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Sinbad
Living TheMoment


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Taking Kindess For Weakness
#5718394 - 06/06/06 10:02 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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In my experience, kindness can only been taken for weakness if it is based upon sympathy and not compassion. Kindness based upon sympathy is riddled with problems as your view is based upon a subject object duality that implies a hierarchy of one person looking down upon another.
Kindness based upon compassion however can be free from such problems as the inherent wisdom of a compassionate mind allows space for a view to arise that is truly equal and not limited by subject object dualities.
Sympathy can easily be taken advantage of and leaves the gateway open for all kinds of problems with others to arise. If you leave the front door of your house open, it is not difficult for a theif to enter and steal all that is valuable inside.
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Edited by Sinbad (06/06/06 10:30 AM)
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Icelander
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Re: Taking Kindess For Weakness [Re: Sinbad]
#5718424 - 06/06/06 10:17 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Yup!
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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capliberty
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Re: Taking Kindess For Weakness [Re: Icelander]
#5718439 - 06/06/06 10:23 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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one more correlation in the bag; thx
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kotik
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Re: Taking Kindess For Weakness [Re: Sinbad]
#5718443 - 06/06/06 10:26 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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you know, sometimes i get sick of the constant talk of duality and blah blah blah around here.
but as for this particular subject, 
i can't help but agree. I equate sympathy/compassion as donating money to charities vs being an active member in helping those in need.
-------------------- No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.
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gettinjiggywithit
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Re: Taking Kindess For Weakness [Re: Sinbad]
#5718620 - 06/06/06 11:33 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Indeed, kindness given out of sympathy is weak because it is falsely generated out of a sense of guilt obligation, or a sense of doing the PC thing.
Kindness given out of the warmth of your heart, because you just feel good to give it, is quite strong and powerful.
Sinbad, what sort of valuables are you talking about that people can steal if you leave your proverbial doors unlocked?
Run a play by play for me.
Who and how can someone steal the value of the love in my heart, soul and spirit that just is? Say , I leave the door open to my heart. How can someone steal the love within it when it's an intangible that just keeps coming and multiplying from out of no where?
The only way for it to keep coming in and multiplying from out of nowhere is to keep the door to it open. Once you shut and lock that puppy up, it grows empty.
The sad part is, many people move to shut and lock it up , after they believe they have had something stolen from it (feel betrayed in love and become untrusting). They lock it up before it even got a chance to refill some, which would keep them from deciding to lock it up and they can become really jaded after that.
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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redgreenvines
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Re: Taking Kindess For Weakness [Re: Sinbad]
#5718677 - 06/06/06 11:55 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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a) what is wrong with weakness? & more importantly b) what is wrong with sympathy?
both empathy and sympathy are natural responses to real situations. Compassion on the other hand is an ideal imposed by the rational mind onto the unruly habits of the psyche as a practice. when the practice of compassion works, you can expect more natural empathy and more natural sympathy.
at this stage in your life you are learning practice, you now need to respect the equal spirit in those who have dispensed with such practice as well as with those who don't yet know they would benefit from it.
i.e. try not to be a meditation snob. it is great that you have taken some steps. this does not make you better than others. I see myself in you a lot.
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Sinbad
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Ok, you want an example. A freind of mine allowed a crack head to stay in his house out of a sense of sympathy. Needless to say he realized that his actions were not in accord with reality when he got robbed.
Sympathy became an obstacle for him to both wisdom and compassion. Wisdom as to know how to act appropriately, and compassion to carry out that action with the correct intention.
Sympathy makes you blind to genuine wisdom, and can cause alot of problems for you with your actions. Its a very dangerous thing that people can take advantage of to get something from you that they need, emotionally as well as on the physical level. Its dangerous becuase it leaves you open to emotional manipulation.
People who exhibit victim mentality characteristics are the most likely to take advantage of the kindness of others as the lowly status can easily be used to get what they want.
For exmaple, using puppy dog eyes when upset, can get a person the kind of comfort, support and genrosity that can be taken advatnge of. The most compassionate thing to do for that person is usually to give them a metaphorical kick up the backside.
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Edited by Sinbad (06/06/06 12:37 PM)
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Icelander
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Re: Taking Kindess For Weakness [Re: redgreenvines]
#5718711 - 06/06/06 12:04 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: a) what is wrong with weakness? & more importantly b) what is wrong with sympathy?
both empathy and sympathy are natural responses to real situations. Compassion on the other hand is an ideal imposed by the rational mind onto the unruly habits of the psyche as a practice. when the practice of compassion works, you can expect more natural empathy and more natural sympathy.
at this stage in your life you are learning practice, you now need to respect the equal spirit in those who have dispensed with such practice as well as with those who don't yet know they would benefit from it.
i.e. try not to be a meditation snob. it is great that you have taken some steps. this does not make you better than others. I see myself in you a lot.
I equate empathy and compassion. I have little use for sympathy.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


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Re: Taking Kindess For Weakness [Re: Sinbad]
#5718732 - 06/06/06 12:11 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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look again at how your friend became divested by the crack head. there is still lots to learn from his selflessness. stupid yes, but he makes significant personal progress in opening his tent to a stranger. it is very sad that the stranger hurt him. I hope he was not hurt much.
you don't grow by standing still, and one person's lesson may look nothing like your own. I think your friend becomes more strong by being open, and may be more careful about some things in the future.
on the otherhand crackheads are notoriously sneaky.
I let one stay the night and shamed him into returning the money for the kids food shopping that he managed to steal the moment my eyes were averted. we had once shared a line of that nasty white I could have known better.
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Sinbad
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Re: Taking Kindess For Weakness [Re: redgreenvines]
#5718800 - 06/06/06 12:34 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: a) what is wrong with weakness? & more importantly b) what is wrong with sympathy?
both empathy and sympathy are natural responses to real situations.
Compassion on the other hand is an ideal imposed by the rational mind onto the unruly habits of the psyche as a practice. when the practice of compassion works, you can expect more natural empathy and more natural sympathy.
at this stage in your life you are learning practice, you now need to respect the equal spirit in those who have dispensed with such practice as well as with those who don't yet know they would benefit from it.
i.e. try not to be a meditation snob. it is great that you have taken some steps. this does not make you better than others. I see myself in you a lot.
I already explained why sympathy is weak and what is wrong with it.
Why not try and refute instead of asking questions i have already answered? 
Compassion is not an ideal imposed upon anything. Unlike sympathy, compassion is not weak. It is the strength that arises out of seeing the true nature of suffering in the world. Compassion allows us to bear witness to suffering, it allows us to name injustice without hesitation, and to act with all the skill at our disposal. Compassion is therefore IMO the very definition of the highest scope of motivation.
P.S The patronising tone of your post is quite evident. In the future please refrain from assuming you know who i am, or indeed what "stage" i am at in my life. If you assume you know nothing you can never go wrong.
Edited by Sinbad (06/06/06 12:41 PM)
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Icelander
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Re: Taking Kindess For Weakness [Re: Sinbad]
#5718853 - 06/06/06 12:45 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I concur with you on this one Sinbad. (main thread and not your spat with Red. )
Or as Gomp would say. Sin bad - bad sin.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (06/06/06 12:50 PM)
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dorkus
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Re: Taking Kindess For Weakness [Re: Sinbad]
#5718859 - 06/06/06 12:47 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I would be complimented by the phrase "I see myself in you a lot." That was surely a heartfelt compliment, don't you think?
Sorry to intervene. My mind is restless today.
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Telepylus
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Re: Taking Kindess For Weakness [Re: dorkus]
#5718888 - 06/06/06 12:55 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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confused people who have no experience with true kindness, they will take it as weakness yes. but anyone who has actually encountered true kindness will not take it for weakness.
Kindness is honest and good and true. The honest truth will always terrify the dishonest at first. Much like a doctor examining a childs broken arm, so that he can set the bone to heal the boy.
So then kindness isn't confused for weakness now, but it's confused as something unkind and mean even.
If the boy scream, no! don't touch my arm! is it compassion to leave him be then? he will be permanently maimed without your compassion and kindness to enter the wound and heal it.
kindness can be very cruel for those who desperately need to face it
is it kind to blow smoke up someones ass and tell them all the things they want to hear, rather than what they need to hear, like "hey, you got booger on your face"
it is weak to be kind if you think being kind means neglecting the truth and honesty. in my village i think that is the common definition of kindess, lol, lying basically, and blowing smoke up your neighbors ass. lol
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dorkus
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Re: Taking Kindess For Weakness [Re: Telepylus]
#5718966 - 06/06/06 01:16 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Kindness
Before you know what kindness really is you must lose things, feel the future dissolve in a moment like salt in a weakened broth.
What you held in your hand, what you counted and carefully saved, all this must go so you know how desolate the landscape can be between the regions of kindness.
How you ride and ride thinking the bus will never stop, the passengers eating maize and chicken will stare out the window forever.
Before you learn the tender gravity of kindness, you must travel where the Indian in a white poncho lies dead by the side of the road.
You must see how this could be you, how he too was someone who journeyed through the night with plans and the simple breath that kept him alive.
Before you know kindness as the deepest thing inside, you must know sorrow as the other deepest thing.
You must wake up with sorrow.
You must speak to it till your voice catches the thread of all sorrows and you see the size of the cloth.
Then it is only kindness that makes sense anymore, only kindness that ties your shoes and sends you out into the day to mail letters and purchase bread, only kindness that raises its head from the crowd of the world to say it is I you have been looking for, and then goes with you every where like a shadow or a friend.
Naomi Shihab Nye
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


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Re: Taking Kindess For Weakness [Re: Sinbad]
#5718996 - 06/06/06 01:24 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I understand all of that. If you can't afford to have anything robbed from your home, or emotional being, then, I can see why some wouldn't let someone other then themselves into it.
That gets lonely though. People start to go crazy when they are in mental, emotional or physical isolation.
I think the REAL internal values of life and existence are the things we have free, unlimited access to.
I was thinking along the lines of "The Best Things In Life Are Free".
Take some time, to review what you are saying here and contemplate on something Jesus said, " It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle then for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.
When we shut down from giving and sharing our wealth and or become over protective and greedy with it, get into withholding patterns, we become ugly human beings. Those are fear filled states to be in, and when fear filled we are in a proverbial hell.
And there is another saying to contemplate.
If someone can take something from you, then , it was never really yours or belonged to you anyway. I like contemplating on that one even better when I feel "robbed".
Contemplate until you get to the place where you are thinking and seeing, all of this stuff just blew out from the big bang and who really owns any of it?
Anyway, back to the general topic-
Think of a time when you felt really at a loss, devastated or were suffering. Did anyone who had no ability to relate or understand by having been there themselves, "feeling sympathetic for your plight", really change anything or make it much better?
It doesn't for me and that's why I think it's weak. It doesn't have the power to change anything to the better for me.
Someone showing me empathy (fellow feeling, because they have been there) helps a little to know, I am not alone in knowing what its like. Still doesn't change much other then knowing, others were able to pull out of it. Empathizers give us hope for a better day, some power to move things there.
Compassion coming from another has about the same impact as empathy does on me.
Where the big power to create change comes from for me, is when, I apply compassion to myself from myself.
Compassion is this wonderful energy that seeks to understand. When we understand, we drop condemning judgments, and when we drop those, forgiveness becomes easy. In that moment we have freed up wealth of power that was tied up in the confusion of misunderstanding, locked up from our own selves through condemning judgments, and it becomes free for our use again, giving us the power to rise again and overcome.
That's how I experience compassion applied to be more powerful then sympathy applied.
Applying sympathy to the self is the equivalent of a "whoa is me" pity party. Sure, its a self indulgent act and indulging the self feels good. However, when at the banquet table of life, and enjoying stuffing your face during a self indulgent pity party, why choose the sludge at the bottom of the sewer to stuff yourself with, when you can be enjoying baked Alaska?
I don't begrudge anyone indulging in a pity party. At least they know, they should be feeling good and seek to do something that feels good. They are feeding themselves attention and energy and thats why it feels good.
Look at the quality of food they serves themselves at the party though
I am such a looser, nothing goes right for me, my life sucks, the world is cruel, I always fuck everything up, I'll never get it right, life isn't fair, I hate myself, fuck everyone, fuck everything, I want to die. - sewer sludge being served at the party.
The least they can do is serve up a more palatable dish to self indulge in while partying in tears
I can win for myself at this someday. Things will start to go right for me, when I pull myself up and begin again. My life has the potential for much good and their are nice people and happenings out there. And I do get some things right. No one ever promised or guaranteed life would be fair so why do I think it should be. And why do I think I am the only one who looses stuff and makes mistakes. Every body does and has. What makes me think I am the only human entitled to never experience personal loss. Everyone does. So I will love myself, love everyone, love everything, I want to live!!!!!!!
 
Now, THATS how you throw yourself a self indulgent pity party! 
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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DoctorJ


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Re: Taking Kindess For Weakness [Re: Sinbad]
#5719016 - 06/06/06 01:28 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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kindness in the face of evil is the Supreme Power. Nothing can beat a truly good person, though they may be bankrupted, abused, their bodies destroyed... People like that never truly perish, for they are God's favorites, and they always get their reward in the end.
Often in this life, I have bent over backwards to help others, even those who hate and try to hurt me. Many people observe this behavior and say: "What a wuss." I have learned to ignore their opinions, because people like that don't really know shit. They get caught up in the whole material drama and don't realize that there is more to life than earthly gains. I'll take the infinite wealth of the Spirit over the finite wealth of the material plane any day, thank you very much. I'm not the type to confuse iron pyrite with real gold.
Anyway, to those who mistake kindness for weakness, I say this: Stop pointing at others and laughing. The only thing people like that should laugh at is themselves, for being so wrong. 
And to those who requite injury with kindness, I say: I'm right there with you brother. You are not alone, and always remember that there is a light at the end of the tunnel. Though your earthly plate may often be empty, your true riches await you in Heaven. So don't give up hope, and keep up the good fight! For light will one day triumph over darkness in this world. It is inevitable!
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redgreenvines
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Re: Taking Kindess For Weakness [Re: Sinbad]
#5719894 - 06/06/06 05:41 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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notwithstanding the whole idea of mistakenly becoming a bleeding heart liberal, which your friend might have actually been dabbling in(, that wrong headed airy fairy approach to political correcteness which nevers seems right except over crumpets and tea).
& notwithstanding your well groomed cynicism,
the act of kindness and gentleness is the expression of all you are learning about buddhism.
quibbling about the terms compassion and sympathy and empaty are like arguing about angels on pin heads. & the part about patronizing is completely a red herring:
ignore it or use it positively is what I am saying. i.e. build your light instead of glowering in anger and disdain.
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Telepylus
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Re: Taking Kindess For Weakness [Re: redgreenvines]
#5720198 - 06/06/06 06:52 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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lol, this is fun... i totally agree with you redgreenvines
except kindness and gentleness is not an act
it's the expression of a pure flow of honest virtue witnessed by both the giver & receiver one we have little control over only our mindfulness of what is true over false
like a man who might help an elderly lady across the street or smile at a baby or rush into a burning house or save a stranger from drowning
a superhero can act kind or gentle but we just kinda happen upon it, like kind fresh water happens upon the gentle earth to create an area for a garden
i'm just being silly and can't stop writing because i'm stoned.
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Sinbad
Living TheMoment


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Re: Taking Kindess For Weakness [Re: redgreenvines]
#5720227 - 06/06/06 07:02 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: notwithstanding the whole idea of mistakenly becoming a bleeding heart liberal, which your friend might have actually been dabbling in(, that wrong headed airy fairy approach to political correcteness which nevers seems right except over crumpets and tea).
& notwithstanding your well groomed cynicism,
the act of kindness and gentleness is the expression of all you are learning about buddhism.
quibbling about the terms compassion and sympathy and empaty are like arguing about angels on pin heads. & the part about patronizing is completely a red herring:
ignore it or use it positively is what I am saying. i.e. build your light instead of glowering in anger and disdain.
Distinguishing different expressions is absolutely necessary when considering the topic of compassion. Sympathy, empathy and compassion are three different ways of expressing kindness that should not be confused with one another, hence the need for clarity. This is no matter of quibbling, as it is crucial to how one lives and expresses oneself in this world. If you think that these terms are somehow arbitrary, or somehow insignificant, than you have overlooked something very important indeed.
There is only one red herring around here red, and its your POV thats starting to smell fishy.
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Edited by Sinbad (06/06/06 07:18 PM)
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Icelander
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Re: Taking Kindess For Weakness [Re: Sinbad]
#5720241 - 06/06/06 07:07 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Once again I agree. (not the part where you and Red are squabbling )
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Sinbad
Living TheMoment


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Re: Taking Kindess For Weakness [Re: dorkus]
#5720316 - 06/06/06 07:27 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
dr_mandelbrot said: I would be complimented by the phrase "I see myself in you a lot." That was surely a heartfelt compliment, don't you think?
Sorry to intervene. My mind is restless today.
I do not respond to compliments sympathetically! Red will feel my wrathful compassion descend upon his head of fishy eyes!
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dorkus
don't look back
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Re: Taking Kindess For Weakness [Re: Sinbad]
#5720559 - 06/06/06 08:32 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Maybe it is that complicated. I like to simplify.
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Sinbad
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Re: Taking Kindess For Weakness [Re: dorkus]
#5720584 - 06/06/06 08:37 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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What do you find complicated?
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fresh313
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Re: Taking Kindess For Weakness [Re: redgreenvines]
#5720988 - 06/06/06 10:14 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
on the otherhand crackheads are notoriously sneaky.
they could steal one of your eyes without you seeing
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wilshire
free radical


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Re: Taking Kindess For Weakness [Re: Sinbad]
#5721321 - 06/06/06 11:49 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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man... gimme yo fruit cocktail.
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Sinbad
Living TheMoment


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Re: Taking Kindess For Weakness [Re: wilshire]
#5721742 - 06/07/06 01:55 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Sure man, if you need some fruity refreshment, go ahead, help ureself.
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Edited by Sinbad (06/07/06 02:04 AM)
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