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Offlinepalmersc
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alcoholism a disease
    #5719956 - 06/06/06 05:53 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I frequently go to NA and AA meetings and have been through a few months of corrective thinking rehab classes.

I'm not very well received when I laugh at them when told that alcoholism is a disease.

I think this way of thinking tries to make us every bit as irresponsible for ourselves as abusing drugs does. Labeling alcohol as "cunning and baffling." I'm surrounded by people who are following some steps that are god sent. They label others who do not adhere to their new found way of life as sick people.

At those classes we are constantly told we are worthless pieces of shit and our best thinking is what got us here, so we are not normal and need to be shown how normal people live. While some are in need of guidance, I'm surprised at how many people suck this shit up and then proceed to look down on people who didn't jump on the same boat. We are constantly told not to hang out with "old" friends and at meetings I hear an array of messages just regurgitated over and over.

Guess I just got to play along and make this as quick and painless as possible. But when it gets around to my turn to speak sometimes I can't help myself. What I'm really after at those meetings is hearing somebody else's ideas other than Dr. Bob's.

I got kind of off topic, but just wondering what the consensus is on this disease.


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Offlineleery11
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Re: alcoholism a disease [Re: palmersc]
    #5719973 - 06/06/06 05:57 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

disease is not a good word

there are genes that make people prone to alcoholism as far as I have heard..... and I always hear "it runs in your family" etc, etc...

but frankly I don't know about it at all. You get drunk, it feels good. You get drunk again, it feels good. You get drunk again, you have a physical dependence.

Why don't we hear of tobaccoism as a disease, or cannabis-ism as a disease?

It's just addiction really. Addiction is vicious and may require outside intervention perhaps, and could be considered a "disease" maybe but I don't like the term and the way they use it either, myself.


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I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!


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Offlinepalmersc
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Re: alcoholism a disease [Re: leery11]
    #5720005 - 06/06/06 06:04 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

no they refer to addiction as a disease. Gambling, drugs whatever. Used alcohol cause I usually talk with alcoholics at the meetings. They tell us that we are physically and mentally not normal and need help if we don't want to die.

Sorry for bringing such shit to the table, but I got another year of this and wondered if their tactics sounded suspicious.


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OfflineGomp
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Re: alcoholism a disease [Re: palmersc]
    #5720009 - 06/06/06 06:06 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

You mean the word, in its most common context? (As used this moment/as of this day ... )

Or the meaning of the word, as the word itself?

Dis ease?

Why alcoholism?
Because of; lack of ease?
Dis·ease!?

Just being curious.


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: alcoholism a disease [Re: palmersc]
    #5720969 - 06/06/06 10:10 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I do not believe that addiction is a disease.

It is an affliction that can happen to any person on the planet if they do something to excess.

Addiction is not a disease.....it's the human condition, of no longer being in control of your life.
It can happen to anyone of us.

To think that someone who is addicted to something, is sick or has something wrong with their genetic codes, is foolish.


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: alcoholism a diseasea [Re: niteowl]
    #5721535 - 06/07/06 12:44 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

AA has helped a lot of people but obviously its not perfect and could probably (well definitetly) be better. as for alcoholism being a disease, no, its an addiction.


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OfflineTelepylus
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Re: alcoholism a diseasea [Re: Deviate]
    #5721614 - 06/07/06 01:06 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

yep yep gomp
it's dis-ease when it becomes a problem

like gambling, or cheating on your wife, or road rage
or anything else

we all got problems and there's a group for everything, and, most of the people there are always idiots, lol

my favorite part is when they hold hands in a circle and pray at the end. i've never actually been a alcoholic or junky, but i've been to tons of meetings.


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: alcoholism a diseasea [Re: Deviate]
    #5721666 - 06/07/06 01:21 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

He was saying that addiction itself, is a disease.

Quote:

palmersc said:
no they refer to addiction as a disease. Gambling, drugs whatever.




I can't see how being addicted to something can be considered a disease.

Addiction is merely a state of mind.

It is neither good nor bad.

You can be addicted to porn, sex, food, video games, the internet.......are these addictions diseases?????

:noway:

They call them diseases, to make it sound like the person suffering from their addiction, has no control over their addiction. That they are some how "genetically prone" to addiction (defective, in some way....abnormal)

This is just a sneaky way to get you to "give your live over to god".

"You're worthless, and can't think for yourself, therefore you must think like us"  :whatever:

They take people who are already addicts, and just change their addiction from a chemical/emotional addiction to a dogmatic addiction. :shrug:


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: alcoholism a diseasea [Re: niteowl]
    #5721722 - 06/07/06 01:46 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)


He was saying that addiction itself, is a disease.


yes, i know that. and i was saying there is no reason to say that because the model of addiction is fine by itself. in other words, i think we should concieve of addictions as addictions, rather than lumping them in with cancer and the flu.


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OfflineGomp
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Re: alcoholism a diseasea [Re: Gomp]
    #5722180 - 06/07/06 08:14 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Are "we" confusing "illness" and "disease", here!?

:wink:


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--------------------
Disclaimer!?


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: alcoholism a disease [Re: palmersc]
    #5722186 - 06/07/06 08:19 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Alcohol Use Disorders:
303.00  Alcohol Dependence
305.00  Alcohol Abuse

Alcohol-Induced Disorders:
303.00  Alcohol Intoxication
291.8    Alcohol Withdrawal
291.0    Alcohol Intoxication Delirium
291.0    Alcohol Withdrawal Delirium
291.2    Alcohol-Induced Persisting Dementia
291.1    Alcohol-Induced Persisting Amnesic Disorder
291.5    Alcohol-Induced Psychotic Disorder, With Delusions
291.3    Alcohol-Induced Psychotic Disorder, With Hallucinations
291.8    Alcohol-Induced Mood Disorder
291.8    Alcohol-Induced Anxiety Disorder
291.8    Alcohol-Induced Sexual disorder
291.8    Alcohol-Induced Sleep Disorder
291.9    Alcohol-Related Disorder Not Otherwise Specified

Page 195 Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fourth Edition  (AKA DSM IV)

I've been a substance abuse counselor in practice since 1982. Alcoholism is a "Mental Disorder," which is to say a disease of the mind. Are you getting the point through your denial? This isn't a mere opinion. The Disease has onset, symptoms, stages, organic correlates, and it often results in death. It is not a 'spiritual or moral weakness,' as thought in the 19th century when it was called dipsomania. I have worked with 7th grade middle school alcoholics, seen friends succumb and even suicide.    :eek: WAKE UP :eek:


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinemockeylock
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Re: alcoholism a disease [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5722215 - 06/07/06 08:42 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

So what does "God" have to do with it??? Doesn't AA invovle prayer and giving yourself to the Lord?

Or am I totally off base here?


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InvisibleStonerguy
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Re: alcoholism a disease [Re: palmersc]
    #5722233 - 06/07/06 09:00 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

These are there tacticts. They break you down so they can build you up. I think it is a bullshit way, I was in something like for awhile. Every time I had to speak I let them know my stance in a polite way, but made sure I got my point across. The twelve step program is a bunch of bullshit, its whole basis is that you believe in a higher power.............

I have very strong feelings on this matter, as I have had to endure it. The American "rehab" methods DO NOT WORK.


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yawn...
SG


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: alcoholism a disease [Re: Stonerguy]
    #5722940 - 06/07/06 02:00 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

how do you feel about some of the alternatives to AA's method, such as http://www.smartrecovery.org/ and http://www.rational.org/?


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: alcoholism a disease [Re: mockeylock]
    #5725140 - 06/07/06 11:28 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

What doesn't God have to do with? What is excluded from God?
Alcoholism is a misdirected attempt at religion, thus sayeth Dr. Carl Jung. Yhere is more than meaningless coincidence at calling alcohol 'spirits,' and the whole Dionysian aspect becomes exaggerated to pathological extremes. Dionysus means 'god of nysus [Greece]'. AA is a yoga-stage-like discipline that Bill Wilson constructed based on his own 4 years of LSD psychotherapy. Since he could not give LSD to alcoholics, he translated his experience down to a very workable program - and this after C.G. Jung told him that religious experience was the answer to the misdirected alcoholics plight. Read Bill's autobiography if you're interested.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: alcoholism a disease [Re: Stonerguy]
    #5725144 - 06/07/06 11:31 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

The 12 Steps are brilliant and about the ONLY thing that is curative. You're the one full of bovine excrement. Why not clean up and clean out?


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: alcoholism a disease [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5725225 - 06/07/06 11:58 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Trying to impose a religion belief on someone who doesn't believe, in order to help them overcome a mental disease, is ridiculous. "I know you don't believe in God, but in order for our therapy to be effective, you're going to have to start believing!"


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: alcoholism a disease [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5725611 - 06/08/06 02:30 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

that's a common critisism of AA and one of the reasons why AA is not for everyone. some people will simply be turned off by a spiritual approach and that's why there are other secular organizations which may suit them better.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: alcoholism a disease [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5725740 - 06/08/06 04:21 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

just because a group of people or an organization has devoted a name to a behavioral problem relative to societal normalcy, does not make it "proof of a disease".

AA has claimed at times that it has a 90% success rate, yet almost every study, even one internal study, by AA themselves, found no more than a 10% success rate. On average, through the life span of AA, they have a 5% success rate for "curing alchoholism", even though they themselves claim it is an "incurable disease".

I don't see why more people don't just take that pill that makes you violently ill if you drink? I garauntee that a conditioned physical aversion will work more permanently and more proficiently than "God's miraculous 12 step recovery".

Psychiatry is not a science..... mostly. Im sure there are some studies out there which are purely objective, but the greater majority of "scientific" studies regarding psychiatry/psychology use subjective and even abstract concepts as constants which can be measured against. Take for instance "attention span", great catch phrase, 4-year olds to octagenarians use it, but what is it? doesn't the term "span" denote measurement? I wonder where I can buy an attentionometer?

Often times, psychiatry ignores one of the main tenets of "scientific discovery": CAUSE AND EFFECT.

Here is a study I would like to see performed. How about we DNA test and analyze a group of 100 toddlers, find how many have the "drunk gene", make that the control group, chart their next 20-30 years of life, and see how many become alchoholics.

See, where Psychiatry really jumps the gun is that they are testing people who are already full blown drunks? after years and years of barrages of poison you will find that your chemical make-up has been altered, thus CAUSE AND EFFECT.

just like depression..... whenever you study a group of people already "afflicted" with said disease, of course you will find physical or mental similarities, that is like saying "we found that a great majority of pregnant women have stretch marks on their stomachs, therefor, being pregnant causes stretch marks"...... but that isn't the case right? it is the stretching of skin, not the insemination of an egg..... yet the two are highly LINKED, but not a CAUSE AND EFFECT of each other.


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OfflineRoker
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Re: alcoholism a disease [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5725764 - 06/08/06 04:50 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Help me please - I can't stop screwing around on my wife, it must be a disease because I caught it off my girlfriend who is screwing around on her husband who caught it from the receptionist at his work.

It's not my fault, it is a real illness affecting millions of people all over the world. I'm desperate, I feel an attack coming on. I will have to wait till my wife goes to work, then go next door to my neighbours house and try to relieve the swelling.


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