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InvisibleMasFina
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What Would Your Utopia be Like?
    #5736669 - 06/11/06 12:50 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

What is the ideal form of government, or lack thereof? Are you a laisez faire capitalist, hard core communist, somewhere in between, or something different alltogether?


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: What Would Your Utopia be Like? [Re: MasFina]
    #5736709 - 06/11/06 12:58 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

A wise and frugal Government shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government. -- Thomas Jefferson


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Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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InvisibleMasFina
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Re: What Would Your Utopia be Like? [Re: Diploid]
    #5736836 - 06/11/06 01:26 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I posed this question in hopes of hearing some specific ideas, not vague quotes that mean nothing unless you can back them up.


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Invisibleblacksabbathrulz
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Re: What Would Your Utopia be Like? [Re: MasFina]
    #5736914 - 06/11/06 02:00 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

1. Illegal Immigrants would not be granted welfare, free healthcare, or education, nor would any of their children.
2. All people who are even suspsected of being illegal, would be checked for citizenship, and if they failed to meet that criteria would be deported.
3. Anyone crossing the border illegally would be shot on site.
4. Tax money saved by not spending it on illegal immigrants would be used to employ people to shoot illegal immigrants.
5. People who drive like assholes would be executed.
6. People who go through an express lane with more than 10 items will be executed
7. People who write checks in the express lane would also be subject to execution.
8. God damn people who blast music at night would be executed.
9. People who leave their dogs outside to bark at night would be executed.
10. Junkies who steal to support their habit would be placed in prison, and given drugs. They would be forced to do work from inside their cells.
11. Drugs would be legal.
12. Pedophiles and rapists upon non-circumstantial conviction would be executed, after being tortured.
13. Anyone who pissed me off, would also be executed.

That would be a utopia. especially the first 5.


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Offlinegregorio
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Re: What Would Your Utopia be Like? [Re: MasFina]
    #5737025 - 06/11/06 02:45 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

No government, or total Anarchy, is the pure way.

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InvisibleMasFina
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Re: What Would Your Utopia be Like? [Re: gregorio]
    #5737075 - 06/11/06 03:08 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Ok, dictatorship as long as you are the dictator. Anarchy? Please explain why this would be good.

So hard to have a serious conversation on here. And if someone is serious they just regurgitate some lofty generalized ideals that they can not even begin to represent as a realistic scenario.

I think I need to find a new messageboard for talking about politics/philosophy/spirituality.


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OfflineWhiteRabbitt
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Re: What Would Your Utopia be Like? [Re: MasFina]
    #5737111 - 06/11/06 03:23 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Historically I'd say the best form of rule has been heavy handed dynastic monarchies, since they were the best at keeping the populace under control. But since the 20th century onward and our globalization/world economies, laisez faire capitalism looks like the way to go.


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OfflineMagillaGorilla
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Re: What Would Your Utopia be Like? [Re: WhiteRabbitt]
    #5737178 - 06/11/06 03:56 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

If you wish to look at history, and pick out a specific form of rule which has 'worked' as the best, then yes I'd quite agree with you on the issue of monarchy - humans seem to enjoy having a Godhead they can worship and serve under.
Capitalism, on the other hand, has done nothing beneficial for our world other then promote the overgrowth of technology and greed - take a look a the current state of our planet, we're fighting over a substance that is already obsolete in its uses.

The system I believe would promote human development and overall well-being, is an anarcho-communist state. The will of the people can accomplish amazing things when banded together for a common cause - and if the cause is mutual survival of the human race, I see amazing potential.
The problem with this, is that many humans cannot seperate themselves from the concept of material wealth, and material compensation. True wealth is your life, that of those around you, and the land you live on - compensation for your labour/skills is the betterment of the community, and the upkeep of your land.

Now before you go condemning me for suggesting you throw away your plasma tv, your xbox, or your internet, understand that I'm doing no such thing - these things still can exist, but they are not essential to the survival of humanity.

With the elimination of bureaucratic and administrative positions, not to mention the other countless 'jobs' that serve no real function and contain no production, an enormous amount of human producing power is freed.
Put to use, communities could expect a required work week of no more then 4 days (Marx suggests in the Communist Manifesto creating labour laws restricting a person to no more then 4 shifts in a week, no work on weekends, and no longer then 6 hours in a day, with absolutely NO overtime. He also suggests children under the age of 16 be lawfully barred from employment, instead focusing their time on education).
With that much free time, and nothing to stop your pursuit of interests, why not develop a new system of computing hardware?

In fact, computers would likely be considered an essential product - global communication and the raw processing power of modern computers make them valuable for almost any application.

Laws are also another subject many find hard to grasp; doesn't Anarchy mean absence of authority?
Anarchy itself means absence of political authority - a community still has the ability to determine for itself what actions are considered to be beneficial or detrimental to the body.
Murder, theft, etc are still crimes - they are crimes against the community, and an active community would take definate measures to either prevent or deal with these situations.
However, due to the nature of an anarcho-communist state, a crime such as theft is quite unlikely - nobody has anything you cannot obtain yourself with as much ease.


I've just begun to scratch the surface here, but I hope that this is enough to give people a general idea of what I think is an amazing system of 'governance'.

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OfflineDieSpectra
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Re: What Would Your Utopia be Like? [Re: blacksabbathrulz]
    #5737807 - 06/11/06 12:18 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

A wise and frugal Government shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government. -- Thomas Jefferson





That sounds good to me. Let men choose their own paths and let them be as long as they aren't hurting anyone. Keep government small so that taxes are miniscule to non-existent.

Basically I just want a restored constitutional republic with the ideals of the founding fathers.

There is no such thing as anarchy imo. I don't believe it can exist at least for any length of time. If you have no government in the first place to protect the ideals of anarchy then powerful groups will take over and turn it into dictatorship.

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: What Would Your Utopia be Like? [Re: MasFina]
    #5737999 - 06/11/06 01:28 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I think the final stage of communism would be the ideal utopia. But the problem, of course, is that it is utopian, and not realistic.


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OfflineMagillaGorilla
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Re: What Would Your Utopia be Like? [Re: DieSpectra]
    #5739842 - 06/11/06 09:57 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

There is no such thing as anarchy imo. I don't believe it can exist at least for any length of time. If you have no government in the first place to protect the ideals of anarchy then powerful groups will take over and turn it into dictatorship.




I agree that there would be some contestation from outside powers, but I think you're missing a few points here; the 'government' that protects the ideals of the anarchy is the body of the people itself - they would understand that an outside power has no right to enforce its beliefs or systems of governance, and rise up to protect themselves against it.
How would they have achieved their status as an independent anarchist state in the first place?

Also, without means of production in their control, how would an outside force raise enough power to overthrow an entire community striving to maintain its own survival?
They would need to convince enough people not only to manufacture their military goods, but to use them as well - if people are properly educated, they would see this as an affront to humanity and would likely not participate.

Again, with an entire community striving for it's own survival and betterment, even if a dictator forced himself upon them, once people had had a taste of the prosperity and freedom anarchy could bring how can you force them to do your bidding; public executions, torture, inane laws?
A dictator would likely end up with a ravenous mob outside his door, tearing the very foundations down around him; I just don't think an enlightened community would allow it.
An anarchist state does not need to be defenseless - in fact, it would be much easier to defend since the 'militia' would consist of EVERY able-bodied person; more humans would be willing to kill and die if their very way of life was at stake.

As to Silversoul, I agree with you wholeheartedly - the current state of humans would defenately not allow a system like this to function. Education of the people is where it all begins.

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: What Would Your Utopia be Like? [Re: MasFina]
    #5739895 - 06/11/06 10:10 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

A limited federalist government, with a majority of the power granted to local and regional governments instead of the federal government. Taxes should be minimal and the society should be laissez-faire capitalist regardless of whether bartering or currency is the method of exchange. I would like the police to leave me alone unless I am harming someone else.

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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: What Would Your Utopia be Like? [Re: Redstorm]
    #5739940 - 06/11/06 10:18 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

A babe-ocracy where good-looking women were redistributed to me in the name of "fairness" and "equality".

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OfflineDreeker
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Re: What Would Your Utopia be Like? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5739959 - 06/11/06 10:22 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

My utopia would be like this:

Hot days, breezy nights
Small city without crime
My house in the outskirts of city, sort of a country a la Dazed and Confused setting
Great clubs in the city, great parties on the countryside

No cops since no crime
man and it would be invitation only, run by some rich ass guys, on an island, with max cap of like 35,000 people

would be amazing, if i ever get rich beyond my wildest dreams, thats it baby!

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OfflineDieSpectra
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Re: What Would Your Utopia be Like? [Re: Redstorm]
    #5739962 - 06/11/06 10:23 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
A limited federalist government, with a majority of the power granted to local and regional governments instead of the federal government. Taxes should be minimal and the society should be laissez-faire capitalist regardless of whether bartering or currency is the method of exchange. I would like the police to leave me alone unless I am harming someone else.




Exactly :laugh:

That's all I ask for.

MagillaGorilla - It really donsn't sound like the idea of responisble anarchism and a representative constitutional republic are really all that different.  As anarchists you'd still have to agree not to kill each other, not steal each others property, etc.  If it were to ever work anyway.  Which is really all a government should be there to protect against.  So basically with anarchy rules would just be spoken word where as a republic they would be written down.

*shrug

But yeah either way we're screwed cause those days are over... we are only left with big tyrannical government. :frown:

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OfflineMagillaGorilla
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Re: What Would Your Utopia be Like? [Re: DieSpectra]
    #5739992 - 06/11/06 10:31 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I'm actually talking about an anarcho-communist state, but yes it is quite similar to a constitutional republic.

The main difference is absence of a 'leader' figure and a buearaucratic administration - these are positions that don't need to exist for a society to function. If everybody agrees on how things should be run, why do I need somebody in a suit who has never lifted a finger telling me how to do it?

I think that either system would work well, we just need to establish a governing body which is not influenced by greed! Capitalism could be a very well built system if it wasn't founded on screwing everybody around you just so you can see an extra few $$ in a business quarter.
Competition is healthy, greed is not.

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InvisibleJonPathetic
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. [Re: MasFina]
    #5740158 - 06/11/06 11:21 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

.

Edited by JonPathetic (07/29/07 08:40 PM)

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Invisiblechunder
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Re: What Would Your Utopia be Like? [Re: JonPathetic]
    #5740444 - 06/12/06 12:53 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Maybe we're already living in our Utopia?

This is as good as it gets!


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: What Would Your Utopia be Like? [Re: chunder]
    #5742804 - 06/12/06 05:55 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Neither capitalism nor communism is a form of government. Most of you know, that right? Typical governments for communist economic system are fascistic. Typical governments for capitalist economic system are democratic. Hmmmmmm. Some real hard math here

I might tweak the US Constitution a bit, given what's been done to it. Mostly, god would be totally out of it and there would be stronger preservations for self destruction and stronger assurances that the government should not be involved in bailing idiots out for their own stupid choices.


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Invisiblegone
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Re: What Would Your Utopia be Like? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5743116 - 06/12/06 07:04 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Simple, i would base the society on the original american ideal. Add to that actual accountability, remove fear of the unkown, and you are all set up.

A perfect utopia simply needs people in it who understand instead of judge without knowledge.

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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: What Would Your Utopia be Like? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5744595 - 06/13/06 12:31 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Typical governments for communist economic system are fascisticTypical governments for capitalist economic system are democraticHmmmmmm. Some real hard math here

Nonsense.

Hitler's Germany was a capitalist dream. Do you think China has a "communist" economy? The UK had some elements of a "communist" economy and was never close to being a dictatorship.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: What Would Your Utopia be Like? [Re: Alex213]
    #5746520 - 06/13/06 05:33 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
Typical governments for communist economic system are fascisticTypical governments for capitalist economic system are democraticHmmmmmm. Some real hard math here

Nonsense.

Hitler's Germany was a capitalist dream.



Bullshit. It was a fascistic socialist state which brooked no dissent. Just like the Soviet Union was a fascistic socialist state. The government decided who could make money and who could not.
Quote:



Do you think China has a "communist" economy?



Yes. Don't you?
Quote:



The UK had some elements of a "communist" economy and was never close to being a dictatorship.




The UK HAS elements of a socialist state. A lot of them. One could strongly argue that confiscatory taxes are a fascist signifier. Who said anything about a dictator? Who's the dictator of China? China is still fascist. Name one free communist state.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: What Would Your Utopia be Like? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5748171 - 06/14/06 01:06 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Bullshit. It was a fascistic socialist state which brooked no dissent. Just like the Soviet Union was a fascistic socialist state. The government decided who could make money and who could not.

Bullshit. Without big business bankrolling Hitler he would never have come to power. Hitler sent all the socialists and trade unionists to concentration camps. That doesn't sound like the actions of a socialist to me.

Yes.

Really? Well, China is the biggest growing economy on the planet so does that mean communism works?

China is still fascist

I thought you said it was communist?

Name one free communist state.

You're thinking about this in a very simplistic way. You need to look at the histories of countries a little more. The UK could follow communist economic principles and never become a dictatorship. America followed communist principles during the New deal and never became a dictatorship. Things arn't as simple as you want to believe.

Not to mention that the list of countries following a capitalist economy that have brutal dictatorships is as long as your arm.

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OfflineBasilides
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Re: What Would Your Utopia be Like? [Re: MasFina]
    #5748464 - 06/14/06 03:14 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

My ideal utopia would be similar to Water World, except civilization would be under the ocean. There would even be technology that managed to bring confined energy from the sun to be used in agriculture domes. Scuba diving technology would also be highly advanced, and people would venture outside the bubble domes. Government would be defined by the income of food and happiness, not money.


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"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

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OfflineKonnrade
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Re: What Would Your Utopia be Like? [Re: MasFina]
    #5756067 - 06/16/06 01:48 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

In order for a utopia to exist, people would have to cease to exist.


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I find your lack of faith disturbing

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InvisibleTODAY
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Re: What Would Your Utopia be Like? [Re: Konnrade]
    #5757325 - 06/16/06 01:25 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Konnrade said:
In order for a utopia to exist, people would have to cease to exist.




Lol. Pretty much true.

I like the USA but I have a couple of problems with its current way of conducting business.

I think the federal government needs to step the fuck out of the states as far as their undermining our democratically agreed upon laws per state. The feds should exist to defend our country against foreign threat and regulate interstate commerce so that business is conducted fairly. They should also appropriate tax dollars to states and states to cities based upon the economic productivity of the states and the cities.

States should have the right to write laws that don't muddle with interstate commerce or else the feds should have to step in to set things back in order. States should provide health and minimal welfare services to residents of that state.

Local governments should have the right to pass laws so long as they don't mess with interstate commerce. They should also have the right to establish zoning and construction guidlines as well as fund social works from their own tax budget.

The type of economic system I advocate is of course, free market capitalism...however, this is to be regulated as minimally as possible so that fair competition can exist.

The good thing about a lot of little governments, of course, is that if you don't like your local or state government, you are free to move to another state or city that fits your personal style better.


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ca'rouse (k-rouz)
intr.v.
To engage in boisterous, drunken merrymaking.

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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: What Would Your Utopia be Like? [Re: MasFina]
    #5758850 - 06/16/06 09:38 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

MasFina said:
What is the ideal form of government, or lack thereof? Are you a laisez faire capitalist, hard core communist, somewhere in between, or something different alltogether?




Posthumanistic Libertarian Technocracy.

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