|
MasFina
Snow Shredder


Registered: 05/08/06
Posts: 788
Loc: Mountains
|
What Would Your Utopia be Like?
#5736669 - 06/11/06 12:50 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
What is the ideal form of government, or lack thereof? Are you a laisez faire capitalist, hard core communist, somewhere in between, or something different alltogether?
-------------------- A Good Substrate: Poo With Extras Good Liquid Culture, Step by Step Timer Modification PM me if you are interested in buying 140ml syringes. $6 each + $7 shipping
|
Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: What Would Your Utopia be Like? [Re: MasFina]
#5736709 - 06/11/06 12:58 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
A wise and frugal Government shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government. -- Thomas Jefferson
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
MasFina
Snow Shredder


Registered: 05/08/06
Posts: 788
Loc: Mountains
|
Re: What Would Your Utopia be Like? [Re: Diploid]
#5736836 - 06/11/06 01:26 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
I posed this question in hopes of hearing some specific ideas, not vague quotes that mean nothing unless you can back them up.
-------------------- A Good Substrate: Poo With Extras Good Liquid Culture, Step by Step Timer Modification PM me if you are interested in buying 140ml syringes. $6 each + $7 shipping
|
blacksabbathrulz

Registered: 05/22/02
Posts: 2,511
|
Re: What Would Your Utopia be Like? [Re: MasFina]
#5736914 - 06/11/06 02:00 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
1. Illegal Immigrants would not be granted welfare, free healthcare, or education, nor would any of their children. 2. All people who are even suspsected of being illegal, would be checked for citizenship, and if they failed to meet that criteria would be deported. 3. Anyone crossing the border illegally would be shot on site. 4. Tax money saved by not spending it on illegal immigrants would be used to employ people to shoot illegal immigrants. 5. People who drive like assholes would be executed. 6. People who go through an express lane with more than 10 items will be executed 7. People who write checks in the express lane would also be subject to execution. 8. God damn people who blast music at night would be executed. 9. People who leave their dogs outside to bark at night would be executed. 10. Junkies who steal to support their habit would be placed in prison, and given drugs. They would be forced to do work from inside their cells. 11. Drugs would be legal. 12. Pedophiles and rapists upon non-circumstantial conviction would be executed, after being tortured. 13. Anyone who pissed me off, would also be executed.
That would be a utopia. especially the first 5.
-------------------- .
|
gregorio
Too Damn Old


Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 2,837
Loc: Classified
Last seen: 1 month, 13 days
|
Re: What Would Your Utopia be Like? [Re: MasFina]
#5737025 - 06/11/06 02:45 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
No government, or total Anarchy, is the pure way.
|
MasFina
Snow Shredder


Registered: 05/08/06
Posts: 788
Loc: Mountains
|
Re: What Would Your Utopia be Like? [Re: gregorio]
#5737075 - 06/11/06 03:08 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Ok, dictatorship as long as you are the dictator. Anarchy? Please explain why this would be good.
So hard to have a serious conversation on here. And if someone is serious they just regurgitate some lofty generalized ideals that they can not even begin to represent as a realistic scenario.
I think I need to find a new messageboard for talking about politics/philosophy/spirituality.
-------------------- A Good Substrate: Poo With Extras Good Liquid Culture, Step by Step Timer Modification PM me if you are interested in buying 140ml syringes. $6 each + $7 shipping
|
WhiteRabbitt
Stranger


Registered: 06/06/02
Posts: 3,486
Last seen: 16 years, 20 days
|
Re: What Would Your Utopia be Like? [Re: MasFina]
#5737111 - 06/11/06 03:23 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Historically I'd say the best form of rule has been heavy handed dynastic monarchies, since they were the best at keeping the populace under control. But since the 20th century onward and our globalization/world economies, laisez faire capitalism looks like the way to go.
-------------------- You gotta jump and swing up to hit me in the knees.
|
MagillaGorilla
Cosmic Ape


Registered: 03/13/04
Posts: 108
Loc: BC, Canada
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
|
Re: What Would Your Utopia be Like? [Re: WhiteRabbitt]
#5737178 - 06/11/06 03:56 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
If you wish to look at history, and pick out a specific form of rule which has 'worked' as the best, then yes I'd quite agree with you on the issue of monarchy - humans seem to enjoy having a Godhead they can worship and serve under. Capitalism, on the other hand, has done nothing beneficial for our world other then promote the overgrowth of technology and greed - take a look a the current state of our planet, we're fighting over a substance that is already obsolete in its uses.
The system I believe would promote human development and overall well-being, is an anarcho-communist state. The will of the people can accomplish amazing things when banded together for a common cause - and if the cause is mutual survival of the human race, I see amazing potential. The problem with this, is that many humans cannot seperate themselves from the concept of material wealth, and material compensation. True wealth is your life, that of those around you, and the land you live on - compensation for your labour/skills is the betterment of the community, and the upkeep of your land.
Now before you go condemning me for suggesting you throw away your plasma tv, your xbox, or your internet, understand that I'm doing no such thing - these things still can exist, but they are not essential to the survival of humanity.
With the elimination of bureaucratic and administrative positions, not to mention the other countless 'jobs' that serve no real function and contain no production, an enormous amount of human producing power is freed. Put to use, communities could expect a required work week of no more then 4 days (Marx suggests in the Communist Manifesto creating labour laws restricting a person to no more then 4 shifts in a week, no work on weekends, and no longer then 6 hours in a day, with absolutely NO overtime. He also suggests children under the age of 16 be lawfully barred from employment, instead focusing their time on education). With that much free time, and nothing to stop your pursuit of interests, why not develop a new system of computing hardware?
In fact, computers would likely be considered an essential product - global communication and the raw processing power of modern computers make them valuable for almost any application.
Laws are also another subject many find hard to grasp; doesn't Anarchy mean absence of authority? Anarchy itself means absence of political authority - a community still has the ability to determine for itself what actions are considered to be beneficial or detrimental to the body. Murder, theft, etc are still crimes - they are crimes against the community, and an active community would take definate measures to either prevent or deal with these situations. However, due to the nature of an anarcho-communist state, a crime such as theft is quite unlikely - nobody has anything you cannot obtain yourself with as much ease.
I've just begun to scratch the surface here, but I hope that this is enough to give people a general idea of what I think is an amazing system of 'governance'.
|
DieSpectra
Stranger

Registered: 05/08/06
Posts: 109
Last seen: 11 years, 4 months
|
|
Quote:
A wise and frugal Government shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government. -- Thomas Jefferson
That sounds good to me. Let men choose their own paths and let them be as long as they aren't hurting anyone. Keep government small so that taxes are miniscule to non-existent.
Basically I just want a restored constitutional republic with the ideals of the founding fathers.
There is no such thing as anarchy imo. I don't believe it can exist at least for any length of time. If you have no government in the first place to protect the ideals of anarchy then powerful groups will take over and turn it into dictatorship.
|
Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
|
Re: What Would Your Utopia be Like? [Re: MasFina]
#5737999 - 06/11/06 01:28 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
I think the final stage of communism would be the ideal utopia. But the problem, of course, is that it is utopian, and not realistic.
--------------------
|
MagillaGorilla
Cosmic Ape


Registered: 03/13/04
Posts: 108
Loc: BC, Canada
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
|
Re: What Would Your Utopia be Like? [Re: DieSpectra]
#5739842 - 06/11/06 09:57 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
There is no such thing as anarchy imo. I don't believe it can exist at least for any length of time. If you have no government in the first place to protect the ideals of anarchy then powerful groups will take over and turn it into dictatorship.
I agree that there would be some contestation from outside powers, but I think you're missing a few points here; the 'government' that protects the ideals of the anarchy is the body of the people itself - they would understand that an outside power has no right to enforce its beliefs or systems of governance, and rise up to protect themselves against it. How would they have achieved their status as an independent anarchist state in the first place?
Also, without means of production in their control, how would an outside force raise enough power to overthrow an entire community striving to maintain its own survival? They would need to convince enough people not only to manufacture their military goods, but to use them as well - if people are properly educated, they would see this as an affront to humanity and would likely not participate.
Again, with an entire community striving for it's own survival and betterment, even if a dictator forced himself upon them, once people had had a taste of the prosperity and freedom anarchy could bring how can you force them to do your bidding; public executions, torture, inane laws? A dictator would likely end up with a ravenous mob outside his door, tearing the very foundations down around him; I just don't think an enlightened community would allow it. An anarchist state does not need to be defenseless - in fact, it would be much easier to defend since the 'militia' would consist of EVERY able-bodied person; more humans would be willing to kill and die if their very way of life was at stake.
As to Silversoul, I agree with you wholeheartedly - the current state of humans would defenately not allow a system like this to function. Education of the people is where it all begins.
|
Redstorm
Prince of Bugs



Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 6 months, 28 days
|
Re: What Would Your Utopia be Like? [Re: MasFina]
#5739895 - 06/11/06 10:10 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
A limited federalist government, with a majority of the power granted to local and regional governments instead of the federal government. Taxes should be minimal and the society should be laissez-faire capitalist regardless of whether bartering or currency is the method of exchange. I would like the police to leave me alone unless I am harming someone else.
|
RandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
|
Re: What Would Your Utopia be Like? [Re: Redstorm]
#5739940 - 06/11/06 10:18 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
A babe-ocracy where good-looking women were redistributed to me in the name of "fairness" and "equality".
|
Dreeker
Stranger

Registered: 05/21/06
Posts: 53
Last seen: 15 years, 9 months
|
Re: What Would Your Utopia be Like? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#5739959 - 06/11/06 10:22 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
My utopia would be like this:
Hot days, breezy nights Small city without crime My house in the outskirts of city, sort of a country a la Dazed and Confused setting Great clubs in the city, great parties on the countryside
No cops since no crime man and it would be invitation only, run by some rich ass guys, on an island, with max cap of like 35,000 people
would be amazing, if i ever get rich beyond my wildest dreams, thats it baby!
|
DieSpectra
Stranger

Registered: 05/08/06
Posts: 109
Last seen: 11 years, 4 months
|
Re: What Would Your Utopia be Like? [Re: Redstorm]
#5739962 - 06/11/06 10:23 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Redstorm said: A limited federalist government, with a majority of the power granted to local and regional governments instead of the federal government. Taxes should be minimal and the society should be laissez-faire capitalist regardless of whether bartering or currency is the method of exchange. I would like the police to leave me alone unless I am harming someone else.
Exactly 
That's all I ask for.
MagillaGorilla - It really donsn't sound like the idea of responisble anarchism and a representative constitutional republic are really all that different. As anarchists you'd still have to agree not to kill each other, not steal each others property, etc. If it were to ever work anyway. Which is really all a government should be there to protect against. So basically with anarchy rules would just be spoken word where as a republic they would be written down.
*shrug
But yeah either way we're screwed cause those days are over... we are only left with big tyrannical government.
|
MagillaGorilla
Cosmic Ape


Registered: 03/13/04
Posts: 108
Loc: BC, Canada
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
|
Re: What Would Your Utopia be Like? [Re: DieSpectra]
#5739992 - 06/11/06 10:31 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
I'm actually talking about an anarcho-communist state, but yes it is quite similar to a constitutional republic.
The main difference is absence of a 'leader' figure and a buearaucratic administration - these are positions that don't need to exist for a society to function. If everybody agrees on how things should be run, why do I need somebody in a suit who has never lifted a finger telling me how to do it?
I think that either system would work well, we just need to establish a governing body which is not influenced by greed! Capitalism could be a very well built system if it wasn't founded on screwing everybody around you just so you can see an extra few $$ in a business quarter. Competition is healthy, greed is not.
|
JonPathetic

Registered: 12/17/05
Posts: 235
|
|
.
Edited by JonPathetic (07/29/07 08:40 PM)
|
chunder
marker

Registered: 08/11/02
Posts: 966
Loc: The City
|
Re: What Would Your Utopia be Like? [Re: JonPathetic]
#5740444 - 06/12/06 12:53 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Maybe we're already living in our Utopia?
This is as good as it gets!
--------------------
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
|
Re: What Would Your Utopia be Like? [Re: chunder]
#5742804 - 06/12/06 05:55 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Neither capitalism nor communism is a form of government. Most of you know, that right? Typical governments for communist economic system are fascistic. Typical governments for capitalist economic system are democratic. Hmmmmmm. Some real hard math here
I might tweak the US Constitution a bit, given what's been done to it. Mostly, god would be totally out of it and there would be stronger preservations for self destruction and stronger assurances that the government should not be involved in bailing idiots out for their own stupid choices.
--------------------
|
gone
gone
Registered: 10/30/04
Posts: 21
|
Re: What Would Your Utopia be Like? [Re: zappaisgod]
#5743116 - 06/12/06 07:04 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Simple, i would base the society on the original american ideal. Add to that actual accountability, remove fear of the unkown, and you are all set up.
A perfect utopia simply needs people in it who understand instead of judge without knowledge.
|
|