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Invisibleshroomydan
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Logic
    #5737505 - 06/11/06 10:46 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

What is it?

This is a question for those who think they know, specifically for f_g.

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Logic [Re: shroomydan]
    #5737520 - 06/11/06 10:49 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

:lol:

I'd answer, but I'd hate to support state-sponsored trollism.

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Invisibleshroomydan
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Re: Logic [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5737540 - 06/11/06 10:54 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

This is a simple question. That you do not answer tells me you do not know.

You don't even know what logic is, yet you accuse others of being illogical. Put up or shut up.

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Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
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Re: Logic [Re: shroomydan]
    #5737546 - 06/11/06 10:56 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

it is all about style:
the most refined monkey see monkey do.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Logic [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5737573 - 06/11/06 11:02 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Well, judging from the behavior of those who maintain that they are logical, logic is something that causes someone who is using it to direct ad hominems agansit another when their points are questioned, and then to ignore subsequent replies in that thread, and then to start a new thread in which one can continue to direct ad hominems agansit that person, while altogether escaping any responsibility to properly support the points that one expressed that were questioned in the first place. :lol:

Quote:


That you do not answer tells me you do not know.




Stunning deduction. :shocked: It is interesting to find out that such conclusions are based in logic. :wink:

Quote:


you don't even know what logic is, yet you accuse others of being illogical. Put up or shut up.




It is no fault of mine if others cannot operate with valid reasoning, and it is not my responsibility to condescend when they get upset that they cannot substantiate their illogical claims. :shrug:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Logic [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5737594 - 06/11/06 11:10 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

That was a very logical response.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Logic [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5737602 - 06/11/06 11:13 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

:lol:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Offlinefresh313
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Re: Logic [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5737630 - 06/11/06 11:20 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

The study of the principles of reasoning, especially of the structure of propositions as distinguished from their content and of method and validity in deductive reasoning.
- webster

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Logic [Re: fresh313]
    #5737664 - 06/11/06 11:33 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Logic, of course, has multiple definitions, most of them pertaining to a system of reasoning, with one specifically referring to valid reasoning. :wink:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Invisibleshroomydan
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Posts: 4,126
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Re: Logic [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5738446 - 06/11/06 03:51 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

We have a definition from Webster. Thank you fresh313. :thumbup:
It's a good start, but the dictionary definition is a little thin. After all, many volumes have been written on the topic of logic.
I will attempt to flesh it out a bit.



F_G said:
Quote:

Logic, of course, has multiple definitions, most of them pertaining to a system of reasoning, with one specifically referring to valid reasoning.




Not much substance there f_g. Pay attention
and you might learn something.  :wink:
------------------------------

I passed logic 4 years ago with an A, and I have since tutored other students who were struggling. I also just finished my BA in Philosophy (with distinction GPA 3.89), and I have been accepted to grad school. I plan to teach philosophy at the college level. Philosophy is my true passion; mushrooms are just a hobby.

Logic is the first class philosophy majors are required to take, because it is foundational. Without a proper grasp of logic, one cannot hope to understand complex philosophical arguments.

So... Logic.

Logic is derived from the Greek word logos which can be translated either as "word" or "reason".



Logic is the discipline of correct reasoning using words.

In philosophy, logic almost exclusively applies to arguments.



Validity and Soundness

Many students confuse these two terms, so it is essential that we be sure of their meanings before moving forward.

Validity
"Validity" is a term that refers to the structure of an argument. A valid argument is one in which the conclusion is supported by the premises. Every valid argument that has true premises will have a true conclusion, but valid arguments need not have true conclusions if one or more of the premises are not true.

Example:

All cats are blue.
Fireworks_gad is a cat.
Therefore, fireworks_gad is blue.


Though the conclusion is false, the above argument is completely valid, because the conclusion is supported by the premises.


Soundness
Soundness refers to the truth value of the conclusion of a valid argument. If all the premises are true, and the the structure of the argument is valid, then the conclusion will be true. In this case we have a sound argument. But not all arguments with true conclusions are sound.

Example:

Bill Clinton was the first president of the United States.
The first president of the United states was a Democrat.
Therefore, Bill Clinton was a Democrat.


Though the above argument is valid, and the conclusion is true, it is still not a sound argument because it contains false premises.

-------

I hope the distinction between validity and soundness is now clear. Unless there are questions, I will next move on to the structural requirements for validity. From there we will tackle theories of truth in an attempt to discover the the grounding principle of logic.

Peace

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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Logic [Re: shroomydan]
    #5738453 - 06/11/06 03:53 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Logic is more than deduction, no?

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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Posts: 7,469
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Re: Logic [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5738543 - 06/11/06 04:14 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
Logic is more than deduction, no?




It can be. People just haven't learned all of its uses.

I can deduce the easiest way to make dinner in 10 minutes or I can induce a more complex menu that will take 60 minutes to prepare. Both will require some form of logical order and reasoning.

Even if I reason preparing the meal that takes longer to make by saying, it will taste better, or I have a craving for it, or, I have to use up certain items in the fridge before they go bad, those are all valid reasons to me, to spend more time on it.

Something being valid doesn't always mean it is objective or has to be and that you can prove it or have to.

Can I and do I have to prove to you that something tastes better to me for my decision to spend 60 minutes on dinner to be a logical one?

Can I and do I have to prove my food craving to you for my decision to spend more time making dinner to be a logical one?

Logic is a line of reasoning. You can use it to reason anything small and simple or grand and complex to yourself and often others.

Logic itself does not validate or invalidate a goal or idea. We use it to validate or invalidate goals and ideas to ourselves and each other to serve our intended purposes and preferences. There is a difference.

It's just a tool that can make things small or big, simple or complex. Logic was used to create tha atom bomb and wireless internet. Those are grand and complex things.

:peace: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Invisibleshroomydan
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Re: Logic [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5738579 - 06/11/06 04:22 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Sure, there is also inductive logic, but I gotta start somewhere.  :wink:

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Logic [Re: shroomydan]
    #5738616 - 06/11/06 04:31 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

shroomydan said:
Not much substance there f_g. Pay attention
and you might learn something.  :wink:




I wasn't attempting to provide much substance. I do, however, intend on paying attention with the intention of learning something. :wink:

In addressing your point in the other thread, I failed to effectively represent my point. I should have said that your premise was faulty, eh? :grin:

I appreciate the time you are investing in this and look forward to reading more.

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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OfflineGomp
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Re: Logic [Re: shroomydan]
    #5739836 - 06/11/06 09:56 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Logical..

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Offlinemichael_lifshitz
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Re: Logic [Re: Gomp]
    #5740050 - 06/11/06 10:45 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Logic is oh so interesting.

I like it and use it, but look forward to reading up on it more formally.

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Invisibleshroomydan
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Re: Logic [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5746920 - 06/13/06 07:19 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Good.  :smile:

You are helping me become a better teacher.


The structural requirements for validity.

I first learned logic as an avionics technician in the United States Navy. My job was to troubleshoot and repair broken components of the F-14 weapons control radar system. This often required me to trace signals through a series of electronic logic gates: and gates, not gates, or gates, exclusive or gates, etc. 

As a freshman philosophy student, I was pleasantly surprised to find that electronic logic and philosophical logic follow the same rules. The high and low of digital logic corresponds exactly to the true and false of classical logic, upon which it is based. If the logic is faulty in an electronic system, the device will not function properly, and if the logic is faulty in a philosophical argument, the argument will not lead to truth, and truth is what philosophy seeks.

At this point I could list the zoo of universally valid argument forms, which I had to memorize, along with a list of common logical fallacies, which I also had to memorize, but I think it would be more beneficial in this forum to look toward the foundation of all logical validity. We find this foundation in the principle of identity.

Principle of Identity:

A thing is what a thing is.
A=A.
If p then p.


The principle of identity is the foundational axiom of logic. From the principle of identity one can easily deduce the second foundational axiom of logic, the Principle of Non-Contradiction.

Principle of Non-Contradiction: 

Two contradictory assertions cannot both be true.
It is not possible for a thing to both be and not be, in the same way, at the same time.
A ~= ~A
("~" is logical notation for "not").
If p, then ~ ~p.

The third foundational axiom of logic is the principle of the excluded middle. It is easily deduced from the two previous axioms.

Principle of Excluded Middle:

Either a thing is, or a thing is not; there is no third possibility.
Either A or ~A, but not both.
p v ~p, but ~(p . ~p)
1 ("v" is logical notation for "or" and  "." is logical notion for "and")

Aristotle held that these axioms are self evident; all rational beings will consider them to be true. Whether or not they are self evident, and how they are affirmed to be true, requires a discussion of truth theory, which I will address in the next post. For now let it suffice to say that all valid argument forms are rooted in these three axioms. Any statement or argument which violates one of these principles is absurd. Absurd is  the technical term for an illogical assertion.

If anyone would like see the list of universally valid argument forms and the list of common fallacies, I will be happy look them up and post them.

Unless there are objections or questions, I will next address what grounds logic. There are three theories I like: Logic is self-evident (Aristotle), logic is rooted in Aesthetics (Peirce); logic must be taken on faith (Augustine & James).

Until next time,

Peace





1Some have argued for potential being as a third alternative, but this requires the use of Modal Logic, which is beyond the present scope of this discussion. Within classic logic, potential being is considered a category of non-being: An egg is potentially a chicken, but an egg is not a chicken.

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Logic [Re: shroomydan]
    #5746963 - 06/13/06 07:28 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Two contradictory assertions cannot both be true.

Good luck convincing much of the S&P crowd that this is so. I've been there, done that, and finally gave up. :shrug:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Posts: 4,587
Re: Logic [Re: Diploid]
    #5746985 - 06/13/06 07:32 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Man, like, did you notice how what that shroomydan guy said is true and is not true, in, like, every respect, dude?

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Logic [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5747024 - 06/13/06 07:40 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

So:

p . ~p

OK :shrug:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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