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OfflinePsychedelics
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Was this Biggie vid before the trade tower disaster?
    #5721639 - 06/07/06 01:11 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Juicy - lyrics...

"blow up like the world trade"
:ooo:


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OfflineDobie
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Re: Was this Biggie vid before the trade tower disaster? [Re: Psychedelics]
    #5721640 - 06/07/06 01:12 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

its from when they first blew it up


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InvisibleTheDude
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Re: Was this Biggie vid before the trade tower disaster? [Re: Psychedelics]
    #5721644 - 06/07/06 01:13 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

it was exbloweded up twiced

derrrr


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"this lebowski he called himself 'the dude'. now, 'dude', that's a name no one would self-apply where i come from but there was a lot about the dude that didn't make sense to me...."--the Stranger


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OfflineKonnrade
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Re: Was this Biggie vid before the trade tower disaster? [Re: Psychedelics]
    #5721873 - 06/07/06 02:51 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

there was a failed attempt to bomb one of the towers in the 90's. They parked a van with a bomb in it underneath the tower. It did jack shit except make a lot of smoke.


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Offlinecybrbeast
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Re: Was this Biggie vid before the trade tower disaster? [Re: Konnrade]
    #5721892 - 06/07/06 03:04 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Konnrade said:
It did jack shit except make a lot of smoke.




Uhm.. it did kill six people and injure a thousand more



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OfflineKonnrade
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Re: Was this Biggie vid before the trade tower disaster? [Re: cybrbeast]
    #5721899 - 06/07/06 03:08 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Meh, comparatively jack shit... bad day yes, bad day compared to when they flew planes into the towers, no.


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Offlinecybrbeast
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Re: Was this Biggie vid before the trade tower disaster? [Re: Konnrade]
    #5721904 - 06/07/06 03:12 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Well comparatively WTC is nothing compared to the Dresden, Tokyo and Hiroshima bombings which I also consider terrorism.

Still, a life cut short is a life cut short and it sucks.


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OfflineKonnrade
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Re: Was this Biggie vid before the trade tower disaster? [Re: cybrbeast]
    #5721909 - 06/07/06 03:19 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

... how was hiroshima terrorism? Japan started the damn war :confused:

I suppose it could be considered a war crime to kill so many civilians, but on the islands of japan, there really was no military target for a nuke that wouldn't have involved killing thousands of civilians.


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Offlinecybrbeast
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Re: Was this Biggie vid before the trade tower disaster? [Re: Konnrade]
    #5721917 - 06/07/06 03:29 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.



Targeting people so they lose support for their governments is terrorism. They could have nuked a mountain or an island, just to show the force.

Quote:


The Target Committee at Los Alamos on May 10–11, 1945, recommended Kyoto, Hiroshima, Yokohama and the arsenal at Kokura as possible targets. The committee rejected the use of the weapon against a strictly military objective because of the chance of missing a small target not surrounded by a larger urban area. The psychological effects on Japan were of great importance to the committee members.




Quote:


Some have claimed that the Japanese were already essentially defeated, and therefore use of the bombs was unnecessary. General Dwight D. Eisenhower so advised the Secretary of War, Henry L. Stimson, in July of 1945.[28] The highest-ranking officer in the Pacific Theater, General Douglas MacArthur, was not consulted beforehand but said afterward that he felt that there was no military justification for the bombings. The same opinion was expressed by Fleet Admiral William D. Leahy (the Chief of Staff to the President), General Carl Spaatz (commander of the U.S. Strategic Air Forces in the Pacific), and Brigadier General Carter Clarke (the military intelligence officer who prepared intercepted Japanese cables for U.S. officials);[28] Major General Curtis LeMay;[29] and Admiral Ernest King, U.S. Chief of Naval Operations, Undersecretary of the Navy Ralph A. Bard [30], and Fleet Admiral Chester W. Nimitz, Commander in Chief of the Pacific Fleet.[31]

Eisenhower wrote in his memoir The White House Years:

"In 1945 Secretary of War Stimson, visiting my headquarters in Germany, informed me that our government was preparing to drop an atomic bomb on Japan. I was one of those who felt that there were a number of cogent reasons to question the wisdom of such an act. During his recitation of the relevant facts, I had been conscious of a feeling of depression and so I voiced to him my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and secondly because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives."[32]

The United States Strategic Bombing Survey, after interviewing hundreds of Japanese civilian and military leaders after Japan surrendered, reported:

"Based on a detailed investigation of all the facts, and supported by the testimony of the surviving Japanese leaders involved, it is the Survey's opinion that certainly prior to 31 December 1945, and in all probability prior to 1 November 1945, Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war, and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated."





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InvisibleTheDude
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Re: Was this Biggie vid before the trade tower disaster? [Re: Konnrade]
    #5721918 - 06/07/06 03:34 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Konnrade said:
I suppose it could be considered a war crime to kill so many civilians, but on the islands of japan, there really was no military target for a nuke that wouldn't have involved killing thousands of civilians.




Well the entire point was to kill thousands and end the bullshit immediately. It is believed that the death toll from Hiroshima and Nagasaki is far less than the death toll that would have resulted from months of trench warfare. Not pretty either way you look at it.


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"this lebowski he called himself 'the dude'. now, 'dude', that's a name no one would self-apply where i come from but there was a lot about the dude that didn't make sense to me...."--the Stranger


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OfflinePithlit
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Re: Was this Biggie vid before the trade tower disaster? [Re: Konnrade]
    #5721923 - 06/07/06 03:42 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Konnrade said:
... how was hiroshima terrorism? Japan started the damn war :confused:

I suppose it could be considered a war crime to kill so many civilians, but on the islands of japan, there really was no military target for a nuke that wouldn't have involved killing thousands of civilians.




I think you can also say that America started the war with the middle east by invading their countries unlawfully, taking their goods and occupying everything.
Its not luike these guarillas got pissed off because the americans were sitting on their side of the ocean twiddling their thunbs.
If you argue like that then all the bombings haven´t been terroristic acts aswell!

For me Hiroshima and the others that were counted up were definitly terroristic acts by the gouverment because they went against civilins only, no military targets were hit in these operations (or only as a side effect) and the main goal was to scare the people of the bombed country.
The samme tactic these "terrorists" now apply to america aswell.
It is war, fought with uneven appliances but it is definitly a rightfully war and not some nonsense reactionistic actions of so called barbarians!


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OfflineKonnrade
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Re: Was this Biggie vid before the trade tower disaster? [Re: cybrbeast]
    #5721924 - 06/07/06 03:43 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

The Japanese weren't exactly playing by the rules either. They tortured, starved, abused, and murdered countless POW's. Many of them were herded into air raid shelters that they had been forced to build themselves, were doused with fuel, and burned alive.

Not to mention all of the horrible nastiness that Japan inflicted upon conquered people with it's military police state.

Of course, we should never have killed so many civilians, but I'm sure that the commander in chief felt he chose the lesser evil.
Quote:

Pithlit said:
Quote:

Konnrade said:
... how was hiroshima terrorism? Japan started the damn war :confused:

I suppose it could be considered a war crime to kill so many civilians, but on the islands of japan, there really was no military target for a nuke that wouldn't have involved killing thousands of civilians.




I think you can also say that America started the war with the middle east by invading their countries unlawfully, taking their goods and occupying everything.
Its not luike these guarillas got pissed off because the americans were sitting on their side of the ocean twiddling their thunbs.
If you argue like that then all the bombings haven´t been terroristic acts aswell!

For me Hiroshima and the others that were counted up were definitly terroristic acts by the gouverment because they went against civilins only, no military targets were hit in these operations (or only as a side effect) and the main goal was to scare the people of the bombed country.
The samme tactic these "terrorists" now apply to america aswell.
It is war, fought with uneven appliances but it is definitly a rightfully war and not some nonsense reactionistic actions of so called barbarians!




There were military targets in hiroshima and in nagasaki. The cities were chosen because of those targets.

There are many well-written books with the facts about the nuclear attack on Japan. The novel hiroshima is also a very good read, and gives an appreciation of the horrors of a nuclear attack.


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Invisibleeligal
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Re: Was this Biggie vid before the trade tower disaster? [Re: Konnrade]
    #5721932 - 06/07/06 03:50 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Konnrade said:
The Japanese weren't exactly playing by the rules either. They tortured, starved, abused, and murdered countless POW's. Many of them were herded into air raid shelters that they had been forced to build themselves, were doused with fuel, and burned alive.

Not to mention all of the horrible nastiness that Japan inflicted upon conquered people with it's military police state.

Of course, we should never have killed so many civilians, but I'm sure that the commander in chief felt he chose the lesser evil.





damn j*ps!!!  :mad:

They do make some damn good sushi though  :tongue2:




  :blueninja:


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InvisiblePapaverS
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Re: Was this Biggie vid before the trade tower disaster? [Re: TheDude]
    #5721933 - 06/07/06 03:51 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

TheDude said:
Not pretty either way you look at it.




World War Two was a hoax. It was all shot on a 1/72 scale model in my basement. If you look carefully, you can see my dog in some of the pictures...


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Invisibleeligal
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Re: Was this Biggie vid before the trade tower disaster? [Re: Papaver]
    #5721934 - 06/07/06 03:52 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

that wasnt in my history book...


then again I never read it :frown:


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Offlinecybrbeast
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Re: Was this Biggie vid before the trade tower disaster? [Re: Konnrade]
    #5721935 - 06/07/06 03:54 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Konnrade said:
The Japanese weren't exactly playing by the rules either. They tortured, starved, abused, and murdered countless POW's. Many of them were herded into air raid shelters that they had been forced to build themselves, were doused with fuel, and burned alive.

Not to mention all of the horrible nastiness that Japan inflicted upon conquered people with it's military police state.




In what way is this an argument for Americans to not play by the rules? There is also a thing as a moral high ground. Just because germany started a genocide didn't mean that American had to start one, and luckily they didn't.


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OfflineRoker
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Re: Was this Biggie vid before the trade tower disaster? [Re: Konnrade]
    #5721942 - 06/07/06 04:06 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

TheDude, you're a dick. Read the previous posts (previous means coming before). Dropping the bomb was a display of pure force meant as much for the russians as for the japanese. Japan was in the process of seeking a peace settlement at the time.

And Konnrade, you're a dick too. The Japanese didn't start the war, the yanks did by blockading essential oil supplies with the full knowledge that this would provoke a military reaction from Japan, and just to make sure it happened, they made sure that pearl harbour was full of old warships (not one of the six aircraft carriers though!). Bet they didn't teach you that at school.


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Offlinecybrbeast
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Re: Was this Biggie vid before the trade tower disaster? [Re: Roker]
    #5721944 - 06/07/06 04:09 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

You can disagree with people without resorting to flaming, and you should if you don't want to be banned from the Pub.


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OfflineKonnrade
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Re: Was this Biggie vid before the trade tower disaster? [Re: cybrbeast]
    #5721945 - 06/07/06 04:12 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Japan was ruthless, violent, and vastly unpredictable throughout the war.

The war in the pacific was the equivalent of fighting a cornered animal. While this may not justify nuking them, it does make it possible to understand why america was so desperate to end the war quickly. Japan was dragging everyone through the mud, and leaving a trail of blood in the process. Even when they knew they were likely to lose the war, their mindset was that they would shed as much blood as possible until there was a decisive loss.

You can't face that kind of enemy and not be extremely tempted to just end things with a couple of mushroom clouds. Add that to the knowledge that NOT nuking them would mean months of further war and many, many more americans dying in a battle that was merely an act of defense from an invasion. I can understand the decision to drop the A-bombs.

We've gotten so damn off-topic it's not even funny :lol:


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InvisiblePapaverS
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Re: Was this Biggie vid before the trade tower disaster? [Re: cybrbeast]
    #5721946 - 06/07/06 04:16 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

cybrbeast said:
You can disagree with people without resorting to flaming, and you should if you don't want to be banned from the Pub.




tru dat...

I can understand his passion, though. I still get pretty worked up about the Peloponnesian War; that's where it all went wrong you know. Damn that Alcibiades!


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Edited by Papaver (06/07/06 04:17 AM)


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Offlinecybrbeast
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Re: Was this Biggie vid before the trade tower disaster? [Re: Konnrade]
    #5721954 - 06/07/06 04:24 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Konnrade said:
You can't face that kind of enemy and not be extremely tempted to just end things with a couple of mushroom clouds. Add that to the knowledge that NOT nuking them would mean months of further war and many, many more americans dying in a battle that was merely an act of defense from an invasion. I can understand the decision to drop the A-bombs.




You can't be sure of that. Have you read the quote? The war might have been on the verge of ending anyway. Like Roker said it was probably more useful as a way of showing and intimidating the world by saying we have nukes!
The Manhattan program was started because there was a risk that Germany might develop these weapons, so they had to have them first. It was never meant to be used unless absolutely necessary.
Why couldn't America just have blocked of Japans sea and airspace? They could have surrounded the country, bombed the industry and waited it out, just like a siege.

Still whatever wrongs may have been done in the war I'm still very thankful to America for saving our asses from nazism, but on the other hand it would have saved a lot of lives if they had intevened earlier.


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Offlinecybrbeast
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Re: Was this Biggie vid before the trade tower disaster? [Re: Papaver]
    #5721956 - 06/07/06 04:27 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

So you were for the Spartans? Always pick the winning side, eh? Yay for Archidamus II.

:lol:


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InvisiblePapaverS
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Re: Was this Biggie vid before the trade tower disaster? [Re: cybrbeast]
    #5721969 - 06/07/06 04:39 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

No, I was for the Athenians...

Now, I may have forgotten some of the details, as it's been a long time (almost 2500 years), but it seems to me that Alcibiades was responsible for getting the Athenians back in the war for the wrong reasons, and then, because of politics, was exiled and then defected from Athens and went and helped Sparta defeat Athens!

The whole thing just seemed rotten. I wish I could say it was all shot on a 1/72 scale model in my basement... :wink:


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Offlinecybrbeast
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Re: Was this Biggie vid before the trade tower disaster? [Re: Papaver]
    #5721984 - 06/07/06 04:59 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

The Athenians deserved to be beaten by the superiour Spartans.
Several states including Athens formed a league against the Persians. Then Athens started to dominate the league and it became an athenian empire. Athens started to use all the league funds which they controlled on an island for themselves.
Then the Athenians started bugging the Spartans and sanctioned Megara. So the Spartans rose up and kicked their asses.

btw.
Have you read Mary Renaults books, 'The King Must Die' and 'The Bull From the Sea'? Really great books about the mythological hero Theseus. She kind of removes all the mythology from the story and makes it more realistic.


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InvisiblePapaverS
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Re: Was this Biggie vid before the trade tower disaster? [Re: cybrbeast]
    #5721990 - 06/07/06 05:12 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Don't get me wrong. I'm not in favor of all that the Athenians did, but as an artist who relies on the luxury of an affluent democracy for my monetary survival, I have to side with them... :wink:

I haven't read those. I'll have to check them out... :smile:


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Offlinecybrbeast
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Re: Was this Biggie vid before the trade tower disaster? [Re: Papaver]
    #5722003 - 06/07/06 05:23 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

An affluent theocracy might have been just as well for your monetary state, maybe even better. Quite a way to go off-topic  :grin:


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OfflineRoker
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Re: Was this Biggie vid before the trade tower disaster? [Re: cybrbeast]
    #5729682 - 06/09/06 04:56 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

my apologies to Thedude and Konrad.

But like I said in my post - read the previous posts there are relevant facts there that address the issues.

What you get taught about politics in school or on TV is seldom the truth. The truth is out there but you won't see it on FOX or CNN


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