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 michael_lifshitz
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 Feel trapped in material, useless desires. 
#5719078 - 06/06/06 02:00 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Over the last half year or so, I have been doing a lot of reading and studying of philosophy and new ways of looking at things. A common theme and one I agree with strongly, is the giving up of desires, and especially simple material, useless desires.
Now, I absolutely agree with these things, but I find it is hard for me to implement them, because I still gain so much satisfaction from these desires.
Take eating for instance. I am decently hungry right now. And, I just ate a snack. I will eat dinner in about 2.5 hours. Normally, I would just eat another snack right now. This would be indulgence, and unhealthy phsycially and spiritually. Why do I give in to this desire?
Because it is so physical, and because these material desires are the only thing I have really experienced.
Same goes for a lot of things I enjoy. I will do things that I shouldn't do, just because I enjoy them.
How do I fix this? Is it true that if you abstain from something for long enough the desire would leave? I don't see how it would.
Food is a perfect example, so let's continue talking about that.
I mean, like eating healthily. I don't want to eat healthy but always have a desire to eat junk food. I want to get rid of that desire and then eat healthy.
Is that not possible? Does one have to first force themselves to eat healthily and then slowly the desire for junk food will trickle away? Because I don't want to be in constant struggle with my desires, I want to actually get rid of them.
Thoughts?
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capliberty
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Re: Feel trapped in material, useless desires. [Re: michael_lifshitz]
#5719120 - 06/06/06 02:14 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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abstaining from food, does curb you appetite or cravings to a certain extent, I used to snack alot more than I do now, and I find it really no difference in my overall hunger, actually I seem to breath and sleep better
I'd say learn more about why you want to give up the desire, what gain can u get from it, just to do it because is sounds right is no motivation
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Fospher
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Re: Feel trapped in material, useless desires. [Re: michael_lifshitz]
#5719158 - 06/06/06 02:28 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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I completely connect with you on that.
These physical indulgences are just temptations of the flesh to degrade your spirit. These small whims are just the first level of the pyramid of altruism, but nontheless a requirement to surpass to climb higher. The bigger temptation you resist, the higher you will raise your level of the pyramid of awareness.
Deny a temptation of the flesh with your mind, and both will connect with your spirit. The bigger temptation, the more you profit.
However, I understand this myself, yet still often raid the fridge for snacks. My mind tricks myself that after that one snack, I will go back to work, and that one turns into one more until I've completely stuffed myself, and sitting down on my computer chair, indolently scrolling the shroomery. Indulgence can often be like a sharp pain, a whispering of demons, tempting you to slide down the pyramid back to square one.
What is the remedy to overcome the indulgence? Only your impeccable intent can overcome your impulse-driven decisions. Envisioning yourself as being higher on the pyramid than you already is the way to transcendence.
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ManianFH
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Re: Feel trapped in material, useless desires. [Re: michael_lifshitz]
#5719159 - 06/06/06 02:28 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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can you list some of the books you've been reading?
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notapillow said: "you are going about this endeavor all wrong. clear your mind of useless fear and concern. buy the ticket, take the ride, and all that.... "
ChrisWho said: "It's all about the journey, not the destination."
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 Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
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Re: Feel trapped in material, useless desires. [Re: michael_lifshitz]
#5719178 - 06/06/06 02:33 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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It seems to me that desires are part of being embodied, and that it makes more sense to increase our conscious of the motivations behind our behavior, than to attempt to eliminate desires.
To use your example of desiring junk food:
When I have a strong craving for junk food, I have many behavioral choices available to me. If my consciousness is limited, I may believe that I have only one choice: get some junk food, now! With a little more consciousness, I might believe that I have two choices: get junk food or deny myself junk food (and feel deprived.)
When I take another step beyond YES or NO, I can accept the craving, realize that it is part of my humanity, and proceed to consider the potential consequences of my "yes" or "no." If I eat something very sugary, I will experience a burst of frenetic energy, followed by a crash into lethargy and irritability. I know this is my body's reaction to sugar, so I can predict this consequence with some accuracy. Additionally, many members of my family have dental problems, struggle with obesity, and have developed diabetes in middle age, so I may put myself at serious risk by continually indulging in sugary treats.
I can ask myself "do I accept this consequence?" If not, it would be irrational to choose to eat sugary junk food. If I accept the consequence, then I choose the junky snack with full responsibility.
After I experience negative consequences consciously, I begin to feel the beginnings of cognitive dissonance. My actions are not aligned with my values and goals, and it becomes increasingly uncomfortable to continue making the same choices.
This, IMO, is the only balanced and respectful way to alter the behavioral choices we make in response to our desires.
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leery11
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Re: Feel trapped in material, useless desires. [Re: ManianFH]
#5719190 - 06/06/06 02:39 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Eating healthy comes from the realizatoin that any other way of eating is suicide.
Now I'm guessing you're not obese, probably not overweight, and probably pretty young. But go look at people in their 30s that are already overweight and develop health problems.
The thing about food is, it's supposed to keep you alive, but it's the number 1ish killer of Americans! Food, rather than a tool of survival, is a tool of suicide.
Do you understand this? If you do or if you don't, either way, think long and hard about it.
Now the Buddha when he left palace life became an ascetic and hardly ate anything for a very long period of time. Ultimately he realized the err of his ways and developed the middle path.
You do not have to punish yourself nor do you have to completely abstain from junk food in order to be a spiritual person. But you know what? The key is moderation.
Now frankly I will tell you since I've been revising my deit that food really does fuck with your mind more than you could ever think possible... so personally I would recommend just cut it out and change your diet real quickly..... because me well I became a vegetarian recently for moral reasons.... and I've been cutting back on sweets too, but I can still tell the merits and demerits of bad eating.
I had a bowl of cereal today, 3-4 grapes... and I'm about to eat some spinach lasagna. Fatty and not so good for me, is it? But I'm hungry.
Just listen to your body dude. I would probably eat junk food only 3-4 times a week total. For instance maybe if you have spent a long period of time eating healthy, on a relaxing day you can enjoy an ice cream sundae or something.
Ultimately Buddhism teaches that the best way to spirituality is the middle way, the one where you acknowladge your limitations, keep your desires in check, but do not punish yourself by cutting out what you NEED.
So cut out the junk, not necessarily completely... but cut it out as much as you can. Eat lots of fruit. And maybe a fast would be good for you. For about 3 days straight eat nothing but fruit... or a week even. It's hard to make it past 2 days for me really. But the goal ultimately is to only change because you realize the merits of changing and see no other possibility as valid.
You asked, can I wipe desire out by cutting it off completely? Well yes and no. No because you live in a society that is constantly trying to sell you junkfood, and your enjoyment of junk is very strong. Yes in that it is a good way of going about things if you really want to.
I would recommend a light fruit and water only fast for a few days for you to get in line with what hunger really is, and how your body responds to the act of eating.
Ultimately you don't have to never eat sweets again, you just don't eat them as much. See if you can spend 10 minutes eating a chocolate and savoring it completely [pretend like you're stoned]. It is more rewarding than spending 10 minutes eating 20 chocolates.
This thread might be helpful
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/5704185/an/0/page/2
and frankly you should be worrying more about what you feed your mind.
if you spend lots of time in meditation daily you will gradually correct your problems because of the new perspective gained.
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I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo! ....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human...... Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!
Edited by leery11 (06/06/06 02:43 PM)
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michael_lifshitz
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Re: Feel trapped in material, useless desires. [Re: Veritas]
#5719194 - 06/06/06 02:41 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Thank you everyone.
Also, about what I have been reading, there is a lot of stuff, too much to really list, but some good authors I have checked out recently are Alan Watts, Carlos Castaneda, Ram Dass, Eckhart Tolle etc. All the classics.
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michael_lifshitz
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Re: Feel trapped in material, useless desires. [Re: michael_lifshitz]
#5719208 - 06/06/06 02:45 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Oh I missed your post leery.
Thanks for the advice, a lot of it rang very true for me, and I am excited to try and see how things go.
I have been planning a fast ever since Icelander's thread (about a week ago  ), and will certainly be doing one at some point when circumstance is more beneficial, which will be in a couple of weeks.
Also, I was curious as to how you deduced that I was not overweight or old, because that is true. Just curious what led you to the conclusion.
Thanks again.
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Telepylus
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Re: Feel trapped in material, useless desires. [Re: Veritas]
#5719251 - 06/06/06 02:55 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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don't confuse desire with passion.
or let's redefine the words.
God wants you to be useful.
Being useful isn't a personal desire, it is a passion that exists in those that respect their own life.
Your body is breathing and circulating blood and food to fuel you so that you can be useful.
personal desires are not useful because it is not our purpose in life to be personal and individual and seperate or unique or apart.
society and family is a co-dependent relationship.
if you change the diapers, i'll supply the food.
she can cook it, and he can fetch the water.
we are all trapped in the material, it is our duty to be.
being seperated from the whole is the trap to avoid.
you won't find pure wholesomeness in people or objects
but once you find it in yourself, then it is found within everything you touch and everyone you see.
the cure for desire, or anything, is love.
for love you can control your food, you can quit smoking, you can do anything. and if you think you can't it's just because you dont' know what love is yet.
like the mother who quits drugs for her newborn infant.
or the father who goes without food so that his child may eat.
the power of love is the ONLY remedy.
and love isn't desire, it's passion for Life.
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Law of Love
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leery11
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Re: Feel trapped in material, useless desires. [Re: michael_lifshitz]
#5719302 - 06/06/06 03:05 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
michael_lifshitz said:
Also, I was curious as to how you deduced that I was not overweight or old, because that is true. Just curious what led you to the conclusion.
Thanks again.
psychic powers!!!!!!!!!!!!    
I don't know, just common sense I guess. I don't know that many overweight mushroom users... I knew one but he was in the process of doing tons of walking and losing tons of weight and getting healthy.... then again how many mushroom users do I know? 2 ? (3 actually)
It just made sense to me, it was a safe gamble... I didn't "know" per se but at the same time I figured if I said so I would be right. Kind of like when you can lead a person to say something because you imagine them saying and then the next you thing you say you imagine will elicit the imagined response?
I just figured though..... the psychedelic journeymen are usually keen on good health, and young, and therefore haven't had a chance to rack up lots of body fat.
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I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo! ....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human...... Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!
Edited by leery11 (06/06/06 03:05 PM)
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soulcircus
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Re: Feel trapped in material, useless desires. *DELETED* [Re: Telepylus]
#5719303 - 06/06/06 03:05 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Post deleted by soulcircusReason for deletion: .
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michael_lifshitz
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Re: Feel trapped in material, useless desires. [Re: soulcircus]
#5719355 - 06/06/06 03:14 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Good plan, soulcircus.
I think I will go on a short fast, a couple days, and then go for at least a week eating only a perfect diet. Water, pure fruit juice, frutis, vegetables, lean meats. And see how I feel.
If I can resolve to do that, I am quite confident I could change around all my eating habbits.
Solutions like that I guess are what I need. Just kick starts to getting rid of desires and living better.
Meditation is another example.
Since I don't get effects from it yet, I will meditate for 20 minutes and not feel anything, and then kind of give up on it for a month, then try again. I need to stick to it, but it's hard when I am not getting immediate rewards.
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Deviate
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Re: Feel trapped in material, useless desires. [Re: michael_lifshitz]
#5719454 - 06/06/06 03:43 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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i've found that as i continue with my daily routine of prayer and meditation, these desires naturally fall away. i dont like to force myself not to do things unless its necessary. for example, i used to spend too much time on the internet and i had to force myself to stop. after a short time the desire went away. so forcing yourself to stop something can work also.
Edited by Deviate (06/06/06 03:43 PM)
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