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The_Red_Crayon
Exposer of Truth


Registered: 08/13/03
Posts: 13,673
Loc: Smokey Mtns. TN
Last seen: 7 years, 12 days
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Re: Where is the anti-war movement? [Re: SirTripAlot]
#5749546 - 06/14/06 12:37 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Once again you accuse people of being armchair general yet you fail to realize that USA cannot win Iraq by attrition, You continually fall back on wars of the past century to make comparisons today similar to the way the Germans made comparisons of the French and German war of 1870, to WWI, to WWII. For those who do not adapt their tactics they will lose.
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What I referring to was arm chair generals like yourself, predicting doom and glum over a war that doesn't even have 2,500 American deaths. This war historically, is in its infancy.
The battles of WW2 gave us causalities of over 6,000 in less then 2 weeks.
Their is a new generation of Warfare that doesnt rely on Territory or Body Count, It is a war fought over Moral Conflict, Whoever loses their moral base in the war they will surely lose. We can kill thousands upon thosands of Insurgents but it still wont change the fact that they can rig a 300$ bomb and blow up millions of dollars worth of coalition equipment. There is something Inherently wrong with this.
You will kill 10 of our men, and we will kill 1 of yours, and in the end it will be you who tire of it- Ho Chi Minh.
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SirTripAlot
Semper Fidelis


Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 7,782
Loc: Harmless (Mostly)
Last seen: 1 day, 3 hours
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Re: Where is the anti-war movement? [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
#5749949 - 06/14/06 03:07 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
The_Red_Crayon said: Once again you accuse people of being armchair general yet you fail to realize that USA cannot win Iraq by attrition, You continually fall back on wars of the past century to make comparisons today similar to the way the Germans made comparisons of the French and German war of 1870, to WWI, to WWII. For those who do not adapt their tactics they will lose.
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What I referring to was arm chair generals like yourself, predicting doom and glum over a war that doesn't even have 2,500 American deaths. This war historically, is in its infancy.
The battles of WW2 gave us causalities of over 6,000 in less then 2 weeks.
Their is a new generation of Warfare that doesn't rely on Territory or Body Count, It is a war fought over Moral Conflict, Whoever loses their moral base in the war they will surely lose. We can kill thousands upon thosands of Insurgents but it still wont change the fact that they can rig a 300$ bomb and blow up millions of dollars worth of coalition equipment. There is something Inherently wrong with this.
You will kill 10 of our men, and we will kill 1 of yours, and in the end it will be you who tire of it- Ho Chi Minh.
Pure conjecture.
Give me your reasons why a war of attrition will fail. You accuse me of referring to past wars inaccurately, and then leave a quote from Ho Chi Min........my God, the fucking the irony.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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exclusive58
illegal alien

Registered: 04/16/04
Posts: 2,146
Last seen: 6 years, 2 months
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Re: Where is the anti-war movement? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#5752279 - 06/15/06 02:57 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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RandalFlagg said: I think there is some fear of repeating the disgusting actions of the anti-Vietnam War movement. People disagree with the war but want to honor the troops. They don't want troops getting spit on and shit like that (which happened when they came home from Vietnam).
So the movement is non-existent out of respect for the troops? that doesn't add up IMO...
How about learning from these negative aspects of the anti-Vietnam war and not protest against the soldiers who are obeying to orders, but rather start protesting against those who are giving the orders?
Or, even more radical, what about if the actual soldiers learned that there's no honour in killing hundreds of innocents in an invasion based on false pretexts?
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Vvellum
Stranger

Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 10,920
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Re: Where is the anti-war movement? [Re: exclusive58]
#5752609 - 06/15/06 07:37 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Of course people care if there are hundreds of thousands of protesters, and not only people in the government, but the whole american population and the the rest of the world as well.
on the eve of the war, millions of people around the world and in the US gathered en masse in the streets. these demonstrations were the largest the world has ever seen. did that accomplish anything?
prior to the invasion of the Iraq, the largest demonstrations in north america as well as the rest of the world belonged to the anti-globalization movement. these demonstrations were intense and I, at the time, participated in several of them. we were tear gassed and fought the police in the streets as well as held "green zone" type demonstrations (non-direct action). did this curb nafta, gatt, ftaa, wto, world bank, imf, etc? Not at all - they have all moved forward.
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Seems that this involves only a handful of people though. What does the rest do to express their discontentment? They just place all their hopes on this handful of people and they just wait and see what happens? Ya man, that's what I call getting fired up for a cause!
expressing discontent does not equate to creating progress. building a community or culture does. like I said, creating these networks and pressuring elected officials and corporations and building funds and holding workshops and putting out literature and holding debates goes way further than putting all your energy into "protest parties."
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Seriously, take a look at your history. "The vietnam antiwar movement had a great impact on policy and practically forced the US out of Vietnam." How can you say that movements are useless?
Yes, the anti-vietnam war movement did affect the US government. However, demonstrations were only a fraction of what the anti-war movement did. the heart and soul of that movement was networking, community building, direct actions, social forums, and other forms of resistance. I think the anti-war movement during the Vietnam-era would have been more effective if they concentrated less on simple demonstrations and more into developing community. the movement would have been sustainable - demonstrations are not sustainable - they are easy to control, leave people unfulfilled, and only temporary.
demonstrations are just spectacles. we can do better than spectacles.
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wilshire
free radical


Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2,421
Loc: SE PA
Last seen: 14 years, 3 months
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Re: Where is the anti-war movement? [Re: exclusive58]
#5753402 - 06/15/06 12:18 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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there isn't much of one, because the war in iraq does not touch americans in ways they see and feel in their daily lives. they're not being drafted, goods are not rationed, it's not causing any major shifts in the economy, and they don't notice it on their tax bill. it's some conflict in a far away land. the people fighting it are other people, not you and i.
most people opposed to it to the point of actually doing something are not opposed out of self interest. for the majority of people, that's not motivation enough.
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exclusive58
illegal alien

Registered: 04/16/04
Posts: 2,146
Last seen: 6 years, 2 months
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Re: Where is the anti-war movement? [Re: wilshire]
#5759620 - 06/17/06 02:11 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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wilshire said: there isn't much of one, because the war in iraq does not touch americans in ways they see and feel in their daily lives. they're not being drafted, goods are not rationed, it's not causing any major shifts in the economy, and they don't notice it on their tax bill. it's some conflict in a far away land. the people fighting it are other people, not you and i.
Good point.  That's probably a big factor
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exclusive58
illegal alien

Registered: 04/16/04
Posts: 2,146
Last seen: 6 years, 2 months
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Re: Where is the anti-war movement? [Re: Vvellum]
#5759633 - 06/17/06 02:19 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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bi0 said: expressing discontent does not equate to creating progress. building a community or culture does. like I said, creating these networks and pressuring elected officials and corporations and building funds and holding workshops and putting out literature and holding debates goes way further than putting all your energy into "protest parties."
Maybe you're right, I don't know. It doesn't seem to have worked too well up until now though.
What's important to remember though is that its really the people who behold the power, and if people don't want a war, they should always have the capacity to stop it. They just need to get together, to unite into a body of one, until they get what they want. And if that doesn't work, then there's a big problem...
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AlteredAgain
Visual Alchemist


Registered: 04/27/06
Posts: 11,181
Loc: Solar Circuit
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Re: Where is the anti-war movement? [Re: exclusive58]
#5763081 - 06/18/06 02:36 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Where is the pro-peace movement?
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Phred
Fred's son


Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 4 months
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Re: Where is the anti-war movement? [Re: exclusive58]
#5799254 - 06/28/06 12:43 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Here are some useful projects anti-war activists can involve themselves. Apart from making giant puppets to parade around with, that is.
http://www.slate.com/id/2144578/
Phred
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