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InvisibleMoo456
Pied_Piper

Registered: 03/03/06
Posts: 4,591
Unraveling the secrets of the alkaloids
    #5721963 - 06/07/06 04:32 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I have experimented with both morning glory seeds and HB woodrose seeds many times now, observed the diverse reports of other people’s use, and also taken in consideration that there are multiple alkaloids in the seeds.

At first I was very puzzled how I could have such radically different experiences with them. So many times ive felt sick and disturbed, while other times ive gotten blissful and profound trips. The answer came to me recently after I ingested 11 HB woodrose seeds with Syrian rue. A bit too much huh? What a nasty violent trip it was too, yet a revealing one.

I put together that all those times before when I thought I was ill, I actually did trip. I was able to recognize that I wasn’t sick because of all the things that everyone sets the blame on. It wasn’t cyanide on the seed coat, pesticides, or any kind of physical illness at all. I’m now certain that the body load and the “sedative effect” are both just part of a psychoactive effect that disrupts the natural functions of your bodily functions. That certainly explains why some have to think about breathing while they trip and I can imagine that’s why it screws with your blood circulation.

That leaves me with 2 questions. Is there two different psychoactive alkaloids? And, what separates a good visual trip from a sickness with little/no trip like effects? I can’t really say much about the individual alkaloids, but I am certain that you can have a good trip if you overcome your body and mental isolation.

My advice is to socialize while coming up and observe the outside world (maybe take a walk in a friendly environment). Also don’t lie down or close your eyes, keep your eyesight focused on a large area so you don’t feel claustrophobic or too focused on your own body. All of that mostly applies to the come up as it will be the theme for almost your entire trip, once you get settled you can do whatever probably.
Dramamine/motion sickness pills are effective in making your body less susceptible to the body problem, while pot will increase visuals and psychedelic mood.

Anyway I hope this helped some of you understand what you may have gone through in your LSA attempts and also helped some to see that LSA has potential for good experiences.


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OfflineCoaster
Baʿal
Male User Gallery

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 33,501
Loc: Deep in the Valley
Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
Re: Unraveling the secrets of the alkaloids [Re: Moo456]
    #5721989 - 06/07/06 05:12 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

good read


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OfflineExplosiveMango
HallucinogenusDigitallus
Male User Gallery

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 3,222
Last seen: 14 years, 2 months
Re: Unraveling the secrets of the alkaloids [Re: Moo456]
    #5722133 - 06/07/06 07:33 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Personally, I have not yet done HBWR, though I have some in the mail.

I don't think I can quite agree with your 'if you're sick you're trippin' statement... although I know where you are coming from. Different LSA trips put vastly different physical and mental loads on you. In my experience/opinion you can get sickness without tripping however.

It is my expectation that the chemicals that cause the sickness (80-90% of it at least) can be removed from morning glory... and I have done various extractions which make me believe this further.

I think your two questions (multiple alks? why sick only sometimes?) could have a slew of answers... setting, set, mood, drug combinations could help answer the second...

Personally, I am interested in doing some exploratory chemistry with morning glory and HBWR. I think this is the only way to really answer the first question.

I think the biggest 'trick' about morning glory- especially in it's unextracted form (crushed seeds only) is recognizing that you can USE its positive effects to 'conquer' its negative effects.

The type of mental dexterity/awareness morning glory grants me has always been enough to nullify any pain associated with it- with effort.
The type of 'sedation' morning glory gives me (combined with lots of water. water = good) has always been enough to resist and ignore the muscle cramps- with effort.

Your advice about activities to do when coming up sounds to be on the right track to me... but I think you should explore more into why you do these particular things to achieve positivity. In my experience, and especially my observation of others, comfort has always been the hardest aspect to gain on the LSA trip... and there hasn't been any single way to do that... but whenever the user can become comfortable, it's a GREAT trip.

I agree that Dramamine/dimenhydrinate helps the physical load of morning glory ALOT. I can't say with the same certainty that it has no psychedelic impact (after all, its a psychedelic/deleriant itself with the right dose).


LSA has amazing potential.


--------------------
Know your self.
Know your substance.
Know your source.

The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.


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OfflineEdit
Stranger
Registered: 05/29/04
Posts: 52
Loc: UK
Last seen: 14 years, 6 months
Re: Unraveling the secrets of the alkaloids [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #5722270 - 06/07/06 09:30 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=5502

That may be of some help to you. I've not yet tried HBWR seeds but if and when I do that'll be the way I do 'em.

=]


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Invisiblethedudenj
Man of the Woods

Registered: 08/18/04
Posts: 14,684
Re: Unraveling the secrets of the alkaloids [Re: Edit]
    #5722663 - 06/07/06 12:13 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

hmm i think its more hydration and preparation becuase i had ayahusaca with and ate the seeds and i got mild nausea then very visual trip many colours flowing everywhere and a mind fuck the colourful part was in my shower then mind fuck was in my room


--------------------

"You all are just  puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain...""
you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours


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Offlinejohnuk
Strangerlove
Registered: 06/13/05
Posts: 226
Last seen: 13 years, 8 months
Re: Unraveling the secrets of the alkaloids [Re: thedudenj]
    #7006466 - 06/04/07 05:50 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

I've tried HBWR 3 times now, haven't tried MG yet since HBWR is easier.

The first time I tried 10 and felt sick for around 12 hours, but could hold it back. I didn't take anything else with them.

Next time I tried 15 with two friends. I also smoked about a joints worth of weed. I felt really good and only felt like I might be sick for an hour or two about five or six hours in. Both my friends were quite badly sick. One doesn't have much experience with psychoactives, but the other is quite adventurous and probably weighs a few stone more than me. I'm about 9st, ~126 - 133lbs, so 15 seeds is a decent amount for my body mass.

The last time I tried 20 seeds, without anything else. The nausea was extremely strong. I excercise a lot and have stomach muscle. When I took my shirt off, I could see my abdomen seems permanently contracted, and my stomach (just under my ribs), was distended - even though I purposefully hadn't eaten much. It was literally as if my body wasn't letting the seeds go any further. Standing up straight didn't feel great, on any of the experiences. With 20 seeds I curled up on my bed for most of the time.

I fought against the nausea caused after 20 seeds, but about five or six hours later gave up and was, kind of thankfully, sick into my sink.

All the seeds where from the same store.

I would say, comparing the 20 and 15 seed experience, that if you are sick it dramatically reduces the intensity and duration of the experience. Even if you chew them up really well, it seems that they take a good amount of time to break down. If you're sick within the first few hours, I suspect that you also sick up at least some percentage of the good components.

My 15 seed experience last 24 hours or more, and had a long gentle trail off - the glide back down was beautiful actually. My 20 seed experience went much more steeply down after being sick (not in a crashing sense), and I was back to normal much more quickly.

While I can agree with you that fear and anticipation certainly aren't going to help, I do think that the cyanogens (and perhaps some of the less nice alkaloids) are to blame for the nausea. We could always test this by eating something like Cherry Laurel (which also contains a load of cyanogens) but that's something I'm willing to remain ignorant of, given how utterly terrible the feeling of being slowly poisoned by them seems to be. It's the duration of the feeling that makes it particularly nasty. It's long and drawn out over hours and hours as the cyanogens break down and keep you continually poisoned.

When I was trying to ID Cherry Laurel (which is actually from Prunus, not the Laurels), the first thing I noticed was that the crushed leaves smell amazingly tasty, like almonds or marzipan - it's distilled to make an alternative to bitter almond water. I believe that same smell is also a tell tale sign of possible cyanogen content. And yes... believe it or not, people use Cherry Laurel BECAUSE it has that in it, and store it in ways such that it won't break down, so's they can do things like use it as eye drops? :confused:

If it was merely fear and anticipation causing the nausea, I'd expect there to be some variation between everyone's experience of it. But one of my friends was describing virtually identical sensations to ours even though he'd been down the hall in his own room for the few hours that they started to appear over. Also, the sensation is almost identical every time I've tried them, regardless of setting or mood.

With 20 seeds, I had strong sensations that my mouth and skin were dry (in fact, I felt dry inside as well - probably something to do with my body trying to break down the cyanogens and the resulting cyanides), and a continuous 'creamy / tangy' taste in my mouth kind of like when you get up with a really bad hangover. I actually got up from my bed a few times to rinse cold water on my feet, hands and face, then sat in front of a fan with the window open. I, and my other two friends, had the feeling that we needed to stretch our arms and legs all the time. There's also a very strange sensation of feeling tired but at the same time feeling awake (we all had that). I think these may be due to the cyanogens (or nastier alkaloids) as well - restlessness is a symptom of cyanide poisoning.

But all of the rest, sensitivity to light, sounds and so on I would say is the LSA and better alkaloids.

I do suspect that all the stuff to do with seed hulls may just be myth. Since I've heard from at least guy who's actually tried it and said it didn't make any difference. I also did some searching and couldn't find anything about cyanogens being confined to seed hulls; there are cyanogens in apple, and other fruit, seeds, but you'd need to eat a few hundred apple seeds I think, quickly.

There are lists of the major alkaloids present readily available. I haven't gotten round to checking any of them on their own to see if they mention anything about nausea. I may do that tonight and report back.

If I try them again I'd extract them first.

I've read a lot of junk about these on the net, so here are my tips...

Buy seeds that do actually contain LSA. I bought some from eBay at first, claiming to be psychoactive but for planting, and they weren't LSA contain HBWR. They might not have even been HBWR. They did nothing.

Avoid being sick. If you're sick, don't expect it to work.

I'd class these alongside things like Amanita, as things that are to be experienced but that you might not necessarily want to go back to. HBWR is perhaps more appealing to me than Amanita, and it's only really the nausea that puts me off. I'm tempted to say their duration, regardless of nausea, is also a bit annoying if you haven't planned ahead, but then it's also nice to have a really long experience sometimes - it gives you time to really take things in and think about what you'd like to do and try.

Some warnings...

Don't eat Cherry Laurel. It doesn't have LSA in, but does have lots and lots of ultra bad stuff in it - like, hydrocyanide acid, benzene based compounds... not good at all!

20 seeds is not a normal dose. Don't try that many your first time or you'll be in for a big suprise! Even 15 is quite a few. The nausea caused by that many is the main problem. And I'm genuinely concerned about precisely what that many seeds is doing to your body if the sensation is due to cyanide poisoning.

Cyanide is poisonous because it gets blocks the electron chain carrier system that metabolised ADP to ATP (the last stage of your dinner going into a universal energy medium for your cells to work with) - which is why it has such a powerful effect. Your blood can be saturated with oxygen and it won't go into burning carbohydrates because the cyanide is blocking the path for it, so your skin turns pink when severely poisoned by cyanide as the blood saturates with oxygen. Your cells need a 100% continuous supply of energy to repair damage caused by free radicals, clean up other byproducts of intracellular processes and so on. Cyanide doesn't build up like carbon monoxide or heavy metal poisoning. Once it's gone, it's gone. But whatever it manages to damage by switching off the energy supply while it's there will need repairing or will remain damaged.

Interestingly, switching off the repair system should also invite cancer to form, since it makes your DNA vunerable to damage by mutagens, like free radicals, that would otherwise be cleared out of the way. The repair systems within your cells are a work of art. They're also the cheats that no one likes to admit to that mean you keep running while a synthetic, stand alone machine breaks down and needs discrete repair time - it's a continuous process in your cells.

Other than extracting and splitting away the cyanogic layers, I have wondered if perhaps they could be reacted to a harmless product. Digestive enzymes break the cyanogens down into the cyanides, so it may be possible to recreate that step in-vitro by grinding them up and slobbering onto them. Then you'd need a quick and easy reaction to bind the ions up into something harmless. I'll check into that later as well.

Saying all this, I am extremely interested in the idea that some of the alkaloids may be contributing to the effect and will read around it a bit later - wiki and reference articles, not fora opinions from people who haven't tried them. The psychoactive nature of the LSA it's self is probably only going to enhance the negativity of the experience from a psychological point of view. Violently puking up the entire contents of your stomach, and then some, is quite a novel experience whilst LSA enhanced. :grin:


Edited by johnuk (06/04/07 06:34 AM)


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