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Offlineexclusive58
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Registered: 04/16/04
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Where is the anti-war movement?
    #5740721 - 06/12/06 04:16 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Enlighten me.


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OfflineTheCow
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Re: Where is the anti-war movement? [Re: exclusive58]
    #5740732 - 06/12/06 04:27 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Writing a lab report while drinking some scotch thinking about how irrelevent everything is

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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Where is the anti-war movement? [Re: TheCow]
    #5740801 - 06/12/06 06:06 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

There is none of any significance.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

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Offlinefaslimy
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Re: Where is the anti-war movement? *DELETED* [Re: exclusive58]
    #5740832 - 06/12/06 06:32 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Post deleted by faslimy

Reason for deletion: .


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OfflineCosmic_Dragon
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Re: Where is the anti-war movement? [Re: faslimy]
    #5740834 - 06/12/06 06:38 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Angels on the sideline,
Puzzled and amused.
Why did Father give these humans free will?
Now they're all confused.

Don't these talking monkeys know that Eden has enough to go around?
Plenty in this holy garden, silly monkeys
Where there's one you're bound to divide it
Right in two

Angels on the sideline,
Baffled and confused.
Father blessed them all with reason,
And this is what they choose?

Monkey killing monkey killing monkey over pieces of the ground.
Silly monkeys give them thumbs they forge a blade
And where there's one they're bound to divide it
Right in two

Monkey killing monkey killing monkey over pieces of the ground.
Silly monkeys give them thumbs they make a club,
And beat their brother down.
How they survive so misguided is a mystery.
Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability,
To lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here.

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Where is the anti-war movement? [Re: exclusive58]
    #5740920 - 06/12/06 08:22 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

The majority oppose the war by now. There's no longer a need for a "movement."


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Where is the anti-war movement? [Re: exclusive58]
    #5740988 - 06/12/06 08:47 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

There is one. It is just not as vocal and vociferous as the anti-Vietnam war movement.

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Where is the anti-war movement? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5741429 - 06/12/06 11:40 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

> It is just not as vocal and vociferous as the anti-Vietnam war movement.

Nor should it be... at least not against the troops... be as vocal as you want to the politicians, but the soldiers are as much a victim of over zealous politicians as anybody else.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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InvisibleAlex213
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Posts: 1,839
Re: Where is the anti-war movement? [Re: exclusive58]
    #5741438 - 06/12/06 11:41 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Good question. It's a strange situation. The vast bulk of the UK population were against the war to begin with so an "anti-war" movement is basically the majority of people in the country.

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Where is the anti-war movement? [Re: Alex213]
    #5741643 - 06/12/06 12:41 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

:thumbup:

What Alex said.

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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: Where is the anti-war movement? [Re: exclusive58]
    #5741798 - 06/12/06 01:19 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

where I live (blue state), there are organizers everywhere canvasing and holding forums. there are small demonstrations in front of war-related corporations on a regular basis (lockheed martin headquarters for example). there are many neighborhood groups that organize together as well as hold vigils. whenever some politician comes into town (like cheney), he always receives a warm welcome. there is alot of anti-war and union interface.

ever so often there are large demonstrations. some of the largest demonstrations since the vietnam era have been in the last few years. but these mega-demonstrations are far and few between and hardly the focus of the movements' work.

in my opinion, the anti-war movement is not as radical or conspicious as, say, the vietnam anti-war movement. it is more community-based and focused on changing the minds of our representatives in the government, persuading (or shaming) corporations that profit from war, and raising funding. I think this is the correct way for the current situation. standing in the street being loud and holding signs only does so much - the police know how to lock you into "protest zones" and the media always lies. the current movement is working from within the system for change rather than trying to tear everything down.

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OfflineRosettaStoned
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Re: Where is the anti-war movement? [Re: exclusive58]
    #5741862 - 06/12/06 01:36 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

It is probably a mix of fear, apathy and blinded patriotism. Some against the war are afraid of what speaking out against it would cause to their personal lives. Even more just don't care what's going on in the world, they have their own little universe. Then I'd wager the smallest portion are just flag waving good hearted people who have been swept up in 9/11 and just wont listen to any evidence that could possibly make them question their stance.

Then there is the people who you do hear speak out and they get attacked left and right in the media for doing so.

Maybe as the years go by and the troop death counts rise (not that I want this to happen, just pointing out the reality of the situation) more will begin to stand up and speak out. Unfortunately I think a lot here in the US still agree with bush, since the only information they get is from their tv, they aren't aware of facts like FBI agents being prevented from apprehending 9/11 hijackers, or documents like northwoods operation, or the express visa program (available only in saudi arabia for 3 months or was it 1 month?) some hijackers used to get into this country without a visa interview from US embassy.

Information just gets buried in time and bullshit news stories so people really believe saddam was connected to terrorism and he had WMD that magically disappeared somehow. Then they toss in war stories about troop deaths instead of hospital buildings and pass it off as objective news. We have lost the media for the most part and also lost our ability to keep our govt in check with our laws.


--------------------
"Government big enough to provide you with all you need is also big enough to take everything you have." ~ Thomas Jefferson

"Without stupid, faggy potheads we wouldn't have wars." - Zappa

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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Where is the anti-war movement? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5742177 - 06/12/06 03:08 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:
There is one. It is just not as vocal and vociferous as the anti-Vietnam war movement.





Which makes those protests at service members funerals even more disgusting.

http://www.fox16.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=0DEEAF0E-8462-46C5-BBCE-B36F4BFAE58E


I am all for free speech. But trying to interrupt a funeral is impeding on the right of the family to properly have a ceremony.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

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InvisibleLuddite
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Re: Where is the anti-war movement? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5742187 - 06/12/06 03:11 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Maybe they're afraid of being blown up by Islamic terrorists.

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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: Where is the anti-war movement? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5742188 - 06/12/06 03:11 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

dont even lump those wacko bible-thumpers in with the anti-war movement. they are not related.

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Where is the anti-war movement? [Re: Luddite]
    #5742247 - 06/12/06 03:25 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Why would anti-war protestors worry about being blown up by Islamic terrorists? :flowstone:

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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Where is the anti-war movement? [Re: Vvellum]
    #5742295 - 06/12/06 03:33 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

bi0 said:
dont even lump those wacko bible-thumpers in with the anti-war movement. they are not related.





Bullshit. They are against the war. Even if they are a subset. Just because you dont agree with WHY they protest the war, does not make them anti war protesters.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

Edited by SirTripAlot (06/12/06 03:35 PM)

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Where is the anti-war movement? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5742322 - 06/12/06 03:38 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I don't believe they are against the war. I believe they are against gays.

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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: Where is the anti-war movement? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5742390 - 06/12/06 03:59 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

they are not against the war per se. they believe that homosexuality is bringing the wraith of god against america. protesting military funerals is their way of saying "haha told you so. the death of your son is god's revenge." they could just as easily protest a candlelight vigil at ground zero or a benefit for hurrican katrina victims.

again, they are not the anti-war movement - that is what we are talking about. they are anti-anything non-Christian and I'd say they are apathetic to the war or even support it (because it is supposedly god's venegence).

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Invisiblegone
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Re: Where is the anti-war movement? [Re: Vvellum]
    #5742640 - 06/12/06 05:08 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

It last happened in 2004. The elections you know! it's ok though, there's another shot in 2008. I still continue to think that electing officials is the most important voice the public can have. We just actually need to do it, not whine about it!

Unfortunately, this administration has been a *tad* happy on the trigger. -sorry couldn't help a jab at bush

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OfflineRosettaStoned
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Re: Where is the anti-war movement? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5742845 - 06/12/06 06:06 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Which makes those protests at service members funerals even more disgusting.




Very poor example imo.

They are not protesting a war, they are trying to spread homophobia under the guise of religion while using the war as a scapegoat.


--------------------
"Government big enough to provide you with all you need is also big enough to take everything you have." ~ Thomas Jefferson

"Without stupid, faggy potheads we wouldn't have wars." - Zappa

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OfflineBasilides
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Re: Where is the anti-war movement? [Re: exclusive58]
    #5742916 - 06/12/06 06:22 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Most sane, ethical people oppose the war at this point.


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"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

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OfflineBasilides
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Re: Where is the anti-war movement? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5742921 - 06/12/06 06:24 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
Quote:

bi0 said:
dont even lump those wacko bible-thumpers in with the anti-war movement. they are not related.





Bullshit. They are against the war. Even if they are a subset. Just because you dont agree with WHY they protest the war, does not make them anti war protesters.




Westboro Baptists are basically Wahhabi Christians. They could care less about the Iraq war, they just like to see America suffer.


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Where is the anti-war movement? [Re: Basilides]
    #5742965 - 06/12/06 06:34 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Basilides said:
Most sane, ethical people oppose the war at this point.




Not all of them


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: Where is the anti-war movement? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5743048 - 06/12/06 06:51 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

The Iraq invasion had no class.


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Where is the anti-war movement? [Re: Basilides]
    #5743179 - 06/12/06 07:16 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

It is pretty funny for people to critique a war in such a short period of time. It has been 3 to 4 years.....in my opinion it is way to early to tell if the decision was right or wrong. History will tell the real tale. If we had the media coverage we do now, would people have backed WW2?


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

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OfflineBasilides
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Re: Where is the anti-war movement? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5743227 - 06/12/06 07:24 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

WWII involved a country that was invading its neighbors left and right in a very sudden period of time.


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: Where is the anti-war movement? [Re: Basilides]
    #5743645 - 06/12/06 08:46 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

*two nations, actually.

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OfflineBasilides
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Re: Where is the anti-war movement? [Re: Vvellum]
    #5743763 - 06/12/06 09:17 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Whatever


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Where is the anti-war movement? [Re: Basilides]
    #5743879 - 06/12/06 09:42 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

What about Japan? We dropped a fucking nuke on them. Look at the country now compared to then.....

What I am eluding too is that NO ONE knows if this war is right or wrong.....its too early to tell.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

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InvisibleVvellum
Stranger

Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 10,920
Re: Where is the anti-war movement? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5744143 - 06/12/06 10:33 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_ends_justify_the_means

yes, we do not know how things will turn out. all we can do is look at the past and the present.

the reasons for invading iraq: bullshit
the amount of lies and hype needed to manufacture consent: many
progress in iraq so far: questionable

so far, not so good.

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Offlineexclusive58
illegal alien

Registered: 04/16/04
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Re: Where is the anti-war movement? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5744771 - 06/13/06 01:53 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:
There is one. It is just not as vocal and vociferous as the anti-Vietnam war movement.




Why isn't it though? Its not sufficient to just be against the war, there needs to be anti-war demonstrations, the people need to show that they aren't okay with what the government is doing. You're dreaming if you think that politicians will make their decisions simply based on popular opinion. Their needs to be popular action for the people to be heard. Are Americans scared to protest in the streets? Are they too lazy to do so? Don't have time? Why aren't people getting fired up for this. Look how the french got fired up just for the reform of a labor law. Nothing would've changed if people hadn't taken it to the streets.

If a majority of americans are against the war, I would expect huge anti-war movements. Explain to me why this isn't the case?


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: Where is the anti-war movement? [Re: Vvellum]
    #5744783 - 06/13/06 02:04 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

bi0 said:

in my opinion, the anti-war movement is not as radical or conspicious as, say, the vietnam anti-war movement. it is more community-based and focused on changing the minds of our representatives in the government, persuading (or shaming) corporations that profit from war, and raising funding.




IMO, those are rather hopeless actions. It might have some effect, but very little.

Quote:

I think this is the correct way for the current situation. standing in the street being loud and holding signs only does so much - the police know how to lock you into "protest zones" and the media always lies. the current movement is working from within the system for change rather than trying to tear everything down.




I think you're underestimating the effects of huge protests. Having hundreds of thousands of people in the street is a way of forcing the government to take a look at what the population thinks. Its much stronger than having the statistics of public opinion on a piece of paper. Politicans simply cannot disregard these kind of actions, they are forced to react. And huge protests aren't about tearing everything up, they're about uniting, and everyone knows that power is in the numbers.

And who cares if police has a special "protesters' zone", it won't change the number of protesters. And the media can't lie about a protest, they can only report back to the population, which can only be a good thing.


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: Where is the anti-war movement? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5744791 - 06/13/06 02:17 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
What about Japan? We dropped a fucking nuke on them. Look at the country now compared to then.....

What I am eluding too is that NO ONE knows if this war is right or wrong.....its too early to tell.




This is a horrible logic. It might even be a cognitive distortion. So basically anyone can invade anyone and say "History will tell whether this was the right thing to do".


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: Where is the anti-war movement? [Re: Basilides]
    #5744816 - 06/13/06 02:53 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

lol. ya i think that's basically what he's saying!

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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: Where is the anti-war movement? [Re: exclusive58]
    #5744841 - 06/13/06 03:26 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

we have had major demonstrations, and well, most people seem to have realized that they are kind of a waste of time and would rather devote their energy into something more productive. seriously, no one cares if there are thousands of people in the streets.

standing in the streets shouting and holding signs accomplishes nothing.

networking and organizing and fund raising and putting pressure on corporations and elected officials accomplishes alot more. sure it's not as sexy and immediately gratifying as a demonstration, but we're interested in sustainable change not posing.

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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: Where is the anti-war movement? [Re: Vvellum]
    #5748376 - 06/14/06 02:19 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

bi0 said:
seriously, no one cares if there are thousands of people in the streets.




Well if everyone starts thinking like that, i'm not surprised that there aren't any people in the streets. Of course people care if there are hundreds of thousands of protesters, and not only people in the government, but the whole american population and the the rest of the world as well. The political and social effects of protests are not nigligible, they put direct pressure on decision makers, and they get media attention which definitely has an effect on public opinion.



Quote:

networking and organizing and fund raising and putting pressure on corporations and elected officials accomplishes alot more.




Good luck with that...

Seems that this involves only a handful of people though. What does the rest do to express their discontentment? They just place all their hopes on this handful of people and they just wait and see what happens? Ya man, that's what I call getting fired up for a cause!


Seriously, take a look at your history. "The vietnam antiwar movement had a great impact on policy and practically forced the US out of Vietnam." How can you say that movements are useless?

Read up: http://www.studyworld.com/Antiwar_Movement.htm


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: Where is the anti-war movement? [Re: RosettaStoned]
    #5748384 - 06/14/06 02:25 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

RosettaStoned said:
It is probably a mix of fear, apathy and blinded patriotism. Some against the war are afraid of what speaking out against it would cause to their personal lives. Even more just don't care what's going on in the world, they have their own little universe. Then I'd wager the smallest portion are just flag waving good hearted people who have been swept up in 9/11 and just wont listen to any evidence that could possibly make them question their stance.




I'm starting to believe that you're right. This is the only plausible answer I've gotten so far. America's asleep. They're hypnotized by fear, television, and blind patriotism. The hawks are free to roam the earth...


--------------------

Edited by exclusive58 (06/14/06 03:00 AM)

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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Where is the anti-war movement? [Re: Basilides]
    #5748643 - 06/14/06 05:05 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Basilides said:
Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
What about Japan? We dropped a fucking nuke on them. Look at the country now compared to then.....

What I am eluding too is that NO ONE knows if this war is right or wrong.....its too early to tell.




This is a horrible logic. It might even be a cognitive distortion. So basically anyone can invade anyone and say "History will tell whether this was the right thing to do".






Thats not my logic!

There has been only 365 years of ALL recorded history , were there has not been a major conflict or war. War is chaos and unpredictable. It is unfortunately a human trait, and inevitable.

What I referring to was arm chair generals like yourself, predicting doom and glum over a war that doesn't even have 2,500 American deaths. This war historically, is in its infancy.

The battles of WW2 gave us causalities of over 6,000 in less then 2 weeks.

Did the world become a better place after World War 2?

IMO yes.

Did it take four years to achieve?

No


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Registered: 06/15/02
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Re: Where is the anti-war movement? [Re: exclusive58]
    #5749097 - 06/14/06 10:01 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

exclusive58 said:
America's asleep. They're hypnotized by fear, television, and blind patriotism.




:lol:

That's why President Bush has like a 30% approval rating.  That's why a majority of Americans when polled think that the Iraq war was a mistake.

I think there is some fear of repeating the disgusting actions of the anti-Vietnam War movement.  People disagree with the war but want to honor the troops.  They don't want troops getting spit on and shit like that (which happened when they came home from Vietnam).

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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: Where is the anti-war movement? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5749546 - 06/14/06 12:37 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Once again you accuse people of being armchair general yet you fail to realize that USA cannot win Iraq by attrition, You continually fall back on wars of the past century to make comparisons today similar to the way the Germans made comparisons of the French and German war of 1870, to WWI, to WWII. For those who do not adapt their tactics they will lose.

Quote:

What I referring to was arm chair generals like yourself, predicting doom and glum over a war that doesn't even have 2,500 American deaths. This war historically, is in its infancy.

The battles of WW2 gave us causalities of over 6,000 in less then 2 weeks.






Their is a new generation of Warfare that doesnt rely on Territory or Body Count, It is a war fought over Moral Conflict, Whoever loses their moral base in the war they will surely lose. We can kill thousands upon thosands of Insurgents but it still wont change the fact that they can rig a 300$ bomb and blow up millions of dollars worth of coalition equipment. There is something Inherently wrong with this.


You will kill 10 of our men, and we will kill 1 of yours, and in the end it will be you who tire of it- Ho Chi Minh.

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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Where is the anti-war movement? [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #5749949 - 06/14/06 03:07 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

The_Red_Crayon said:
Once again you accuse people of being armchair general yet you fail to realize that USA cannot win Iraq by attrition, You continually fall back on wars of the past century to make comparisons today similar to the way the Germans made comparisons of the French and German war of 1870, to WWI, to WWII. For those who do not adapt their tactics they will lose.

Quote:

What I referring to was arm chair generals like yourself, predicting doom and glum over a war that doesn't even have 2,500 American deaths. This war historically, is in its infancy.

The battles of WW2 gave us causalities of over 6,000 in less then 2 weeks.






Their is a new generation of Warfare that doesn't rely on Territory or Body Count, It is a war fought over Moral Conflict, Whoever loses their moral base in the war they will surely lose. We can kill thousands upon thosands of Insurgents but it still wont change the fact that they can rig a 300$ bomb and blow up millions of dollars worth of coalition equipment. There is something Inherently wrong with this.


You will kill 10 of our men, and we will kill 1 of yours, and in the end it will be you who tire of it- Ho Chi Minh.





Pure conjecture.

Give me your reasons why a war of attrition will fail. You accuse me of referring to past wars inaccurately, and then leave a quote from Ho Chi Min........my God, the fucking the irony.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

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Offlineexclusive58
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Registered: 04/16/04
Posts: 2,146
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Re: Where is the anti-war movement? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5752279 - 06/15/06 02:57 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:
I think there is some fear of repeating the disgusting actions of the anti-Vietnam War movement. People disagree with the war but want to honor the troops. They don't want troops getting spit on and shit like that (which happened when they came home from Vietnam).




So the movement is non-existent out of respect for the troops? that doesn't add up IMO...

How about learning from these negative aspects of the anti-Vietnam war and not protest against the soldiers who are obeying to orders, but rather start protesting against those who are giving the orders?

Or, even more radical, what about if the actual soldiers learned that there's no honour in killing hundreds of innocents in an invasion based on false pretexts?


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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: Where is the anti-war movement? [Re: exclusive58]
    #5752609 - 06/15/06 07:37 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Of course people care if there are hundreds of thousands of protesters, and not only people in the government, but the whole american population and the the rest of the world as well.




on the eve of the war, millions of people around the world and in the US gathered en masse in the streets. these demonstrations were the largest the world has ever seen. did that accomplish anything?

prior to the invasion of the Iraq, the largest demonstrations in north america as well as the rest of the world belonged to the anti-globalization movement. these demonstrations were intense and I, at the time, participated in several of them. we were tear gassed and fought the police in the streets as well as held "green zone" type demonstrations (non-direct action). did this curb nafta, gatt, ftaa, wto, world bank, imf, etc? Not at all - they have all moved forward.

Quote:

Seems that this involves only a handful of people though. What does the rest do to express their discontentment? They just place all their hopes on this handful of people and they just wait and see what happens? Ya man, that's what I call getting fired up for a cause!




expressing discontent does not equate to creating progress. building a community or culture does. like I said, creating these networks and pressuring elected officials and corporations and building funds and holding workshops and putting out literature and holding debates goes way further than putting all your energy into "protest parties."

Quote:

Seriously, take a look at your history. "The vietnam antiwar movement had a great impact on policy and practically forced the US out of Vietnam." How can you say that movements are useless?




Yes, the anti-vietnam war movement did affect the US government. However, demonstrations were only a fraction of what the anti-war movement did. the heart and soul of that movement was networking, community building, direct actions, social forums, and other forms of resistance. I think the anti-war movement during the Vietnam-era would have been more effective if they concentrated less on simple demonstrations and more into developing community. the movement would have been sustainable - demonstrations are not sustainable - they are easy to control, leave people unfulfilled, and only temporary.

demonstrations are just spectacles. we can do better than spectacles.

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Offlinewilshire
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Registered: 05/11/05
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Re: Where is the anti-war movement? [Re: exclusive58]
    #5753402 - 06/15/06 12:18 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

there isn't much of one, because the war in iraq does not touch americans in ways they see and feel in their daily lives. they're not being drafted, goods are not rationed, it's not causing any major shifts in the economy, and they don't notice it on their tax bill. it's some conflict in a far away land. the people fighting it are other people, not you and i.

most people opposed to it to the point of actually doing something are not opposed out of self interest. for the majority of people, that's not motivation enough.


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Offlineexclusive58
illegal alien

Registered: 04/16/04
Posts: 2,146
Last seen: 6 years, 21 days
Re: Where is the anti-war movement? [Re: wilshire]
    #5759620 - 06/17/06 02:11 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

wilshire said:
there isn't much of one, because the war in iraq does not touch americans in ways they see and feel in their daily lives. they're not being drafted, goods are not rationed, it's not causing any major shifts in the economy, and they don't notice it on their tax bill. it's some conflict in a far away land. the people fighting it are other people, not you and i.





Good point. :thumbup:
That's probably a big factor


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Offlineexclusive58
illegal alien

Registered: 04/16/04
Posts: 2,146
Last seen: 6 years, 21 days
Re: Where is the anti-war movement? [Re: Vvellum]
    #5759633 - 06/17/06 02:19 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

bi0 said:
expressing discontent does not equate to creating progress. building a community or culture does. like I said, creating these networks and pressuring elected officials and corporations and building funds and holding workshops and putting out literature and holding debates goes way further than putting all your energy into "protest parties."






Maybe you're right, I don't know. It doesn't seem to have worked too well up until now though.

What's important to remember though is that its really the people who behold the power, and if people don't want a war, they should always have the capacity to stop it. They just need to get together, to unite into a body of one, until they get what they want. And if that doesn't work, then there's a big problem...


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InvisibleAlteredAgain
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Registered: 04/27/06
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Loc: Solar Circuit
Re: Where is the anti-war movement? [Re: exclusive58]
    #5763081 - 06/18/06 02:36 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Where is the pro-peace movement?


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
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Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
Re: Where is the anti-war movement? [Re: exclusive58]
    #5799254 - 06/28/06 12:43 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Here are some useful projects anti-war activists can involve themselves. Apart from making giant puppets to parade around with, that is.

http://www.slate.com/id/2144578/





Phred


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