|
Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique
#5715401 - 06/05/06 03:01 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Suicide Bombers hold arbitrary beliefs that cannot be verified or falsified. They hold these beliefs with such fervor, that they are blinded to all alternatives. They never admit even the possibility that they may be wrong and stick to their beliefs in the face of evidence contradicting them. If the contradictory evidence is persuasive, the Suicide Bomber resorts to questioning the integrity of the person presenting the evidence rather than addressing the evidence directly.
When Suicide Bombers are cornered in debate, they make recourse to invisible beings who happen to hold the same principles and ideals they do. Since these beings cannot be seen, heard, or questioned, it is not possible to show the Suicide Bomber that he is wrong even if it is the case that he actually IS wrong.
When a Suicide Bomber is asked a hypothetical question he knows will draw out and highlight faults, omissions, and contradictions in his beliefs, he refuses to answer and verbally attacks the questioner rather than address the question.
Suicide Bombers do not seek to update their beliefs or to find Truth; they stagnate and seek only to support their bygone conclusions. They spin new information to make it 'fit' into their world view rather than treat the information neutrally, allowing it to fit or not fit on its own. If the information can be spun enough to fit, it's kept. Otherwise, it's summarily discarded without being considered.
When other types of mystics tell the Suicide Bomber he is wrong and try to explain why, the Suicide Bomber tells the other types of mystics that it is THEY who are wrong and for the exact same reasons!
Suicide Bombers are closed and rigid of thought. They speak in absolutes rather than in propositions: "this is how it is" rather than "this is how it appears to be" or "I am not wrong" rather than "I don't think I'm wrong".
So, Suicide Bombers:
-make up things -decide those made up things are real -refuse to consider anything that undermines their made up things -spin or discard new information to support their made up things -act according to those made up things as if they were real, all the while avoiding everything that might contradict them.
Now replace Suicide Bombers above with the following and see how it works: astrologer, priest, psychic, telekineticists, telepathists, remote viewer, clairvoyant, psychic surgeon, numerologist, Christian, pope, UFO caller, third-eye seer, santero, crystal wearer, 2012 nut, astral projector, spoon bender, levitator, George Bush...
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique [Re: Diploid]
#5715497 - 06/05/06 03:20 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
ouch!
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
MushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
|
Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique [Re: Diploid]
#5715709 - 06/05/06 04:16 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
|
Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
|
Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique [Re: Diploid]
#5715769 - 06/05/06 04:33 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics
Suicide bombers are not mystics, or at least none that I've heard of. Mystics draw their beliefs from direct experience of the divine. Suicide bombers and other fanatics draw their beliefs from the dogmatic teachings of others. If you want to criticize mystics, fine. But stop misusing the word.
--------------------
|
Redstorm
Prince of Bugs



Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 3 months, 10 days
|
Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique [Re: Diploid]
#5715789 - 06/05/06 04:37 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Suicide bombers and other terrorists do not let God define them; they attempt to define God according to their rigid belief system.
|
Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
|
Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique [Re: Redstorm]
#5715793 - 06/05/06 04:39 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
I should also point out that many if not most suicide bombers are motivated at least as much by socio-political forces as by religion.
--------------------
|
Springs
Mine(d)


Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 330
Loc: sky hi
Last seen: 11 years, 5 months
|
Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique [Re: Silversoul]
#5715876 - 06/05/06 05:07 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
I tried, it doesnt work. Its not near the same:
astrologers are closed and rigid of thought. They speak in absolutes rather than in propositions: "this is how it is" rather than "this is how it appears to be" or "I am not wrong" rather than "I don't think I'm wrong".
clairvoyants are closed and rigid of thought. They speak in absolutes rather than in propositions: "this is how it is" rather than "this is how it appears to be" or "I am not wrong" rather than "I don't think I'm wrong".
third-eye seer's are closed and rigid of thought. They speak in absolutes rather than in propositions: "this is how it is" rather than "this is how it appears to be" or "I am not wrong" rather than "I don't think I'm wrong".
spoon benders are closed and rigid of thought. They speak in absolutes rather than in propositions: "this is how it is" rather than "this is how it appears to be" or "I am not wrong" rather than "I don't think I'm wrong".
Like redstorm said.
Only the individual can decide if they adhear to a set of beliefs rigid or not.
|
Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
|
Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique [Re: Springs]
#5715881 - 06/05/06 05:09 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Materialists are closed and rigid of thought. They speak in absolutes rather than in propositions: "this is how it is" rather than "this is how it appears to be" or "I am not wrong" rather than "I don't think I'm wrong".
There, that works. Sometimes. As much as any other belief, anyway.
--------------------
|
Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
|
Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique [Re: Silversoul]
#5715885 - 06/05/06 05:12 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Wait, now I've figured it out:
People I disagree with are closed and rigid of thought. They speak in absolutes rather than in propositions: "this is how it is" rather than "this is how it appears to be" or "I am not wrong" rather than "I don't think I'm wrong".
There, that's a system that works for anyone.
--------------------
|
Basilides
Servent ofWisdom


Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 7,059
Loc: Crown and Heart
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
|
Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique [Re: Diploid]
#5716032 - 06/05/06 06:04 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Don't forget to add somatics to the list. The Primacy of Existence can't be verified anymore than 72 virgins.
--------------------
    "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
|
gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
|
Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique [Re: Diploid]
#5716043 - 06/05/06 06:06 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Suicide bombers hold hate, fear and anger in their hearts and confusion in their minds.
Mystics work to clear all of that up and work to hold universal love, understanding, forgiveness and peace in their hearts and clarity of mind.
Take a look again at how mystics were the enemy of the church and religions heads that wanted to control people through hate , fear, dogma and confusion. The mystics were out to put a stop to that, so the church killed them when ever they found them.
:heart
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
|
Basilides
Servent ofWisdom


Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 7,059
Loc: Crown and Heart
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
|
Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
#5716064 - 06/05/06 06:12 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Drawing a string between suicide bombers and mystics is a bit below the belt on Diploid's part. Not to mention it's a massive stretch of so-called logic.
--------------------
    "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
|
Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
|
Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique [Re: Basilides]
#5716074 - 06/05/06 06:15 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Basilides said: Drawing a string between suicide bombers and mystics is a bit below the belt on Diploid's part. Not to mention it's a massive stretch of so-called logic.
It's a bit like saying "Dogs and Other Cats"
--------------------
|
MarkostheGnostic
Elder


Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 1 day
|
Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique [Re: Silversoul]
#5716432 - 06/05/06 08:00 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Silversoul said:
Quote:
Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics
Suicide bombers are not mystics, or at least none that I've heard of. Mystics draw their beliefs from direct experience of the divine. Suicide bombers and other fanatics draw their beliefs from the dogmatic teachings of others. If you want to criticize mystics, fine. But stop misusing the word.
Diploid has a long history here of misusing and misunderstanding the word 'mystic.' He applies the word to all manner of individuals whose practices exaggerate the 'mind' or 'psychic' aspect of our mind-body (psychosomatic) existence. This could be fortune tellers of various types, faith healers, those claiming paranormal abilities re: the Psi functions, and other various and sundry fringe elements.
True mystics from Plato to Plotinus, St. Paul to Meister Eckhardt, Ramana Maharshi to Eckhart Tolle - mystics in the best defined (by,say, Evelyn Underhill) quite escape Diploid. I suspect that Mr. Diploid Extraverts his Sensing function (as a personality type) to a degree which prevents much Introverted Intuition to operate in his psyche. This in no way is a judgement, but rather an observation of a personality type. We all have "inferior functions" according to the MBTI, and our growth and development concerns strengthening our inferior function (which we generally have much difficulty with). Extraverted Sensing types often excel in the hard sciences since the Thinking function is drawn to observable phenomenon in the physical world, and this seems to be Diploid's trip.
Denigrating our inferior function - whichever it may be - is a form of denial which attempts to cast our personality weakness into the Shadow. Like C.G. Jung, I am an INTP and although my Sensing function is well developed (I work with my hands a lot: carpentry, masonry, painting, decorating, etc.), my Feeling function is my inferior function. I avoid strong emotion, suppress it when it arises, and show reluctance to making emotional proclamations to my Lady . Actually, MDMA has been very helpful to me with my Feeling function. Oftentimes, psychedelics have helped individuals enhance their Intuitive function to a high degree, with a 'mystic vision' as a consequence. This, unfortunately is not always the case, and sometimes merely strengthens the predominating aspects of a given ego thereby reifying the pre-existing (and biased) typologically based world view. It is, as The Moody Blues once named an album, 'A Question of Balance.'
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
|
MushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
|
Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique [Re: Basilides]
#5716535 - 06/05/06 08:29 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
The Primacy of Existence can't be verified anymore than 72 virgins.
No foundationalism can be verified.
|
Basilides
Servent ofWisdom


Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 7,059
Loc: Crown and Heart
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
|
Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique [Re: MushmanTheManic]
#5716543 - 06/05/06 08:31 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
I think it's fairly obvious
--------------------
    "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
|
MushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
|
Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique [Re: Diploid]
#5716549 - 06/05/06 08:32 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Suicide Bombers are closed and rigid of thought. They speak in absolutes rather than in propositions: "this is how it is" rather than "this is how it appears to be" or "I am not wrong" rather than "I don't think I'm wrong".
Diploid appears to be closed and rigid of thought. It seems as if he's speaking in absolutes rather than propositions.
|
MushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
|
Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique [Re: Silversoul]
#5716565 - 06/05/06 08:36 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Mystics draw their beliefs from direct experience of the divine. Suicide bombers and other fanatics draw their beliefs from the dogmatic teachings of others.
Good point.
|
Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
|
Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique [Re: MushmanTheManic]
#5717089 - 06/05/06 10:10 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
MushmanTheManic said: It seems as if he's speaking in absolutes rather than propositions.
My thoughts exactly
--------------------
|
niteowl
GrandPaw


Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
Loc:
|
Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique [Re: Diploid]
#5717093 - 06/05/06 10:10 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Diploid said: Suicide Bombers are closed and rigid of thought. They speak in absolutes rather than in propositions: "this is how it is" rather than "this is how it appears to be" or "I am not wrong" rather than "I don't think I'm wrong".
So, Suicide Bombers:
-make up things -decide those made up things are real -refuse to consider anything that undermines their made up things -spin or discard new information to support their made up things -act according to those made up things as if they were real, all the while avoiding everything that might contradict them.
Replace Suicide Bombers with Humans.....and you have that statement right.
-------------------- Live for the moment you are in nowDon't be bogged down by your pastDon't be afraid of what lies in your future
|
Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#5719145 - 06/06/06 02:23 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Diploid has a long history here of misusing and misunderstanding the word 'mystic.'
Ask a hundred mystics to define the word, and they'll each make up a different definition, often contradicting each other. This is one of their biggest problems: they make things up.
Give me a definition used by most mystics, and I'll use it. Until then, mystics should clean their own house before they complain about my mess.
True mystics
No Scotsman is a thief. But I know a thieving Scotsman. Aye, he's not a true Scotsman.
-Mr. Diploid Extraverts his Sensing function -is a form of denial -and this seems to be Diploid's trip.
LMAO 
If the contradictory evidence is persuasive, the Suicide Bomber resorts to questioning the integrity of the person presenting the evidence rather than addressing the evidence directly.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
Edited by Diploid (06/06/06 03:50 PM)
|
Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
#5719161 - 06/06/06 02:29 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Suicide bombers hold hate, fear and anger in their hearts and confusion in their minds.
According to Suicide Bombers, they hold the love of God above all else in their hearts and blow themselves up to gain His favor.
You and the Suicide Bomber present opposing arguments supported by exactly zero evidence. How am I to know which is right?
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique [Re: Silversoul]
#5719187 - 06/06/06 02:37 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Mystics draw their beliefs from direct experience of the divine.
From an interview with a Suicide Bomber whose bomb failed to explode:
"It’s as if a very high, impenetrable wall separated you from Paradise or Hell," he said. "Allah has promised one or the other to his creatures. So, by pressing the detonator, you can immediately open the door to Paradise — it is the shortest path to Heaven."
"The power of the spirit pulls us upward, while the power of material things pulls us downward," he said.
Sounds like a direct experience of the divine (or self-delusion) to me. Just like every other mystic.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
|
Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique [Re: Diploid]
#5719196 - 06/06/06 02:42 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Diploid said: Diploid has a long history here of misusing and misunderstanding the word 'mystic.'
Ask a hundred mystics to define the word, and they'll each make up a different definition, often contradicting each other. This is one of their biggest problems: they make things up.
Give me a definition used by most mystics, and I'll use it. Until then, mystics should clean their own house before they complain about my mess.
True mystics
No Scotsman is a thief. But I know a thieving Scotsman. Aye, he's not a true Scotsman.
Sorry man, but you're not getting out of it that easily. We've all been pretty clear on what a mystic is: It's someone who has direct experience/access to the divine(as opposed to someone who follows the dogmas of others). This has been explained to you before.
--------------------
|
Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique [Re: Silversoul]
#5719206 - 06/06/06 02:45 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
We've all been pretty clear on what a mystic is: It's someone who has direct experience/access to the divine
Did you not read the excerpt of a Suicide Bomber's "direct experience of the divine"? Or are you calling him a liar when he claims to know God's wishes for him?
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
|
Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique [Re: Diploid]
#5719221 - 06/06/06 02:50 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Diploid said: We've all been pretty clear on what a mystic is: It's someone who has direct experience/access to the divine
Did you not read the excerpt of a Suicide Bomber's "direct experience of the divine"? Or are you calling him a liar when he claims to know God's wishes for him?
Even if some suicide bombers claim to have mystical experiences, that does not mean that suicide bombers as a group can be classified as mystics. Mysticism is certainly not a defining feature of suicide bombers.
--------------------
|
gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
|
Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique [Re: Diploid]
#5719271 - 06/06/06 03:00 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Diploid, I can appreciate the frustration you seem to be in about people YOU label mystics, not being able to even give the same definition of what one is and that they may at times even come up contradictory.
You see that as one of the biggest faults or problems with "mysticism".
Its the biggest BEAUTY of it.
Its like that because there is no set rule to follow which defines one or ones way. That means, there is also NO DOGMA to it. Mysticism, in large part, is about a continuation of liberation and freedom, through discovery. Mystics would be anyone, who keep exploring, uncovering and discovering new truths. With that, they shed and let go of those previously held, with ease.
There is no rule book for what makes a mystic a mystic. There is no rule book for how to become a mystic. There is no rule book for what makes a right mystical practice and a wrong mystical practice.
In essence, there really is No such thing as a mystic that can be defined. That's why I don't understand why people bother with labeling others with the word.
The definition of the word itself is a mystery to be unraveled.
However, Jew, Muslim, Catholic, what have you has a book of definitions and rules and in them that are fixed and set. They don't change or expand with time and new discovery and information. You will find your set dogma. You're right, some mystics make up life and the truth for themselves, from out of the truth of life as it reveals itself to them.
In short diploid, you are shooting bullets at an elusive target. It's like shooting bullets into water expecting to injure or kill it.
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
|
Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique [Re: Silversoul]
#5719274 - 06/06/06 03:00 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Even if some suicide bombers claim to have mystical experiences...
So, SOME Suicide Bombers are mystics, but other are not?
Mysticism is certainly not a defining feature of suicide bombers.
According to your definition, mystics are:
Quote:
someone who has direct experience/access to the divine
How do you know that only "some" Suicide Bombers are mystics and the rest aren't?
To know this from your definition, you would have to be inside the head of a Suicide Bomber in order to determine that his motivation is not from "direct experience/access to the divine" and so he doesn't qualify as a mystic.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
#5719297 - 06/06/06 03:04 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
There is no rule book for what makes a right mystical practice and a wrong mystical practice.
So, when a Suicide Bomber is moved by God (or kids himself into believing this) to blow himself up, it's as 'right' as when a priest befriends a homeless person and offers him shelter.
If there's no rule book for determining right and wrong, as you say, then Suicide Bombers are as righteous as helpful priests.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique [Re: MushmanTheManic]
#5719386 - 06/06/06 03:23 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Diploid appears to be closed and rigid of thought. It seems as if he's speaking in absolutes rather than propositions.
It's an essay written for the purpose of inviting opposing views to see if my own views need updating.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
|
Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique [Re: Diploid]
#5719394 - 06/06/06 03:25 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
They think and believe themselves to be just as much as the helpful priest does. Maybe they just love murder and destruction and pose as people committing righteous acts to get support for their il cause. Who knows what goes on in their minds or even how much they themselves even believe the reasons they give for why the do what they do? 
What we have are human beings in this world. No matter what people believe in or not, act on or not, good or bad, they never stop being a human being until the fat lady sings.
Where does it stop with you? 
Tall people are good and right because I am.
Short people are bad and wrong because I am not.
Pepperoni pizza is good and right because I like it best.
Vegetable pizza is bad and wrong because I don't like it.
Plato is a good and right philosopher because I understand his view.
Aristotle is a bad and wrong philosopher because I don't understand his view.
Is this how you go through life diploid?
How do you know, suicide bombers aren't brainwashed into service by some malevolent higher being and are not getting rewarded with virgin sex in the after life? Can you show proof or evidence of this?
Will you at least distinguish between those who think murder of innocent strangers is justifiable and those who don't.
Then from there will you at least distinguish between those who find it to be justifiable in self defence and further those who never think its justifiable, but accept it as a fact of the current human condition.
You could find a mystic, islamist, logician, and scientist in all 3 of those belief categories.
What you do is like saying, One six year old likes cherry lolli pops best so all 6 years olds must like cherry lolli pops best. 
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
|
Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
#5719421 - 06/06/06 03:33 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Will you at least distinguish between those who think murder of innocent strangers is justifiable and those who don't.
jigz, you contradict yourself as usual.
If there is no rule book, there can be no distinction between the two. 
In essence, there really is No such thing as a mystic that can be defined.
Are you calling Markos, SS, and others liars?
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
Edited by Diploid (06/06/06 03:48 PM)
|
gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
|
Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique [Re: Diploid]
#5719505 - 06/06/06 03:55 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Diploid said: Will you at least distinguish between those who think murder of innocent strangers is justifiable and those who don't.
jigz, you contradict yourself as usual.
If there is no rule book, there can be no distinction between the two. 
Dips, I was not talking about any rules of mysticism because there are none. I was asking you to better distinguish who fits where within your own dogmatic rule book of right and wrong moral action.
If your problem is with people who believe suicide bombing for any reason is good and right, then, your problem is with them. The label ends there. People who believe suicide bombing is good. Lets shorten it up to just Suicide Bombers
How in the hell did the little old lady down the street who talks to garden fairies and the other who reads tea leaves become suicide bombers in your rule book?
That what I was asking you to get clear on, your own rule book, from whatever brand of dogmatic religion you practice.
When I do contradict myself and I do, its because I am free to see things from differing perspectives and have learned that the best application and approach to one thing, would be the worst one for another. I can flex and bend, cuz I'm a mystic. 
If I want to take my drywall down, smashing a hammer into it is the best approach. If I want walls to keep in the AC, taking a hammer to it, is the worst approach.
The world isn't one size fits all.
Quote:
In essence, there really is No such thing as a mystic that can be defined.
Are you calling Marcos, SS, and others liars?
Your the one trying to call mystics liars. I respect the fact that we all have differing views, self truths and opinions based on our unique experiences in life. I even respect yours, however and may I note, they seem to be at more peace with theirs and you don't seem to be at much peace with yours. Think about that. 
If something brings someone to a place of peace that calms and mends, inner turmoil and conflict, I would say, they discovered a pretty noble truth for themselves that serves them well, whatever it may be.
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
|
Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
#5719529 - 06/06/06 04:01 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
I was asking you to better distinguish who fits where within your own dogmatic rule book of right and wrong moral action.
This discussion is not about me. It's about mystics. 
and you don't seem to be at much peace with yours.
LMAO 
If the contradictory evidence is persuasive, the Suicide Bomber resorts to questioning the integrity of the person presenting the evidence rather than addressing the evidence directly.
Anyone starting to see a pattern here? Hello?
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
MushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
|
Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique [Re: Diploid]
#5719538 - 06/06/06 04:04 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Unfortunately, yes.
|
gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
|
Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique [Re: Diploid]
#5719547 - 06/06/06 04:06 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Diploid said: I was asking you to better distinguish who fits where within your own dogmatic rule book of right and wrong moral action.
This discussion is not about me. It's about mystics.
Not exactly. It's about your comparison of suicide bombers and your idea of what a mystic is.
I don't have John Edwards confused with a Jihading suicide bomber, or Japanese kamikaze Pilot.
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
|
Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
#5719573 - 06/06/06 04:13 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
It's about your comparison of suicide bombers and your idea of what a mystic is.
Nope.
The discussion is about A comparison of suicide bombers and AN idea of what a mystic is.
Philosophy 101. Get it straight.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
|
Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique [Re: Diploid]
#5719794 - 06/06/06 05:15 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Diploid said:
The discussion is about A comparison of suicide bombers and AN idea of what a mystic is.
Philosophy 101. Get it straight.
What's to discuss then? The objective essay, compares an idea of what a mystic is with a suicide bomber.
And?
Do you want people to agree with that? Okay, I can do that. An idea of a mystic is a suicide bomber.
Now, where did I put dynamite bomb belt? I like to wear it when I meditate.
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
|
Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
#5719847 - 06/06/06 05:32 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
I don't understand why you and others have so much trouble separating people from ideas.
Here's a suggestion: imagine my post was posted anonymously and you had no idea it was me, then try again.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
|
Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique [Re: Diploid]
#5719901 - 06/06/06 05:42 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
That wouldn't change a thing I wrote. The inquistive, seeking understanding and wanting healing for all, aspect of me would still be wondering about the fear of the unknown, the annonymous writer of it was in. 
How can one logically or rationally separate ideas from people when ideas come from people? If an idea alone doesn;t make sense to me, I have to question the author of it. 
Its like reading a book with parts that don;t make sense and you don;t have the author right there to clear it up for you so you can understand what they meant to say and where they are coming from.
That's one of the beauties of learning off message board authors. You can ask them questions to better understand the things they say that don't make sense to you.
If we are never allowed to ask personal questions, we are left to come to our own conclusions or just walk away from something with questions unanswered.
Thats what I am going to choose to do. Walk away from this one now.
Here's something from one of my fav lyrical authors-
Everybody do the twist Get the message off Fleas Fist
Guess what he has tatooed on it?
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
|
Basilides
Servent ofWisdom


Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 7,059
Loc: Crown and Heart
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
|
Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique [Re: Diploid]
#5720011 - 06/06/06 06:07 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Diploid said: It's about your comparison of suicide bombers and your idea of what a mystic is.
Nope.
The discussion is about A comparison of suicide bombers and AN idea of what a mystic is.
Philosophy 101. Get it straight.
For everyone's sake, it would help if you actually knew what a mystic is instead of using the word haphazardly to describe anyone who doesn't conform to your philosophical world view.
--------------------
    "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
|
Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique [Re: Basilides]
#5720359 - 06/06/06 07:39 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
it would help if you actually knew what a mystic is
Alright, educate me. What's a mystic?
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
Basilides
Servent ofWisdom


Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 7,059
Loc: Crown and Heart
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
|
Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique [Re: Diploid]
#5720384 - 06/06/06 07:46 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
In relation to mythological arcetypes, a mystic is someone who understands them - and does not conflate or confuse them with historicities.
--------------------
    "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
|
Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique [Re: Basilides]
#5720422 - 06/06/06 07:56 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
I see. Then SS is in error when he defines mystic differently above, yes? And jiggy too?
And if I take the time to do a quick search, I suppose I will find a couple hundred Shroomerites who have also erroneously defined mystic over the years.
I'm glad you cleared things up.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
Basilides
Servent ofWisdom


Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 7,059
Loc: Crown and Heart
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
|
Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique [Re: Diploid]
#5720436 - 06/06/06 07:59 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Glad I could help
--------------------
    "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
|
niteowl
GrandPaw


Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
Loc:
|
Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique [Re: Diploid]
#5720720 - 06/06/06 09:04 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
mysticism: the belief that direct knowledge of God, or ultimate reality, is attainable through immediate intuition or insight
From what I have read and understand about suicide bombers.....they have been highly indoctrinated into a religious cult and are doing these things out of a sense of dogma. They have been "programed" to do this through constant bombardment from an early age that "This is Gods will, if you are in tune with God, this will be your will too" So they believe that they are doing Gods work by blowing themselves up. When they are actually doing mans work
Mystics do not rely on/follow another persons dogma......they come up with their own dogma.
-------------------- Live for the moment you are in nowDon't be bogged down by your pastDon't be afraid of what lies in your future
|
Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique [Re: niteowl]
#5720732 - 06/06/06 09:07 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Thanks for yet one more new and contradicting definition. 
Be that as it may, read again the interview exerpt I posted above. The would-be Suicide Bomber being interviewed sounds to me like he meets your definition of mystic.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
Basilides
Servent ofWisdom


Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 7,059
Loc: Crown and Heart
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
|
Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique [Re: Diploid]
#5720853 - 06/06/06 09:41 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Aside from linguistic nit-picking Diploid, why "suicide bombers"? Exactly why do you select the most obvious example of mythological misinterpretation? A suicide bomber may have a belief in God. It basically ends there as a cognitive distortion (willfully perverting a consistent mythology). As far as I can see, their conception of God lays around the bottom of the barrell as far as primitive, mypoic attempts to understand a universal archetype goes.
If one can't discern a difference between Mahatma Gandhi and Mohammed Atta, frankly their philosophical intuition has about as much usefulness as pockets on a pair of underpants.
Unless of course, you're just looking for a fight, which is probably the case.
--------------------
    "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
|
niteowl
GrandPaw


Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
Loc:
|
Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique [Re: Diploid]
#5720920 - 06/06/06 09:56 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Diploid said: Thanks for yet one more new and contradicting definition.  Be that as it may, read again the interview excerpt I posted above. The would-be Suicide Bomber being interviewed sounds to me like he meets your definition of mystic.
Boy, you sure do like to ignore the parts of a post you don't/can't/won't understand.
Let me make my statement a little simpler....break it down for ya 
Quote:
.....suicide bombers.....have been indoctrinated into a religious cult......They have been "programed" to do this through constant bombardment from an early age.....
Mystics do not rely on another persons dogma
There, did that make the distinction more obvious for ya.
-------------------- Live for the moment you are in nowDon't be bogged down by your pastDon't be afraid of what lies in your future
|
Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique [Re: Basilides]
#5721068 - 06/06/06 10:38 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
A suicide bomber may have a belief in God. It basically ends there as a cognitive distortion (willfully perverting a consistent mythology). As far as I can see, their conception of God lays around the bottom of the barrell as far as primitive, mypoic attempts to understand a universal archetype goes.
Are you aware that Suicide Bombers say the same thing about you and they are just as credible?
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 11 days
|
Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique [Re: Diploid]
#5721138 - 06/06/06 10:58 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Diploid said: Suicide Bombers hold arbitrary beliefs that cannot be verified or falsified.
They hold these beliefs with such fervor, that they are blinded to all alternatives.
They never admit even the possibility that they may be wrong and stick to their beliefs in the face of evidence contradicting them.
...the Suicide Bomber resorts to questioning the integrity of the person presenting the evidence rather than addressing the evidence directly.
When Suicide Bombers are cornered in debate, they make recourse to invisible beings who happen to hold the same principles and ideals they do.
...it is not possible to show the Suicide Bomber that he is wrong even if it is the case that he actually IS wrong.
he refuses to answer and verbally attacks the questioner rather than address the question.
Suicide Bombers do not seek to update their beliefs or to find Truth; they stagnate and seek only to support their bygone conclusions.
They spin new information to make it 'fit' into their world view rather than treat the information neutrally, allowing it to fit or not fit on its own.
..the Suicide Bomber tells the other types of mystics that it is THEY who are wrong and for the exact same reasons!
Quote:
Diploid said: Suicide Bombers are closed and rigid of thought. They speak in absolutes rather than in propositions: "this is how it is" rather than "this is how it appears to be" or "I am not wrong" rather than "I don't think I'm wrong".
I simply do not have the time to reproduce every single absolute declarations you have expressed in this thread. Planning on driving a bus into any restaurants anytime soon? 
Recipe for long, pointless thread:
Propose a strawman.
Ensure that the strawman is referred to by an ambigious term. Ensuring that the term is one that will resonate with the target audience will more effectively stir up "debate".
As each person feels compelled to address different aspects of the strawman that you have outlined, start to play semantical games, questioning which definition is actually the one being referred to by the term that is representing one's strawman.
The thread will then spiral into the nothingness from which it came.
Please, let's not waste every one's time. 
 Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
|
Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique [Re: niteowl]
#5721141 - 06/06/06 10:58 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
suicide bombers.....have been indoctrinated into a religious cult
Not according to Suicide Bombers themselves. They claim to have direct, personal knowledge of God and God's wishes and they deny indoctrination. They claim their actions are at God's direction and that they know this because God makes his wishes known to them directly.
Your statement about Suicide Bombers being indoctrinated is baseless and contradicted by the many interviews and writings they've produced.
Or do you claim to know the heart and mind of the Suicide Bomber better than the Suicide Bomber himself?
Mystics do not rely on another persons dogma
This must be why the Catholic Church (a bunch of mystics if ever there was one) used dogma to Inquisition Galileo for stating that the Earth is not at the center of God's universe, and subsequently sentenced him to life in prison.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique [Re: fireworks_god]
#5721152 - 06/06/06 11:00 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
I simply do not have the time to reproduce every single absolute declarations you have expressed in this thread.
I already covered this.
Quote:
It's an essay written for the purpose of inviting opposing views to see if my own views need updating.
Besides, I can back most of my 'absolutes' with interviews of Suicide Bombers and their ilk.
And once again, this isn't a debate about me, it's about Mystics. If I act like a mystic in this thread (which I don't think I have), pointing it out is an irrelevant ad hominem and you of all people should know better.
The debate is about Mystics, not about Diploid.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
Edited by Diploid (06/06/06 11:41 PM)
|
fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 11 days
|
Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique [Re: Diploid]
#5721159 - 06/06/06 11:04 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Diploid said: I already covered this.
Must have missed it, amongst all of your absolute declarations. 
 Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
|
Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique [Re: fireworks_god]
#5721168 - 06/06/06 11:05 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Read my edit.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 11 days
|
Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique [Re: Diploid]
#5721194 - 06/06/06 11:10 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
I still think that this entire discussion is baseless. You are addressing a certain classification of people that is entirely generalized and, quite honestly, is simply a strawman.
You repeatedly issue statements concerning who these people are and who they aren't, and it is like, dude, maybe we could have an actual discussion on the matter if the matter was something that could be evidenced in reality? 
I mean, I can understand if you are simply setting up some bait to see who will demonstrate that they aren't seeing it as it is, but beyond that, I wouldn't expect much productive discussion of an idea that pertains to these people of straw that you propose. 
 Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
|
niteowl
GrandPaw


Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
Loc:
|
Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique [Re: Diploid]
#5721232 - 06/06/06 11:20 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
So your claiming all religious people to be mystics?

Get over yourself already.
From my experience and observations a mystic is one who has shed their religious dogma and found their own path to "god".
With this definition any person quoting from any religious text/dogma.....can't be a "mystic"
Now, if your going to label anyone who doesn't agree with your POV a mystic...then I guess you're right...everyone's a mystic except you 
-------------------- Live for the moment you are in nowDon't be bogged down by your pastDon't be afraid of what lies in your future
|
Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique [Re: fireworks_god]
#5721238 - 06/06/06 11:22 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
start to play semantical games, questioning which definition is actually the one being referred to
Woah man. What's up with this.
I didn't start playing semantical games. It was everyone else who started bitching about my 'improper' use of the word mystic. I just asked for clarification (and got a half dozen conflicting definitions instead). WTF else am I supposed to do when I'm told my usage is wrong?
Don't blame ME for that.
You repeatedly issue statements concerning who these people are and who they aren't...these people of straw that you propose.
Those statements are based in their own words gathered from interviews and writings, not straw. Why am I wrong to restate what they themselves have stated?
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique [Re: niteowl]
#5721253 - 06/06/06 11:25 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
So your claiming all religious people to be mystics?
Religious people are not mystics? Now I'm really confused.
From your own definition:
Quote:
mysticism: the belief that direct knowledge of God, or ultimate reality, is attainable through immediate intuition or insight
Get over yourself already.
Thanks for the fourth ad hominem so far in this thread.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
niteowl
GrandPaw


Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
Loc:
|
Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique [Re: Diploid]
#5721307 - 06/06/06 11:42 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Are you saying that all people who believe in god are religious.
-------------------- Live for the moment you are in nowDon't be bogged down by your pastDon't be afraid of what lies in your future
|
Basilides
Servent ofWisdom


Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 7,059
Loc: Crown and Heart
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
|
Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique [Re: Diploid]
#5721339 - 06/06/06 11:55 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Diploid said: A suicide bomber may have a belief in God. It basically ends there as a cognitive distortion (willfully perverting a consistent mythology). As far as I can see, their conception of God lays around the bottom of the barrell as far as primitive, mypoic attempts to understand a universal archetype goes.
Are you aware that Suicide Bombers say the same thing about you and they are just as credible?
How are your beliefs any different than a suicide bomber? After all, I'm sure you share some beliefs with at least one suicide bomber who came and went. Who knows what kind of people these are. Maybe you and a few bombers of recent times shared a similar belief in respect to economics, social manners, what constitutes good hygeine..Who knows.
--------------------
    "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
Edited by Basilides (06/07/06 12:15 AM)
|
gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
|
Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique [Re: niteowl]
#5721383 - 06/07/06 12:08 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
niteowl said: So your claiming all religious people to be mystics?

Get over yourself already.
From my experience and observations a mystic is one who has shed their religious dogma and found their own path to "god".
With this definition any person quoting from any religious text/dogma.....can't be a "mystic"
Now, if your going to label anyone who doesn't agree with your POV a mystic...then I guess you're right...everyone's a mystic except you 
Worse is, its seems like he is saying anything that falls under any one of the myriad of mystical definitions is following the doctrines of a religious faith. 
Thats just funny. I ran the other way from the Catholic Churches dogmatic nonsense as soon as I was old enough too. Most of my spiritually aware friends, (people dip would call mystics) oddly are EX Catholics too. One thing we all have in common is exactly what you said niteowl.
We were put off by the dogma and sought our own ways to live a better life based on our own personal preferences and what felt right and true and or works for us as individuals.
At another forum I participate in, we are always independently changing, and re-modifying our understanding of the big picture. We like to come together to compare notes , pick up tips to try out, relate, entertain differing views and insights, yet ultimately, we choose and decide for ourselves what or what not to believe in and respect our differences most of the time.
Every now and then someone will get a wild hair up their ass and tell someone their idea is horse shit and then they calm down and realize, their behavior was that of an ass, and then everyone laughs, loves and forgives and lives quite peacefully in respect of differing views, together again.
There is a core foundation that allows for it to be so year after year there. We all practice, understanding and forgiveness best we can not because it is the right or morally correct thing to do. We do it because it feels good and more freeing to do it.
FG, I think you called it when you said an arbitrary word like "mystic" was used to vent anger and frustration at Catholics and "others" who practice dogma that teaches one to murder strangers, so they can get laid by ghosts, and earn their family some pay to live on, for doing the job.
And you are right, this thread is a waste of my time too. Most of the "mystics" here will never be the dogmatic, anti science Catholics fearing eternal damnation and some neurotic, jealous vengeful god OR become suicide bombers for Allah as dip imagines them to be. And Dip as of now, isn't showwing signs of bothering to work at understanding that.
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
|
Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique [Re: Basilides]
#5721386 - 06/07/06 12:09 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
How are your beliefs any different than a suicide bomber?
Do my beliefs have bearing on the truth/falsity of what I've been saying?
If I'm a hypocrite and behave like a Suicide Bomber, does that behavior change the truth/falsity of the things I am saying?
If I say the sky is blue, does the truth of that statement hinge on me or my beliefs?
It's amazing to me that in a philosophy forum people are so oblivious to the principles of philosophical discussion and so continually harp on my character rather than confine the discussion to the topic at hand that it makes constructive debate nearly impossible. This even from long-time members who should know better and even though I've spelled it out at least four times so far in this in this thread alone.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
Basilides
Servent ofWisdom


Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 7,059
Loc: Crown and Heart
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
|
Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique [Re: Diploid]
#5721405 - 06/07/06 12:17 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Sorry, presenting a field of straws is hardly savvy philosophical debate.
--------------------
    "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
|
gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
|
Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique [Re: Diploid]
#5721424 - 06/07/06 12:20 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Arn't you doing the same thing by getting into personalisms saying people at a philosophy forum don't know how to have a philosophical debate? That's a personalism.
And, I think people are still trying to figure out what it is you think is being discussed/debated if not the proposal that suicide bombers think just like mystics.
Everyone is telling you that it is a laughable statement, and so we don't know what is here to take seriously to discuss and debate other then why you think that way.
I'll ask you again, what are we suppose to be discussing here?
You seem to just want people to agree with you that all mystics are suicide bombers and Catholics.
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
|
gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
|
Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
#5721520 - 06/07/06 12:40 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
I have an idea that may help you understand others diploid.
How bout I put up a post that says
Child Rapists and other Scientists- A Critique
Child rapists believe a larger body of mass can be forced into a smaller body of mass.
Scientist believe this too.
A child rapist believes that when it gets an idea for a new possibility, it should first work it out in theory and if that works, it should test it out for real next.
A scientist believes that too.
A child rapist believes it has its rights to impose its will unto experimenting with smaller and helpless life forms.
Scientists believe that too.
End example post.
You get the idea. Sometimes, the only way we can understand another is to be put in their shoes. Can you maybe see why people are calling your post strawman now?
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
|
soulcircus
Stranger


Registered: 05/09/06
Posts: 1,300
Last seen: 4 years, 7 months
|
Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique *DELETED* [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
#5723367 - 06/07/06 04:02 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Post deleted by soulcircusReason for deletion: .
|
Xanthas
Blaspheme,blaspheyou, Blaspheverybody

Registered: 11/19/05
Posts: 267
Last seen: 16 years, 8 months
|
Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique [Re: soulcircus]
#5723411 - 06/07/06 04:13 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
soulcircus said: i've astrally projected, and ill answer any question appropriatly
To the left of my keyboard, on a small shelf, there is a stack of CD's. Upon those CD's there are number of objects. Describe them.
-------------------- If you don't ask the question, you always get it wrong.
|
fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 11 days
|
Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique [Re: Xanthas]
#5723565 - 06/07/06 04:57 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Yeah, he never declared that he was able to view objects in physical reality... He also stated that he would answer any question anyone might have, but you never posed a question. 

 Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
|
Xanthas
Blaspheme,blaspheyou, Blaspheverybody

Registered: 11/19/05
Posts: 267
Last seen: 16 years, 8 months
|
Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique [Re: fireworks_god]
#5723626 - 06/07/06 05:09 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
I just thought it was somewhat humerous. Nothing really to fit into the discussion.
Question is, then, what is on that CD stack?
-------------------- If you don't ask the question, you always get it wrong.
|
fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 11 days
|
Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique [Re: Xanthas]
#5723666 - 06/07/06 05:20 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
I'll have an answer when I fly an airplane into your home, and then search the rubble. 
 Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
|
|