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OfflineBasilides
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Haditha and the Psychosis of War
    #5711825 - 06/04/06 04:42 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I don't understand how a small group of servicemen can committ such a horrendous atrocity. Why? Is it gestalt psychosis? I don't understand how someone can be so filled with hate as to just massacre a bunch of innocent people.

These soldiers should get the death penalty.


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: Basilides]
    #5711850 - 06/04/06 04:51 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:


These soldiers should get the death penalty.




...in Iraq.


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: Vvellum]
    #5712039 - 06/04/06 05:34 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

This event makes Lynddie England look like Mother Teresa


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"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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Invisibledownforpot
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Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: Basilides]
    #5712615 - 06/04/06 08:26 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Basilides said:
I don't understand how a small group of servicemen can committ such a horrendous atrocity. Why? Is it gestalt psychosis? I don't understand how someone can be so filled with hate as to just massacre a bunch of innocent people.

These soldiers should get the death penalty.




I don't think many people on here can understand what can go through your mind when you see your friend's guts flying everywhere. Me included. The only people that can judge them are the ones that have seen the horrors of war and seen people get blown to bits, seen their friends get killed, seen little kids get killed, and killed people themselves with no mercy.

Death penalty? What will that solve? Your one of those guys that thinks the death penalty can stop crimes of passion? Well, ok, seems to be working in the good ol USA.


--------------------



http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"


Edited by downforpot (06/04/06 08:28 PM)


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: downforpot]
    #5712962 - 06/04/06 09:50 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Sorry man, but anyone who massacres innocent people deserves to be put to death, nor should they get any sympathy. I don't care how many fucked up stuff they've seen, there are 100,000+ soldiers in Iraq who have seen fucked up stuff, and you don't see them slaughtering innocent villagers. Christ, this isn't Abu Ghraib. 24 innocent people were murdered. Making excuses for these people about stress might have worked with the Abu Ghraib scandal, but this is entirely different. What next, if a serviceman rapes an Iraqi woman are you going to "refrain judgement" because you "dont know what they've been through?". My guess is these disgraced soldiers were nothing more than thugs who viewed all Iraqis as subhuman.

And since when did you become so pro-life? You've long favored the death penalty for apprehended terrorists, did you not? A bit of a catch-22 don't you think, if you feel that one group of mass-murderers should get the death sentence while another group of mass-murderers should be spared death.


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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Invisibledownforpot
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Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: Basilides]
    #5713134 - 06/04/06 10:30 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Basilides said:
Sorry man, but anyone who massacres innocent people deserves to be put to death, nor should they get any sympathy. I don't care how many fucked up stuff they've seen, there are 100,000+ soldiers in Iraq who have seen fucked up stuff, and you don't see them slaughtering innocent villagers. Christ, this isn't Abu Ghraib. 24 innocent people were murdered. Making excuses for these people about stress might have worked with the Abu Ghraib scandal, but this is entirely different. What next, if a serviceman rapes an Iraqi woman are you going to "refrain judgement" because you "dont know what they've been through?". My guess is these disgraced soldiers were nothing more than thugs who viewed all Iraqis as subhuman.

And since when did you become so pro-life? You've long favored the death penalty for apprehended terrorists, did you not? A bit of a catch-22 don't you think, if you feel that one group of mass-murderers should get the death sentence while another group of mass-murderers should be spared death.




I guess it shows that people change, except you. You will always stick to the same rhetoric.

You seem pretty violent for a peaceful person, lol.

Are you telling me you never wanted to kill people when you are pissed off? I guess you don't know what people do when they are under stress. Oh and by the way if you think other troops don't do this when they are pissed off, well, keep thinking that maybe it will come true.

Actually lately I've been talking about converting terrorists instead of killing them but I guess you have pretty much got in your head that people don't change their points of view, good job.


--------------------



http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"


Edited by downforpot (06/04/06 10:34 PM)


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OfflinexDuckYouSuckerx
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Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: Basilides]
    #5713804 - 06/05/06 01:52 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Basilides said:
I don't understand how a small group of servicemen can committ such a horrendous atrocity. Why? Is it gestalt psychosis? I don't understand how someone can be so filled with hate as to just massacre a bunch of innocent people.




* Were you there?

* Have you ever been shot at or in combat?

Well, thats why you can't understand.


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Unions are the bastions of the mediocre. - luvdemshrooms


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: Basilides]
    #5713870 - 06/05/06 02:47 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

This situation definately presents a quandry for a lot of people. We abhor the tactics of Islamic terrorists who seem to be outright gleeful when they murder innocent civilians. Yet, many people automatically start to make excuses for their country's soldiers when they murder innocent civilians.

Let's say that the allegations in Haditha are completely true. On the one hand, I can understand the frustrations experienced by these soldiers. They are probably in an area where 50% of the population is involved in the insurgency, helping the insurgency, or sympathetic to it. They deal with locals everyday who hate them and who probably contribute to the insurgency in some way. And, they can't do anything about these people unless they see them pick up a gun.

I remember reading an article about an occurrence in Iraq. A U.S. Army convoy was driving through an Iraqi town and they spotted a suspicous guy. They detained him and they found a cell phone detonating device on him. This guy was going to set off an IED when the convoy got to a certain spot. The U.S. Army soldiers went to the guy's house and found his mother. His mother obviously hated the American troops and their presence. She looked at the soldiers with contempt and she said nothing that was of any help. It was obvious that she probably knew something (who the local insurgent leaders were, etc..). I have a short temper and I admit that I probably would have killed that woman right on the spot. It's good that I am not a soldier because I wouldn't be able to restrain myself with people who were actively involved in or supporting hostile actions against myself and my buddies.

But, on the other hand, I cannot support going into a house and murdering children. That is completely uncalled for. I think these U.S. Marines should probably be handed over to the locals and whatever will be will be. But, I also think that we should be able to do whatever we want to Islamic terrorists.


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: xDuckYouSuckerx]
    #5713893 - 06/05/06 03:21 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Hey, I don't deny that these soldiers might have been under stress - I simply don't care. Hang em.


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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Invisibledownforpot
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Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: Basilides]
    #5714513 - 06/05/06 11:19 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Basilides said:
Hey, I don't deny that these soldiers might have been under stress - I simply don't care. Hang em.




LOL LOL. You ran out of ideas. "I simply don't care"

If you don't care then why the fuck do you care if they kill people? Don't care? Then don't even bother opening your mouth.


--------------------



http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"


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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: xDuckYouSuckerx]
    #5714905 - 06/05/06 12:50 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

xDuckYouSuckerx said:
Quote:

Basilides said:
I don't understand how a small group of servicemen can committ such a horrendous atrocity. Why? Is it gestalt psychosis? I don't understand how someone can be so filled with hate as to just massacre a bunch of innocent people.




* Were you there?

* Have you ever been shot at or in combat?

Well, thats why you can't understand.





This is terrible logic, and this question can be shot right back at you. It is in the marine code of conduct and the rules of engagement to not shoot at civilian targets, The fact that you condone the killing of innocent people like this is ridiculous and shows you dont have an inch of military experience you armchair general.

Now to answer Basilides question, Things like this happen because intense stress of combat, from seeing decomposing bodies and complete distrust and animosity towards Coalition forces by the Iraqi populace (very similar to the vietnam situation) This is also at the fault of the Commander of the squad for not enforcing military ethics.


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OfflinexDuckYouSuckerx
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Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: Basilides]
    #5715060 - 06/05/06 01:44 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Basilides said:
Hey, I don't deny that these soldiers might have been under stress - I simply don't care. Hang em.




Since you weren't there, you clearly can't have the 'real picture' of what went on. Are you automatically going to side with the terrorists version of the story, simply because you hate the US troops over there?

If a IED went off, most likley it was remote detonated. If that happens and 10 out of the 40 normal-dressed Habeeb's around you start pulling out AK's and throwing grenades, you start shooting back. If some innocents get killed, well, thats war. Noone is going to try to hang the pilots that dropped ordinance on "Civilians", because they didn't intentionally kill them. People die in a war, thats the name of the game.


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OfflinexDuckYouSuckerx
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Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #5715093 - 06/05/06 01:51 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

The_Red_Crayon said:
This is terrible logic, and this question can be shot right back at you.



My answers would be no to the first question and yes to the second.  It's not terrible logic, if you weren't there, how can you know what they were up against?  You can either believe the US Marines version of the story, or the possible-terrorists version of the story.  I don't know why people are so quick to jump to assuming that the Marine Corps would lie but the average Habeeb in Iraq is an honest, upstanding person.
Quote:


It is in the marine code of conduct and the rules of engagement to not shoot at civilian targets



Thats correct, however, things happen.  The Marine aviators that dropped bombs killed some civilians, I'm sure.  If one habeeb is standing in a crowd holding an AK-47 spraying a convoy that just was attacked with an IED, I'm sure that he'll be shot and, quite possibly, the people around him will be shot.
Quote:


The fact that you condone the killing of innocent people like this is ridiculous



You don't seem to have a full grasp of the english language.  First, you call my logic faulty when it's obviously correct, in that only the participants and those that were there will ever see "the real" truth, and second, you misuse the word fact.  Show me where I stated that I condoned the killing of innocent people.  You can't, right?  Thats because I never did.  Shit happens in war.  It's not a fun place, it's not like TV where the Good Guys shoot only the bad guys.  If you haven't been there, haven't faced it and don't understand the sort of mentality of being in constant combat, then you just don't understand how it works.  I am against the intentional targetting of civilians.  Do some civilians end up at the wrong place at the wrong time and end up getting killed?  I'm sure that they do.  Do I think that more civilians have been injured by IED's set up to kill Americans than were killed this day?  Most definatly.
Quote:


and shows you dont have an inch of military experience you armchair general.



Pal, I've got MILES of military experience.  And I wouldn't be an officer of any sort :smile:
Quote:


Now to answer Basilides question, Things like this happen because intense stress of combat, from seeing decomposing bodies and complete distrust and animosity towards Coalition forces by the Iraqi populace (very similar to the vietnam situation) This is also at the fault of the Commander of the squad for not enforcing military ethics.



Squads don't have Commanders, most exaulted military master.  If you were on a convoy and a IED went off, then you saw a bunch of guys pull out AK's and start shooting at you, you'd shoot back.  Would you hit every time?  Doubtful.  Would your bullets know that you missed and disintegrate before they hit a civilian? Negative.  Would you maybe cause some civilian injuries?  Possibly.  Thats just how war works.  If these Marines intentionally murdered civilians, then they should be tried.  But I Think that for a bunch of shrooming hippies to sit back and dictate how wars run is a bit of a stretch.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: xDuckYouSuckerx]
    #5715187 - 06/05/06 02:11 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Did 10 Habeebs pull out grenades and machine guns? I seemed to have missed that part when I read coverage on the incident.

My understanding was that a group of soldiers went apeshit when one of their buddies was killed by an IED.


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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: xDuckYouSuckerx]
    #5715204 - 06/05/06 02:15 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

My answers would be no to the first question and yes to the second. It's not terrible logic, if you weren't there, how can you know what they were up against? You can either believe the US Marines version of the story, or the possible-terrorists version of the story. I don't know why people are so quick to jump to assuming that the Marine Corps would lie but the average Habeeb in Iraq is an honest, upstanding person.





Ah so the entire people in the village are potential terrorists, including women and children, and the fact that our troops cant even trust a civilian populace that we are supposed to be helping. Wow history sure does repeat itself. Your entire argument is a dichotomy.

Quote:

Thats correct, however, things happen. The Marine aviators that dropped bombs killed some civilians, I'm sure. If one habeeb is standing in a crowd holding an AK-47 spraying a convoy that just was attacked with an IED, I'm sure that he'll be shot and, quite possibly, the people around him will be shot.





Sure it happens a lot (Dresden,Yokohoma,Operation Pheonix) but when your fighting a occupational war, in an effort to garner support from the civilian population so we can put forth a transitional government when Iraqi's see the bodies of children and women and everyone in the village pointing at the marines, Do you honestly think the entire village are terrorists, Do you honestly think the Iraqi's are going to believe the Marines or the Iraqi Villagers, Do you think the Iraqi civilian populace watch american media. This shit happened in November i remembered the unedited video when it came out then.


Quote:

Pal, I've got MILES of military experience. And I wouldn't be an officer of any sort


Divulge because you sure seem uneducated.

Quote:

Squads don't have Commanders, most exaulted military master



nice use of semantics, you get my point.

Quote:

Would you hit every time? Doubtful. Would your bullets know that you missed and disintegrate before they hit a civilian? Negative. Would you maybe cause some civilian injuries? Possibly. Thats just how war works. If these Marines intentionally murdered civilians, then they should be tried. But I Think that for a bunch of shrooming hippies to sit back and dictate how wars run is a bit of a stretch.




How does this have absolutely anything to do with the Haditha incident, Do you even know the official story? Your just ranting off on psychobabble, Shrooming hippies? Your a nutcase.


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: xDuckYouSuckerx]
    #5715228 - 06/05/06 02:19 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

xDuckYouSuckerx said:
Quote:

Basilides said:
Hey, I don't deny that these soldiers might have been under stress - I simply don't care. Hang em.




Since you weren't there, you clearly can't have the 'real picture' of what went on.  Are you automatically going to side with the terrorists version of the story, simply because you hate the US troops over there? 

If a IED went off, most likley it was remote detonated.  If that happens and 10 out of the 40 normal-dressed Habeeb's around you start pulling out AK's and throwing grenades, you start shooting back.  If some innocents get killed, well, thats war.  Noone is going to try to hang the pilots that dropped ordinance on "Civilians", because they didn't intentionally kill them.  People die in a war, thats the name of the game.




Awww, the poor war criminals.

Again, I don't care. Death is what they've sowed. The fact that you're making excuses for them is somewhat reprehensible. "People die in war" - this is the logic of suicide bombers when they notice a mother with several babes in the seconds before they detonate themselves. :thumbdown:


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


Edited by Basilides (06/05/06 02:25 PM)


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Invisibledownforpot
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Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: Basilides]
    #5715260 - 06/05/06 02:26 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Basilides said:
Quote:

xDuckYouSuckerx said:
Quote:

Basilides said:
Hey, I don't deny that these soldiers might have been under stress - I simply don't care. Hang em.




Since you weren't there, you clearly can't have the 'real picture' of what went on.  Are you automatically going to side with the terrorists version of the story, simply because you hate the US troops over there? 

If a IED went off, most likley it was remote detonated.  If that happens and 10 out of the 40 normal-dressed Habeeb's around you start pulling out AK's and throwing grenades, you start shooting back.  If some innocents get killed, well, thats war.  Noone is going to try to hang the pilots that dropped ordinance on "Civilians", because they didn't intentionally kill them.  People die in a war, thats the name of the game.




Awww, the poor war criminals.

Again, I don't care. Death is what they've sowed. The fact that you're making excuses for them is somewhat reprehensible. "People die in war" - this is the logic of suicide bombers when they notice a mother with several babes in the seconds before they detonate themselves. :thumbdown:




Running out of ideas again? "I don't care" LOL. Apparently the soldiers didn't care either, lol. Good logic.

Oh by the way if you haven't been keeping up with the current events.... commanders are keeping soldiers on prozac in the field... basically they are keeping mentally unstable soldiers already on prozac, just waiting to blow up and slaughter people.

http://www.mediainfo.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1002502435

So you ask why people could do such a thing? Why would soldiers that come to USA end up killing their families? WHY?!?!?! TELL ME?!?! Why would a soldier that comes back to USA kill his wife??!?!!?

http://www.courttv.com/news/2005/0805/soldier_ap.html


--------------------



http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"


Edited by downforpot (06/05/06 02:27 PM)


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: downforpot]
    #5715280 - 06/05/06 02:30 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I simply don't accept the "stress of war" theory as an excuse. While we're at it, why don't we give Hamas some leniency because of the "stress of occupation"? You're defending mass murderers, plain and simple. Mass murderers, whether U.S. servicemen or cladestine fanatics, deserve nothing short of extermination from this planet.


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: Basilides]
    #5715716 - 06/05/06 04:19 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Well seeing as nobody here knows anything about what actually happened there I would say that the imposition of the death sentence on the soldiers might be a tad premature


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5715728 - 06/05/06 04:23 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

:thumbup:

Especially since most likely half of these same people were crying for that sucmfuck gangbanger to not be put to death earlier this year. Double standards a little?


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Invisibledownforpot
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Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: Basilides]
    #5715950 - 06/05/06 05:39 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Basilides said:
I simply don't accept the "stress of war" theory as an excuse. While we're at it, why don't we give Hamas some leniency because of the "stress of occupation"? You're defending mass murderers, plain and simple. Mass murderers, whether U.S. servicemen or cladestine fanatics, deserve nothing short of extermination from this planet.





Actually I am sympathetic to Hamas, well, was. Yesterday they changed their mind about letting Israel exist so now Abbas and his security forces are trying to kill Hamas leaders and kick them out of office.

Apparently you haven't been keeping up with how effective the death penalty is at impeding crime. You are expressing revenge, a primitive emotion, the same emotion those soldiers experienced. Good job, you're just like them.


--------------------



http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: Redstorm]
    #5715967 - 06/05/06 05:44 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I'm all for getting rid of the Tookie's of this world


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"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: downforpot]
    #5715972 - 06/05/06 05:47 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I, on the other hand, am not sympathetic to Hamas. They may build schools and hospitals, but they also blow up women and children.


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: Basilides]
    #5715996 - 06/05/06 05:57 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Basilides said:
I, on the other hand, am not sympathetic to Hamas. They may build schools and hospitals, but they also blow up women and children.




Everybody is a killer. Hamas hasn't carried out a suicide attack in months by the way. Oh and did I mention I part Israeli, the jewish kind.

Tookie should have been kept alive. He's basically a "convert" but he should have admitted to killing those people when asking for clemency. He could have been used to teach kids about gang violence and that they should instead focus on school.


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"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"


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OfflinexDuckYouSuckerx
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Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: Redstorm]
    #5717060 - 06/05/06 10:06 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
Did 10 Habeebs pull out grenades and machine guns? I seemed to have missed that part when I read coverage on the incident.



Some did. The numbers don't matter. When terrorists hide in groups of civilians, civilians will die. Maybe the shroomery could mail the Terrorist a letter asking them nicely to blow our troops up at pre-selected locations so that we won't clip a few "innocents" in the process.


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Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #5717100 - 06/05/06 10:11 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

The_Red_Crayon said:
Ah so the entire people in the village are potential terrorists,




Yea thats the size of it.
Quote:


including women and children,




Extremists muslims don't seem too concerned about the gender or age of someone, unless it's to persecute them.
Quote:


Do you honestly think the entire village are terrorists,




It's hard to even expect that you know what "honest" is, after you've claimed that it was a "fact" that I wanted Marines to shoot babies, or whatever, and after you just said about a paragraph ago that the villagers, really everyone, is a POTENTIAL terrorist. Do I think that every Iraqi is a POTENTIAL terrorist? sure. Do I think that every villager is a terrorist? No, and I never said that I did. Do you honestly think that terrorists should be able to blow up Marines? Notwithstanding the fact that you didn't say that, I'm just slinging some invective and conjuring up opinions and straw-men to argue against.
Quote:


Divulge because you sure seem uneducated.




It's really none of your business. I don't feel a need to reveal personal information on a board relating to the felony of producing controlled substances. Just trust me on this one, MILES and MILES of experience, much more than the inch you claimed.
Quote:


How does this have absolutely anything to do with the Haditha incident, Do you even know the official story? Your just ranting off on psychobabble, Shrooming hippies? Your a nutcase.



Yea, well, why didn't you answer where you derived the "fact" that I supported killing innocents? Why didn't you even answer that? Did the voices in your head that told you what I believed not feed you an answer? You seem to be the one with either a lacking intellect or a warped view of reality.


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Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: xDuckYouSuckerx]
    #5717104 - 06/05/06 10:11 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

The armed forces have training just for these types of situations. Are you telling me that it is standar procedure to fire into a crowd if a hostile target moves into it? I call bullshit if you say yes to the previous question.


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Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: Basilides]
    #5717125 - 06/05/06 10:14 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Basilides said:
Awww, the poor war criminals.




Doubtful.
Quote:


Again, I don't care.



then drop it :smile:
Quote:


Death is what they've sowed. The fact that you're making excuses for them is somewhat reprehensible.




It's not an excuse, it's a reason.  Innocents die in war.  The bombing of Germany to end WWII, the bombing of Japan to end the Pacific campaign, noone lamented the deaths of the noncoms in those places.  Thats just how war is.  And I wish I could buy a neon sign, or perhaps a large hammer, with a message stating that IF the Marines did shoot unarmed people who were known to be noncom's, then they should be tried.


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Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: xDuckYouSuckerx]
    #5717427 - 06/05/06 11:43 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

There's a huge difference between collateral damage and war crimes. Considering the amount of innocent people who are consistently killed accidently by the coalition forces, it is doubtful that one of these incidents would some how become manipulated into a war crime.


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Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: Redstorm]
    #5718953 - 06/06/06 01:13 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
The armed forces have training just for these types of situations. Are you telling me that it is standar procedure to fire into a crowd if a hostile target moves into it? I call bullshit if you say yes to the previous question.




It's standard procedure to kill the bad guys. If the BG's want to hide in a mosque, we'll blow up the mosque. If they want to hide in a school and shoot rockets at us, we'll blow up the school. If they want to stand in a crowd of people, we'll shoot back. As I said, bullets aren't magical items, capable only of killing the bad guys. However, their tactics necessitate that we fight back and part and parcel of their tactics involves hiding amongst civilians.

Maybe the letter that you all write to the terrorists, expressing your regret in the deaths of a few Iraqis, you could nicely ask them to follow the rules of warfare. I don't see many posts here where the liberal left is out beating their chests demanding the blood of the terrorists.


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Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: xDuckYouSuckerx]
    #5719412 - 06/06/06 03:31 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Maybe because the line between who the actual terrorists are is growing fainter...


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Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: xDuckYouSuckerx]
    #5720219 - 06/06/06 06:58 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

xDuckYouSuckerx said:
Quote:

Redstorm said:
The armed forces have training just for these types of situations. Are you telling me that it is standar procedure to fire into a crowd if a hostile target moves into it? I call bullshit if you say yes to the previous question.




It's standard procedure to kill the bad guys.  If the BG's want to hide in a mosque, we'll blow up the mosque.  If they want to hide in a school and shoot rockets at us, we'll blow up the school.  If they want to stand in a crowd of people, we'll shoot back.  As I said, bullets aren't magical items, capable only of killing the bad guys.  However, their tactics necessitate that we fight back and part and parcel of their tactics involves hiding amongst civilians.

Maybe the letter that you all write to the terrorists, expressing your regret in the deaths of a few Iraqis, you could nicely ask them to follow the rules of warfare.  I don't see many posts here where the liberal left is out beating their chests demanding the blood of the terrorists.




Last year on CBC I caught an interview with an Iraqi insurgent. The interviewer asked the insurgent why so many women and children were killed in a bomb attack a week earlier. The insurgent replied that the bomber was attacking a U.S. convoy that happened to be mingling with locals (some soldiers were handing out candy to Iraqi children), and that all the innocents who were slaughtered were merely collateral damage because "the invader mixed with civilians". The insurgent even went on to say that all collateral deaths in the insurgency were "unfortunate".

The logic of warfare. Ironic, isn't it?  :rolleyes:


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Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: Basilides]
    #5720339 - 06/06/06 07:35 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Basilides said:
Last year on CBC I caught an interview with an Iraqi insurgent. The interviewer asked the insurgent why so many women and children were killed in a bomb attack a week earlier. The insurgent replied that the bomber was attacking a U.S. convoy that happened to be mingling with locals (some soldiers were handing out candy to Iraqi children), and that all the innocents who were slaughtered were merely collateral damage because "the invader mixed with civilians". The insurgent even went on to say that all collateral deaths in the insurgency were "unfortunate".

The logic of warfare. Ironic, isn't it?  :rolleyes:




Thats just the way that things are.  If you'd like to donate some land and encourage all people who want to fight to go there and fight, then thats how war will be.  Until then, war will occur in the streets of populated towns and in villages where noncom's live.  Until then, people who aren't active combatants will be shot by stray bullets, blown up by bombs and maimed by IED's.


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Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: xDuckYouSuckerx]
    #5720917 - 06/06/06 09:56 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

The least you can do is not enjoy every minute of it


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Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: xDuckYouSuckerx]
    #5720985 - 06/06/06 10:13 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

yes, innocents will always be killed in war. that's why you only go to war when absolutely nececessary, not when you want to - as was the case with Iraq. The invasion of Iraq was a neo-conservative strategy, not a war of defense.


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Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: Basilides]
    #5721521 - 06/07/06 12:41 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Basilides said:
The least you can do is not enjoy every minute of it




Where have I said that I enjoy it? Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean that you can make up straw-man arguments to make the other party look bad. War sucks, most definately.


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Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: Vvellum]
    #5721531 - 06/07/06 12:43 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

bi0 said:
yes, innocents will always be killed in war. that's why you only go to war when absolutely nececessary, not when you want to - as was the case with Iraq. The invasion of Iraq was a neo-conservative strategy, not a war of defense.




You brought up two points here. First, you concede that people will be killed in war and when the war is 'absolutely necessary', it's justifiable. Then you point the cause of the war, the belief that it's a neo-con strategy rather than a war of defense, as a reason for the killings being "wrong".

How, then, could you say that the soldier should be punished? If it's acknowledged that warfare does result in civilian casualities and that doesn't, per se, impy a malicious or evil intent in the minds of the attacker, then wouldn't the average soldier have to fight the same, wouldn't the bomber pilot drop his bombs the same and wouldn't the Navy crewman fire their missles the same if the war was "justified" or not? If you use your line, then you could only want the people that lead us to war to be tried for these murders.


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Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: xDuckYouSuckerx]
    #5721685 - 06/07/06 01:31 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

First, you concede that people will be killed in war and when the war is 'absolutely necessary', it's justifiable.




I never said killing innocents is justifiable, even if the war is just - only bound to happen. The point is to minimize this as much as possible, and when it does occur, punish the perpetrators of the crime to fullest extent of the law.


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Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: xDuckYouSuckerx]
    #5721975 - 06/07/06 04:46 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

You're talking about this incident as if it is collateral damage. It is not by the Geneva convention. A group of soldiers were hit with an IED, one of them died, all of them went ape shit and started gunning down women and children. They were not obeying orders. They were subordinates attempting to cover it up so higher command wouldn't know about it.

There are plenty of examples of what meets the standard of collateral damage in Iraq that involved small arms fire, not air strikes. A number of people, including a foreign European diplomat have been mistakened as a hostile and shot to death. This is entirely different than what is alleged to have happened in Haditha.


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Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: xDuckYouSuckerx]
    #5722274 - 06/07/06 09:32 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

you should read up: 4th Geneva Convention


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Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: Basilides]
    #5724054 - 06/07/06 07:24 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Basilides said:
You're talking about this incident as if it is collateral damage. It is not by the Geneva convention. A group of soldiers were hit with an IED, one of them died, all of them went ape shit and started gunning down women and children. They were not obeying orders. They were subordinates attempting to cover it up so higher command wouldn't know about it.



If they knew that the people they were shooting were unarmed and civilians, then they should be tried.  If they didn't, then they shouldn't.
Quote:


There are plenty of examples of what meets the standard of collateral damage in Iraq that involved small arms fire, not air strikes. A number of people, including a foreign European diplomat have been mistakened as a hostile and shot to death. This is entirely different than what is alleged to have happened in Haditha.



"alleged"

'nuff sed :wink:


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Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: Basilides]
    #8207241 - 03/28/08 04:57 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Basilides said:
I don't understand how a small group of servicemen can committ such a horrendous atrocity. Why? Is it gestalt psychosis? I don't understand how someone can be so filled with hate as to just massacre a bunch of innocent people.

These soldiers should get the death penalty.




Haditha Charges Against Tatum Dropped


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Haditha Charges Against Tatum Dropped

Friday, March 28, 2008






The Marine Corps dropped its case and gave full immunity Friday to a serviceman who was accused of involuntary manslaughter in a squad's killing of 24 Iraqis in Haditha in 2005.


The case against Lance Cpl. Stephen Tatum, 26, of Edmond, Okla., was dropped as jury selection was about to begin for his court-martial. The government has been seeking Tatum's testimony against the squad leader, Staff Sgt. Frank Wuterich of Meriden, Conn. [Editor's Note: Haditha Marines still need your help! Click here now.]


In addition to two counts of involuntary manslaughter, Tatum had been charged with reckless endangerment and aggravated assault. Tatum's attorney, Jack Zimmerman, said there was no agreement with the government before the dismissal.


''Absolutely, there is no deal,'' he said.


Zimmerman said Tatum would testify if called as a witness in future trials but that he would testify as a neutral witness, not a government witness.


Camp Pendleton spokesman Lt. Col. Sean Gibson said the dismissal was signed by Lt. Gen. Samuel Helland.


The case stemmed from a squad's assault in response to a roadside bombing that killed one Marine and wounded two others.


The government says Wuterich and another Marine shot five men at the scene and the squad leader then ordered his men to clear homes with grenades and gunfire, killing unarmed civilians. Wuterich faces nine counts of voluntary manslaughter, aggravated assault, reckless endangerment and obstruction of justice. There is no date set for Wuterich's court-martial.


Wuterich's civilian defense attorney, Neal Puckett, contended that the Tatum dismissal showed the government has a poor case against his client.


''I think it's a further demonstration of how weak the government's case has become. Of the four Marines who fired weapons that day only one still faces charges,'' Puckett said.


Four enlisted Marines were initially charged with murder and four officers were charged with failing to investigate the deaths. Over time the case has shrunk, including removal of all murder charges. Tatum was the third enlisted Marine to have all charges dismissed.Only two officers remain charged.


The highest-ranking defendant is Lt. Col. Jeffrey R. Chessani of Rangley, Colo., commander of the Camp Pendleton-based 3rd Battalion, 1st Marine Regiment at the time of the Nov. 19, 2005, Haditha killings. Chessani, accused of dereliction of duty and violation of a lawful order, has said he didn't order a formal investigation because he believed the deaths resulted from lawful combat.


http://www.newsmax.com/newsfront/Tatum_Haditha_no_charges/2008/03/28/83811.html?promo_code=2A89-1


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Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8207274 - 03/28/08 05:01 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

So far Eight were charged. Five have had all charges dropped.


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Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: xDuckYouSuckerx]
    #8209859 - 03/29/08 11:36 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

---


Edited by EntheogenicPeace (02/13/21 05:27 PM)


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Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8209871 - 03/29/08 11:47 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

---


Edited by EntheogenicPeace (02/13/21 05:27 PM)


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Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #8210131 - 03/29/08 12:48 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

When does his case come to trial?


Phred


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Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: Phred]
    #8210157 - 03/29/08 12:54 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

---


Edited by EntheogenicPeace (02/13/21 05:28 PM)


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Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #8210511 - 03/29/08 02:04 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

So wait a minute...

You say anyone who doesn't believe this defendant should get the death penalty (or at least life in prison if one opposes the death penalty universally), is (a) a pathetic excuse for a human being & (b) in no position whatsoever to claim moral highground on any issue, even though not only has the guy not been found guilty, but the trial hasn't even started yet.

That's being kinda judgmental, don'tcha think?



Phred


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Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: Phred]
    #8210695 - 03/29/08 02:58 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

---


Edited by EntheogenicPeace (02/13/21 05:29 PM)


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Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #8210759 - 03/29/08 03:20 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

So this guy should be put to death before his trial has been held, is what you're saying.

Shades of the Duke "gang rape" case.




Phred


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InvisibleEntheogenicPeace
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Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: Phred]
    #8211272 - 03/29/08 05:32 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

---


Edited by EntheogenicPeace (02/13/21 05:31 PM)


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Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #8211692 - 03/29/08 06:59 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

What does that have to do with Haditha?


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Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #8212102 - 03/29/08 08:27 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Don't be such an ass.

First of all, the rape incident has nothing to do with Haditha. So why is it even being discussed in this thread at all? Someone more suspicious than myself might say it's because you -- EntheogenicPeace -- absolutely cannot bear to see an American ever exonerated of anything (for example, the ever-increasing number of ex-defendants in the Haditha case), therefore you are impelled to drag some other American into the thread you can point to as guilty. And (if someone-more-suspicious-than-myself were to make such a suggestion) I admit I would have a very hard time refuting such a charge levelled against you, since that actually has been your modus operandi in this forum from the day you began posting here. Someone shows that not everything Americans do is bad? No problem, says EP! Americans killed the Sioux, after all.

Second, I have never given my opinion on even the guilt or innocence of the black dudes to whom you refer, much less my opinion on what penalty they should receive if found guilty.

Third, I am not defending any guilty parties. I merely asked when the trial determining whether this guy actually is a guilty party will be held.

So climb down off your high horse, unwind those knickers currently turning your testicles such a lovely shade of purple, and take a deep breath before you burst a blood vessel with your self-righteous yet misdirected indignation.




Phred


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Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: Basilides]
    #8213602 - 03/30/08 07:53 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

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http://atheism.about.com/cs/islamandviolence/

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/asiapcf/southeast/08/17/martyr.culture/index.html

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http://www.geocities.com/khola_mon/Islam.html

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http://www.truthtree.com/Debating/posts/755.html

http://www.isralert.com/archives/2005/03/deceit_thy_name.php

http://www.factsandlogic.org

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d191/zakirnaik/zakicaptured.gif

http://www.islamicthinkers.com/index/images/SHIAS_NO_MUSLIM.jpg

http://www.prophetofdoom.net/

http://www.venusproject.com/prophet_of_doom/toc.html

http://www.venusproject.com/prophet_of_doom/quotes1.html#terrorism

http://www.pmw.org.il/

http://tinyurl.com/ydc9qj




According to these links the Quran has been changed over time.

http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-myths-koran-manuscripts.htm

http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter8/3.html

http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Text/

http://www.jodkowski.pl/re/MBright.html

http://cremesti.com/amalid/Islam/Yemeni_Ancient_Koranic_Texts.htm

---------

http://www.americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=5197

http://www.americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=5237

http://www.americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=5258


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InvisibleEntheogenicPeace
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Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: Phred]
    #8213915 - 03/30/08 10:44 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

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Edited by EntheogenicPeace (02/13/21 05:33 PM)


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #8214037 - 03/30/08 11:27 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

If a poor black person in the U.S. murders a white civilian, then they get a very severe penalty (which can include death); & I won't argue with that.




You prove my point. You are incapable of staying on topic, if developments show that the Americans in question may not be evil people after all.

This thread isn't about the sentences civilian murderers (of whatever color) receive in the United States, this thread is about whether or not the actions of a specific group of marines on a specific mission in Iraq on a specific day can rightfully be considered murder or cannot rightfully be considered murder.

Quote:

However, if U.S. military personal murder a civilian in a country that they are occupying, then the penalty is much less severe, if at all.




You don't even read your own links, do you? You just plow on ahead, regurgitating whatever the reflexive Lefty party line happens to be, regardless of fact. When's the last time a black civilian murderer in the United States received a 110 year sentence?

Quote:

Because you have yet to address this discrepancy philosophically, you have to nitpick semantics & hide behind the propaganda of the state instead of addressing the fundamental issue independently of what the official line is.




The penalties in the military justice are substantially more severe than they are in the civilian justice system. This isn't semantic nitpicking, it's fact. As for "hiding" behind "propaganda" and not addressing the "fundamental issue", I'd say holding a trial before handing down a sentence is pretty fundamental. I realize you consider such procedures as trials to be needless nitpicking, but hey.... what should I expect from a Lefty?

Quote:

Here is but one instance you refuse to address objectively & independently regarding justice being served.




I don't "refuse" to address it, I merely point out that once again you are introducing off-topic stuff into a thread about the Haditha marines because you can't bear the thought that what the Haditha marines were accused of doing turns out not to be what actually occurred.



Phred


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InvisibleEntheogenicPeace
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Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: Phred]
    #8214820 - 03/30/08 02:15 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

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Edited by EntheogenicPeace (02/13/21 05:33 PM)


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #8214949 - 03/30/08 02:41 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Again, you must have not read the links.




I read the links. None of them said even when the guy's trial is scheduled to begin. Certainly none of the links said the guy had been found guilty.

However, it's irrelevant, since the date of this other guy's trial has nothing to do with the fact that the longer the investigation continues, the more Haditha marines are exonerated of the charge of murder.

Quote:

If you are not capable or unwilling to discuss philosophy on this issue, & wish to defer to the U.S. government to make this decision for you, then just say so.




This has nothing to do with "philosophy" and everything to do with fact. The facts of the case are being revealed as the investigations continue, and they show that whatever those marines did on that day, it cannot legally be considered "murder". This is why the charges are being dropped.



Phred


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #8215022 - 03/30/08 03:01 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

EntheogenicPeace said:

If a poor black person in the U.S. murders a white civilian, then they get a very severe penalty




WTF


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America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

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InvisibleEntheogenicPeace
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Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8215568 - 03/30/08 05:20 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

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Edited by EntheogenicPeace (02/13/21 05:34 PM)


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InvisibleEntheogenicPeace
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Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: Phred]
    #8215639 - 03/30/08 05:37 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

---


Edited by EntheogenicPeace (02/13/21 05:35 PM)


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #8215727 - 03/30/08 06:06 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quite a larger population of black males are in prison for crimes they did commit. Mostly against other black people.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #8216466 - 03/30/08 08:48 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

You are unable to possess a thought outside of what the fox guarding the henhouse tells you.




Au contraire. Unlike you -- a creature of reflexive Commie kneejerk sloganeering -- I am capable of rational thought. I am capable of making a distinction between Tyrone capping DeAndre on a Chicago street corner over a turf dispute and marines on patrol in a war zone faced with the need to make split second decisions. Have there been times when American troops killed Iraqis where the killings can be determined to fit any reasonable person's definition of "murder"? Certainly. Was Haditha one of those times? The more the results of the investigation are revealed, the more it becomes apparent that it wasn't one of those times.

And that's what this thread is about -- the rush to judgment by creatures such as John Murtha on matters of which they know exactly zero.

Quote:

You are precisely demonstrating my point about not be able to analyze an ethical situation independent from government propaganda.




Oh the irony. Even if every single person involved in this event were to be hooked up to a foolproof lie detector and their stories verified, you would refuse to believe them. Why? Because they are American. Don't talk to me about propaganda, comrade.

Quote:

Who decides what is murder?




In a war zone? Military tribunals. As your own links have shown, military tribunals have convicted and sentenced American troops for murder. More than once. This time, however, they have found that the majority of the defendants (and perhaps all of them... we have to wait and see) did not murder. Sorry about that, EP. I realize this frustrates you no end, but insulting me won't change facts on the ground.

Quote:

A philosophical assessment of a situation...




Which you have demonstrated yourself incapable of performing. You refuse to acknowledge the core philosophical distinction between what Tyrone is doing when he caps a drug rival or mugs a little old lady for her welfare check and what troops in a war zone do.

Quote:

...or the dictations of a self-serving entity who has demonstrated millions upon millions of time that it has no use for "justice" other than for a positive public relation stunt?




*Yawn* More mindless and baseless exaggerated Commie drivel.

Quote:

To trust a government to be objective in determining what is murder (or anything else)... a government that has let a convicted mass murderer go free after three and a half years confinement... is even more intellectually pathetic than to trust it regarding its pronouncements regarding "drugs".




So who should be entrusted with determining what is murder, comrade? Workers Councils? Tribal Collectives? Al Gore?

Quote:

You represent the outwardly delusions but internal greed of right-wing commentators who mock government financial incompetence ...blahblah blah seething incoherent Leftie mindless hate-filled drivel blah blah blah lack of rational thought blah blah blah...




Seriously.... there isn't any point engaging with someone so over-amped on mindless partisan hatred that they can't stitch three coherent sentences together. Take a valium and a few tequila shots, get some sleep, and move on. You're boring the hell out of the rest of us.




Phred


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InvisibleEntheogenicPeace
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Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: Phred]
    #8216810 - 03/30/08 09:44 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

---


Edited by EntheogenicPeace (02/13/21 05:38 PM)


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Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8216957 - 03/30/08 10:10 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

---


Edited by EntheogenicPeace (02/13/21 05:38 PM)


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OfflineMushmonkey
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Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #8223035 - 04/01/08 04:13 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

EntheogenicPeace said:
Quote:

I am capable of rational thought.


Perhaps, but you've yet to demonstrate it. Until you can justify how murderers wearing a badge or a uniform representing the U.S. government do not deserve the same penalty (or no penalty at all in countless cases) as a murderer coming from a poor background in the U.S. is consistent with the phrase "Equal Justice Under Law", you haven't offered an explanation as to how such a system exemplifies 'justice', although you strongly assert it does.





Here's the difference.


Collectively, society is asking and sending these guys off somewhere with a bunch of guns and telling them to kill people.

Which people? The *bad* people.

Usually, they get it right. Sometimes, they get it wrong. Sometimes, they don't even try to discriminate. Sometimes, they know they've got it wrong but they do it anyway.

Each situation is different. Murder would only be the last -- when they know the people they are killing should not be killed but do so anyway. The first they get medals for. The second, if it's an honest mistake, they basically get a slap on the wrists. The third, they get punished, but it's more gross-negligence type shit and not outright murder.

That's different than, say, me shooting you, because I KNOW I shouldn't be shooting you (unless it was for self defense, in which case I SHOULD be shooting you and, shockingly, I wouldn't be punished for that at all!)



You are looking at sentencing and incarceration as a form of REVENGE. That is not what it is, and that is not how we decide what to charge people with when the option exists. It is a form of punishment with intents to rehabilitate.

If it was simply for revenge, any killing would recieve the same sentence.
As it is, mitigating circumstances change the punishment. Somebody who plans out a killing is a much greater threat to society than someone who falls asleep while driving and hits someone. Therefor the first killer gets a very harsh sentence, while the latter gets a lighter sentence.

A premeditated murder between civilians gets a harsh penalty, but so does a premeditated murder by a soldier -- the definition for murder from a soldier is much more specific, because killing people is exactly their job.


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Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: Phred]
    #8228509 - 04/02/08 12:49 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

The problem with Haditha is that soldiers are strained by being stop-lossed and some are in their 5th or 6th tours of combat, combined with a iraq populace that cares little for your efforts of taking them out of their stoneage. Each haditha creates another 10,000 terrorists and its events like these that are capitalized by the insurgents to show people that the americans are barbaric occupiers with little regard to human life while their own actions frequently kill their own people.

Iraq is fought on a scale of comfortability by politicians and generals who have little or no combat experience, in the beginning they made foolish actions, dissolving the iraqi army and police, dissolving their infrastructure and the result was energy shortages that still plague Baghdad and most Iraq, the destruction of water treatment plants, oil refineries and hospitals by insurgents still has the country plunged in extreme poverty. The destruction has zapped Iraqi coffers and it rests squarely on the Iran, the insurgents and America, The people who have everything to gain and everything to lose.

This will not be a whizz-bang war, it will last for years and it will only boil over into more violence.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #8228649 - 04/02/08 01:24 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

The problem with Haditha is that nattering nitwits forced a fraudulent prosecution on completely innocent soldiers out of some post-Vietnam hatred of the military. The greatest post stress disorder in this country is to our resolution to act because of the lies fed by cocksuckers like John Kerry and the Winter Soldier liars. It has polluted the thought processes of a great many people, a resoundingly huge number of whom weren't even alive then.


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Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8228659 - 04/02/08 01:26 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Well prosecuting people for murder in the middle of a warzone is like handing out speeding tickets at the Indy 500.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #8228683 - 04/02/08 01:33 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Not always.


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8231414 - 04/02/08 11:18 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
The problem with Haditha is that nattering nitwits forced a fraudulent prosecution on completely innocent soldiers out of some post-Vietnam hatred of the military.




:rolleyes:

but its Soooo Cooooool.


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America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

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