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Basilides
Servent ofWisdom


Registered: 02/10/06
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Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique [Re: Diploid]
#5720011 - 06/06/06 06:07 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: It's about your comparison of suicide bombers and your idea of what a mystic is.
Nope.
The discussion is about A comparison of suicide bombers and AN idea of what a mystic is.
Philosophy 101. Get it straight.
For everyone's sake, it would help if you actually knew what a mystic is instead of using the word haphazardly to describe anyone who doesn't conform to your philosophical world view.
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    "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
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Diploid
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Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique [Re: Basilides]
#5720359 - 06/06/06 07:39 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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it would help if you actually knew what a mystic is
Alright, educate me. What's a mystic?
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Basilides
Servent ofWisdom


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Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique [Re: Diploid]
#5720384 - 06/06/06 07:46 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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In relation to mythological arcetypes, a mystic is someone who understands them - and does not conflate or confuse them with historicities.
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    "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
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Diploid
Cuban


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Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique [Re: Basilides]
#5720422 - 06/06/06 07:56 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I see. Then SS is in error when he defines mystic differently above, yes? And jiggy too?
And if I take the time to do a quick search, I suppose I will find a couple hundred Shroomerites who have also erroneously defined mystic over the years.
I'm glad you cleared things up.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Basilides
Servent ofWisdom


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Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique [Re: Diploid]
#5720436 - 06/06/06 07:59 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Glad I could help
--------------------
    "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
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niteowl
GrandPaw


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Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique [Re: Diploid]
#5720720 - 06/06/06 09:04 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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mysticism: the belief that direct knowledge of God, or ultimate reality, is attainable through immediate intuition or insight
From what I have read and understand about suicide bombers.....they have been highly indoctrinated into a religious cult and are doing these things out of a sense of dogma. They have been "programed" to do this through constant bombardment from an early age that "This is Gods will, if you are in tune with God, this will be your will too" So they believe that they are doing Gods work by blowing themselves up. When they are actually doing mans work
Mystics do not rely on/follow another persons dogma......they come up with their own dogma.
-------------------- Live for the moment you are in nowDon't be bogged down by your pastDon't be afraid of what lies in your future
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Diploid
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Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique [Re: niteowl]
#5720732 - 06/06/06 09:07 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Thanks for yet one more new and contradicting definition. 
Be that as it may, read again the interview exerpt I posted above. The would-be Suicide Bomber being interviewed sounds to me like he meets your definition of mystic.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Basilides
Servent ofWisdom


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Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique [Re: Diploid]
#5720853 - 06/06/06 09:41 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Aside from linguistic nit-picking Diploid, why "suicide bombers"? Exactly why do you select the most obvious example of mythological misinterpretation? A suicide bomber may have a belief in God. It basically ends there as a cognitive distortion (willfully perverting a consistent mythology). As far as I can see, their conception of God lays around the bottom of the barrell as far as primitive, mypoic attempts to understand a universal archetype goes.
If one can't discern a difference between Mahatma Gandhi and Mohammed Atta, frankly their philosophical intuition has about as much usefulness as pockets on a pair of underpants.
Unless of course, you're just looking for a fight, which is probably the case.
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    "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
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niteowl
GrandPaw


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Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique [Re: Diploid]
#5720920 - 06/06/06 09:56 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: Thanks for yet one more new and contradicting definition.  Be that as it may, read again the interview excerpt I posted above. The would-be Suicide Bomber being interviewed sounds to me like he meets your definition of mystic.
Boy, you sure do like to ignore the parts of a post you don't/can't/won't understand.
Let me make my statement a little simpler....break it down for ya 
Quote:
.....suicide bombers.....have been indoctrinated into a religious cult......They have been "programed" to do this through constant bombardment from an early age.....
Mystics do not rely on another persons dogma
There, did that make the distinction more obvious for ya.
-------------------- Live for the moment you are in nowDon't be bogged down by your pastDon't be afraid of what lies in your future
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Diploid
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Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique [Re: Basilides]
#5721068 - 06/06/06 10:38 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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A suicide bomber may have a belief in God. It basically ends there as a cognitive distortion (willfully perverting a consistent mythology). As far as I can see, their conception of God lays around the bottom of the barrell as far as primitive, mypoic attempts to understand a universal archetype goes.
Are you aware that Suicide Bombers say the same thing about you and they are just as credible?
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
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Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique [Re: Diploid]
#5721138 - 06/06/06 10:58 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: Suicide Bombers hold arbitrary beliefs that cannot be verified or falsified.
They hold these beliefs with such fervor, that they are blinded to all alternatives.
They never admit even the possibility that they may be wrong and stick to their beliefs in the face of evidence contradicting them.
...the Suicide Bomber resorts to questioning the integrity of the person presenting the evidence rather than addressing the evidence directly.
When Suicide Bombers are cornered in debate, they make recourse to invisible beings who happen to hold the same principles and ideals they do.
...it is not possible to show the Suicide Bomber that he is wrong even if it is the case that he actually IS wrong.
he refuses to answer and verbally attacks the questioner rather than address the question.
Suicide Bombers do not seek to update their beliefs or to find Truth; they stagnate and seek only to support their bygone conclusions.
They spin new information to make it 'fit' into their world view rather than treat the information neutrally, allowing it to fit or not fit on its own.
..the Suicide Bomber tells the other types of mystics that it is THEY who are wrong and for the exact same reasons!
Quote:
Diploid said: Suicide Bombers are closed and rigid of thought. They speak in absolutes rather than in propositions: "this is how it is" rather than "this is how it appears to be" or "I am not wrong" rather than "I don't think I'm wrong".
I simply do not have the time to reproduce every single absolute declarations you have expressed in this thread. Planning on driving a bus into any restaurants anytime soon? 
Recipe for long, pointless thread:
Propose a strawman.
Ensure that the strawman is referred to by an ambigious term. Ensuring that the term is one that will resonate with the target audience will more effectively stir up "debate".
As each person feels compelled to address different aspects of the strawman that you have outlined, start to play semantical games, questioning which definition is actually the one being referred to by the term that is representing one's strawman.
The thread will then spiral into the nothingness from which it came.
Please, let's not waste every one's time. 
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Diploid
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Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique [Re: niteowl]
#5721141 - 06/06/06 10:58 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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suicide bombers.....have been indoctrinated into a religious cult
Not according to Suicide Bombers themselves. They claim to have direct, personal knowledge of God and God's wishes and they deny indoctrination. They claim their actions are at God's direction and that they know this because God makes his wishes known to them directly.
Your statement about Suicide Bombers being indoctrinated is baseless and contradicted by the many interviews and writings they've produced.
Or do you claim to know the heart and mind of the Suicide Bomber better than the Suicide Bomber himself?
Mystics do not rely on another persons dogma
This must be why the Catholic Church (a bunch of mystics if ever there was one) used dogma to Inquisition Galileo for stating that the Earth is not at the center of God's universe, and subsequently sentenced him to life in prison.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique [Re: fireworks_god]
#5721152 - 06/06/06 11:00 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I simply do not have the time to reproduce every single absolute declarations you have expressed in this thread.
I already covered this.
Quote:
It's an essay written for the purpose of inviting opposing views to see if my own views need updating.
Besides, I can back most of my 'absolutes' with interviews of Suicide Bombers and their ilk.
And once again, this isn't a debate about me, it's about Mystics. If I act like a mystic in this thread (which I don't think I have), pointing it out is an irrelevant ad hominem and you of all people should know better.
The debate is about Mystics, not about Diploid.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
Edited by Diploid (06/06/06 11:41 PM)
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
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Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique [Re: Diploid]
#5721159 - 06/06/06 11:04 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: I already covered this.
Must have missed it, amongst all of your absolute declarations. 
 Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique [Re: fireworks_god]
#5721168 - 06/06/06 11:05 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Read my edit.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
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Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique [Re: Diploid]
#5721194 - 06/06/06 11:10 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I still think that this entire discussion is baseless. You are addressing a certain classification of people that is entirely generalized and, quite honestly, is simply a strawman.
You repeatedly issue statements concerning who these people are and who they aren't, and it is like, dude, maybe we could have an actual discussion on the matter if the matter was something that could be evidenced in reality? 
I mean, I can understand if you are simply setting up some bait to see who will demonstrate that they aren't seeing it as it is, but beyond that, I wouldn't expect much productive discussion of an idea that pertains to these people of straw that you propose. 
 Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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niteowl
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Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique [Re: Diploid]
#5721232 - 06/06/06 11:20 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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So your claiming all religious people to be mystics?

Get over yourself already.
From my experience and observations a mystic is one who has shed their religious dogma and found their own path to "god".
With this definition any person quoting from any religious text/dogma.....can't be a "mystic"
Now, if your going to label anyone who doesn't agree with your POV a mystic...then I guess you're right...everyone's a mystic except you 
-------------------- Live for the moment you are in nowDon't be bogged down by your pastDon't be afraid of what lies in your future
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Diploid
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Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique [Re: fireworks_god]
#5721238 - 06/06/06 11:22 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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start to play semantical games, questioning which definition is actually the one being referred to
Woah man. What's up with this.
I didn't start playing semantical games. It was everyone else who started bitching about my 'improper' use of the word mystic. I just asked for clarification (and got a half dozen conflicting definitions instead). WTF else am I supposed to do when I'm told my usage is wrong?
Don't blame ME for that.
You repeatedly issue statements concerning who these people are and who they aren't...these people of straw that you propose.
Those statements are based in their own words gathered from interviews and writings, not straw. Why am I wrong to restate what they themselves have stated?
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Diploid
Cuban


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Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique [Re: niteowl]
#5721253 - 06/06/06 11:25 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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So your claiming all religious people to be mystics?
Religious people are not mystics? Now I'm really confused.
From your own definition:
Quote:
mysticism: the belief that direct knowledge of God, or ultimate reality, is attainable through immediate intuition or insight
Get over yourself already.
Thanks for the fourth ad hominem so far in this thread.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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niteowl
GrandPaw


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Posts: 16,291
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Re: Suicide Bombers and Other Mystics - A Critique [Re: Diploid]
#5721307 - 06/06/06 11:42 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Are you saying that all people who believe in god are religious.
-------------------- Live for the moment you are in nowDon't be bogged down by your pastDon't be afraid of what lies in your future
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