Regardless, your story is a powerful example that psychedelics mean business, and we should all, BOTH THE EXPERIENCED AND NOVICE, be careful and respectful.
  A FOAF who took XTC two times in a weekend a few weeks ago. He says he feels no emotion or desire to do anything. He's getting better, but i'm worried about him. He's been "empty" for about two weeks. I deff. don't want to try e after his situation.
  I hope you feel back to normal in the future, Azen! That must be awful...
myk


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Where would you rather be?


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OfflineCMACD
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Re: Salvia induced permanent effects? [Re: MasFina]
    #10067507 - 03/29/09 03:35 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

One time I did salvia & shrooms in the same day, and felt exactly like you did. I won't lie, it lasted a while. I AM better, though. It takes time & strength. Force yourself to exercise every day even though you're depressed, it seems to help influence healthy eating & sleeping. The faster you try to move on with your life, the faster it'll all be better.


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OfflineAzen
Legalize ALL!
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Registered: 10/04/05
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Last seen: 10 years, 4 months
Re: Salvia induced permanent effects? [Re: Azen]
    #10067802 - 03/29/09 04:20 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Thanks everyone for your ideas and support.  I was completely fine before my salvia trip, then after I came out of it all these symptoms occurred.  Again, the chances of it being a coincidence are slim to none.  I don't think I hit my head.  My sitter would have said something.

I'll keep trying to take care of myself and maybe I'll snap out of it.  I used to be excited about things, loved doing outdoor stuff.  All of that's gone.  Maybe in the future I'll update this thread with some good news :smile:


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OfflineLegalize
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Re: Salvia induced permanent effects? [Re: Azen]
    #10068120 - 03/29/09 04:56 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

To me it sounds like HPPD coupled with depression.

Face it, you just wrote off your whole life. You said you didn't care about your wife or your child. You don't like doing things that you once loved to do.

You are depressed man.

All I can say is be thankful you don't have something more serious like schizophrenia, living every day in intense paranoia/anxiety/confusion.

Be thankful you are alive, because lying 6 feet under ground is the ultimate wost case scenario.

The brain is a very powerful thing, it can convince itself it has a specific condition when it doesn't. There is a story of a man who got locked in a meat locker, yet the thing is that the temperature wasn't even that low, around 50 degrees or so. The man thought it was 32 or below and basically died shortly after, even though he should have been able to live for much longer.

Eat healthy, exercise, lay off pyschoactive substances, and do what you love, or what you used to love.

If that doesn't work, seek professional help.

Best of luck man, coming from someone who thinks they have what you have just to a lesser extent.


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Opiate free since 8/26/10 :thumbup:

Opiate free since 6/22/11 :thumbup: :sun: :thumbup:


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OfflineKupo
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Registered: 08/07/08
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Re: Salvia induced permanent effects? [Re: Legalize]
    #10068191 - 03/29/09 05:04 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

I suggest another dose of salvia.

Take it for what you want. That's my suggestion.


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OfflineJPmagic
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Registered: 03/02/09
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Re: Salvia induced permanent effects? [Re: MasFina]
    #10068552 - 03/29/09 06:02 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Wow, I guess I've never heard of that happening off of Salvia, but when I did it, I did go to hell and back haha! Definitely an experience.


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Invisibletruffleupagus
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Registered: 02/19/06
Posts: 3,103
Re: Salvia induced permanent effects? [Re: JPmagic]
    #10069249 - 03/29/09 07:22 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Lately I've been getting this weed that I get a salvia type taste from and I've never smoked salvia out of that particular pipe.

So that's the only lasting effect that I've had.  If I'd never smoked salvia to know what it tastes like then it probably wouldn't faze me.


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OfflineJPmagic
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Registered: 03/02/09
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Re: Salvia induced permanent effects? [Re: truffleupagus]
    #10069339 - 03/29/09 07:33 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

truffleupagus said:
Lately I've been getting this weed that I get a salvia type taste from and I've never smoked salvia out of that particular pipe.

So that's the only lasting effect that I've had.  If I'd never smoked salvia to know what it tastes like then it probably wouldn't faze me.




Maybe someone is pinching salvia in your bags instead of green? lol


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Offlinecrazyskateboarding
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Registered: 05/05/10
Posts: 1
Loc: Castlegar, BC, Canada
Last seen: 13 years, 6 months
Re: Salvia induced permanent effects? [Re: Azen]
    #12508685 - 05/05/10 12:49 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

i have had this same effect...but i did 100X salvia and im not sure if it was directly the salvia of if it was cuz i first tired pot like 3-4 weeks later and had a very bad panic attack...ether way im not myself now. i do get better days than others though...and i do notice trying to find stuff to distract me from it helps like friends, video games, movies etc. i was feeling ok for 3-4 days now and then i filmed with a video camera and im not sure what happened but it came back for a bit. anyway best of luck to you glad to hear in some ways im not the only one this happened to.


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